Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Erik Nelson]

It is in the text, if you know anything about geology.

Look at the text below.

"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Do you realize how powerful the earthquake would have to be that moved "every" island and destroyed the mountains?
It would kill every human on the planet.
Do you deny this fact?



The text of 2 Peter 3:10-13, says the earth will be "burned up" and "dissolved" on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Does He "come as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16?

Put some salt in water and "dissolve" it.
Imagine that happening to the earth.

What does it mean to you when something is "burned up"?



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


When does Christ "come as a thief" ?

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Both of those texts make it clear that the earth as we know it will be destroyed, at His Second Coming.

Am I adding anything to the text, by not ignoring the text that kills your premill doctrine?


.

Armageddon in Rev 16 is unambiguously tied to "Babylon" on the "Euphrates" being destroyed. "Thief in the night" unambiguously echoes the Olivet Discourse warning Christians about the doom of Jerusalem, where Christ "the Lord was Crucified" (Rev 11:8). Even the reference to clothing echoes OT punishments of national Judah & Babylon. Armageddon = 70 AD fall of Jerusalem:

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible Back

16:15 stays awake and remains clothed. Cf. Jesus’ words in Mt 24:43; Lk 12:39; see note on 3:3. Many people did not wear much to bed when it was warm. be shamefully exposed. Being stripped or otherwise publicly exposed was considered shameful (cf. 3:18). In the OT God stripped his people (Eze 16:37; Hos 2:3) and Babylon (Isa 47:3) for infidelity, following an ancient Near Eastern custom (see note on Rev 17:16).
​

 

[Riberra]

Is God king over the earth? Is Jesus God? Where does God rule from, if not heaven where Jesus is? Seated on David's Throne at the Father's right hand in heavenly Jerusalem above? How would he ever rule here after saying his kingdom is not of this world?

So you think that Jesus is actually ruling the Nations with a rod of iron ?
Revelation 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: AND HE SHALL rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

If you notice Revelation 19:15 is future tense
Revelation 19:15
...and he SHALL rule them with a rod of iron:

Again you have been proved wrong by Scripture.

 

[Riberra]

It is in the text, if you know anything about geology.

Look at the text below.

"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Do you realize how powerful the earthquake would have to be that moved "every" island and destroyed the mountains?
It would kill every human on the planet.
Do you deny this fact?

The BIBLICAL proof that there will be people still alive after the terrible earthquake of the 7 Th Vial is in Revelation 16:17-21
Revelation 16:17-21
17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done: 18 and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men upon the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And great hail, [every stone] about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

Again the Scripture prove your argument wrong.

 

[Dave L]

So you think that Jesus is actually ruling the Nations with a rod of iron ?
Revelation 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: AND HE SHALL rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

If you notice Revelation 19:15 is future tense
Revelation 19:15
...and he SHALL rule them with a rod of iron:

Again you have been proved wrong by Scripture.

If you read Revelation chronologically you will run into difficulties. But if you read it as 7 parallel accounts of the same events beginning at the time of writing up to the end of the world and the creation of the new heavens and earth, it will make sense.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” (Revelation 1:1)

This is the method used in the oldest commentary yet found. Called the Recapitulation view of Revelation.

 

[Riberra]

If you read Revelation chronologically you will run into difficulties. But if you read it as 7 parallel accounts of the same events beginning at the time of writing up to the end of the world and the creation of the new heavens and earth, it will make sense.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” (Revelation 1:1)

This is the method used in the oldest commentary yet found. Called the Recapitulation view of Revelation.

So you should have no difficulties to prove your argument by showing that the First Seal -The First Trumpet and the First Vial are supposed to talk about the same event based on your interpretation.

Do that untill you reach the 7 Th Seal ...The 7 Trumpet and the 7Th Vial and you will realize that in reality they talk about different events.

The events described at the opening of the 7 Seals will happen before the events described to happen during the 7 Trumpets plagues ...And the Events described to happen during the 7 Trumpets plagues will happen before the 7 Vials of the Wrath of God.

 

[Dave L]

So you should have no difficulties to prove your argument by showing that the First Seal -The First Trumpet and the First Vial are supposed to talk about the same event based on your interpretation.

Do that untill you reach the 7 Th Seal ...The 7 Trumpet and the 7Th Vial and you will realize that in reality they talk about different events.

They present different views of the same events.

 

[Riberra]

They present different views of the same events.

Prove it

Begin with
The First Seal ,The First Trumpet and The First Vial and prove us that they are talking about the same event....I bet that you will never attempt to give it a try.

--------------
The Biblical chronology of the events described in the Book of Revelation goes like this:

The events described at the opening of the 7 Seals will happen before the events described to happen during the 7 Trumpets plagues ...And the Events described to happen during the 7 Trumpets plagues will happen before the 7 Vials of the Wrath of God.

 

[Dave L]

Prove it

Begin with
The First Seal ,The First Trumpet and The First Vial and prove us that they are talking about the same event....I bet that you will never attempt to give it a try.

--------------
The Biblical chronology of the events described in the Book of Revelation goes like this:

The events described at the opening of the 7 Seals will happen before the events described to happen during the 7 Trumpets plagues ...And the Events described to happen during the 7 Trumpets plagues will happen before the 7 Vials of the Wrath of God.

Can prove all of the judgments are yet future? John says they are not, but things which must shortly come to pass. If you can accept this, then I can point out the similarities.

 

[Riberra]

Can prove all of the judgments are yet future? John says they are not, but things which must shortly come to pass. If you can accept this, then I can point out the similarities.

-The things which must shortly come to pass-
Was about a Judgment that was to happen [soon/shortly) upon the 7 Churches that were in existence when John have written the Book of Revelation in 90 AD........Revelation 2 And Revelation 3 concerned that Judgment [The things which must shortly come to pass/a Judgment] upon the 7 Churches that were in existence when John wrote the Book of Revelation.

Do you agree with that ?

 

[BABerean2]

The BIBLICAL proof that there will be people still alive after the terrible earthquake of the 7 Th Vial is in Revelation 16:17-21

Based on your chronology, Christ does not judge the living at His return in Matthew 25:31-46, because it would leave no mortals for your millennium.

Based on your chronology, Christ does not judge both the living and the dead at His return in 2 Timothy 4:1, because it destroys your millennium.

Based on your chronology, Christ does not return "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, because the fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20, and that ruins your millennium.

Based on you chronology, "the time of the judgment of the dead" is not in Revelation 11:18, because it ruins your millennium.


Based on your chronology, Christ returns "as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16, and then He returns again later in Revelation chapter 19.

.

 

[Dave L]

-The things which must shortly come to pass-
Was about a Judgment that was to happen [soon/shortly) upon the 7 Churches that were in existence when John have written the Book of Revelation in 90 AD........Revelation 2 And Revelation 3 concerned that Judgment [The things which must shortly come to pass/a Judgment] upon the 7 Churches that were in existence when John wrote the Book of Revelation.

Do you agree with that ?

No. It all began coming to pass during the time written. But you look for the symbols to appear and miss what they represent. Hint, there ain't gonna be any red dragons or green horses floating around in outer space. But everything they represent has been going on since John wrote Revelation.

 

[Riberra]

No. It all began coming to pass during the time written. But you look for the symbols to appear and miss what they represent. Hint, there ain't gonna be any red dragons or green horses floating around in outer space. But everything they represent has been going on since John wrote Revelation.

Bab ,Bab,Bab
You begin by arguing that everyone on the Earth will be killed by the great Earthquake mentioned in Revelation 16:18

I have shown you that the Bible tell us that there are people who blaspheme God after the Earthquake ....

Revelation 16:19-21 proves it.

Which prove my point that the Great Earthquake mentioned in Revelation 16:18 will happen BEFORE [few hours before] the Battle of Armageddon .

 

[BABerean2]

Armageddon = 70 AD fall of Jerusalem:

You have gone too far toward the preterist side of the road, and off the road surface.

The dividing line between the events of 70 AD and Christ's Second Coming comes between Luke 21:24, and Luke 21:25.

We are not now living in the New Heavens and New Earth.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Bab ,Bab,Bab
You begin by arguing that everyone on the Earth will be killed by the great Earthquake mentioned in Revelation 16:18

I have shown you that the Bible tell us that there are people who blaspheme God after the Earthquake ....

Revelation 16:19-21 proves it.

Which prove my point that the Great Earthquake mentioned in Revelation 16:18 will happen BEFORE [few hours before] the Battle of Armageddon .

Go to the closest college to your home and ask a geology professor what would happen to the people living on this planet during an earthquake powerful enough to destroy all of the mountains on the earth.

Then come back here and give us his answer.

He might be an unbiased witness, who is not trying to make your premill doctrine work...

.

 

[Riberra]

No. It all began coming to pass during the time written. But you look for the symbols to appear and miss what they represent. Hint, there ain't gonna be any red dragons or green horses floating around in outer space. But everything they represent has been going on since John wrote Revelation.

That is right to say that the events described to happen thereafter [Revelation 4]... [beginning with the 7 Seals [Revelation 6]and later the 7 Trumpets Plagues [Revelation 8 ,,Revelation 9 ]and the 7 Vials of the WRATH OF GOD [Revelation 16]will covers the period of time UNTIL THE COMING OF JESUS IN GLORY TO PHYSICALLY REIGN ON THE EARTH WITH A ROD OF IRON.

 

[Riberra]

Go to the closest college to your home and ask a geology professor what would happen to the people living on this planet during an earthquake powerful enough to destroy all of the mountains on the earth.

Then come back here and give us his answer.

He might be an unbiased witness, who is not trying to make your premill doctrine work...

Ask everyone who rescue survivors after an Earthquake and they will tell you that the only thing who kills people during an Earthquake is the pile of debris falling on them.. .

Example :every one relaxing in central park in New York during the Great Earthquake Revelation 16:18 will be safe while mostly everyone inside the buildings will be killed because of the pile of debris falling on them. ..NUFF SAID !

 

[keras]

Can prove all of the judgments are yet future? John says they are not, but things which must shortly come to pass. If you can accept this, then I can point out the similarities.

The first five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascent to heaven. Revelation 5:7
This is simply proved by all the wars, famines and economic disaster we have experienced since then. But mainly the proof is the Fifth Seal; of all the martyrs since Stephen, having their souls kept under the Altar in heaven. Jesus will bring them with Him and resurrect them, at His Return.
Similarities do not make any of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls the same events.

 

[BABerean2]

Ask everyone who rescue survivors after an Earthquake and they will tell you that the only thing who kills people during an Earthquake is the pile of debris falling on them.. .

Example :every one relaxing in central park in New York during the Great Earthquake Revelation 16:18 will be safe while mostly everyone inside the buildings will be killed because of the pile of debris falling on them. ..NUFF SAID !

I did not realize that you had earned a doctorate in geology.

Thank you for the answer, Dr. Riberra...

.

 

[Riberra]

I did not realize that you had earned a doctorate in geology.

Thank you for the answer, Dr. Riberra...

You don't have a doctorate in geology either !

So, you think that people outside of any buildings ----let say farmers in an open field without any thing that risk to fall on them can be killed because the ground is shaking badly ? Seriously !

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4j5oTgfvHtY/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you read Revelation chronologically you will run into difficulties. But if you read it as 7 parallel accounts of the same events beginning at the time of writing up to the end of the world and the creation of the new heavens and earth, it will make sense.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” (Revelation 1:1)
This is the method used in the oldest commentary yet found. Called the Recapitulation view of Revelation.

This appears to perhaps be a little better rendering....."in swiftness".....

Revelation 1:1
A revealing of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him,
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True.
And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him, to show to the bond-servents of Him
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Same exact form and phrase used in Acts 22 and which City is mentioned?

Acts 22:
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste! and get thee out of Jerusalem In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>,
for they will not receive thy testimony concerning Me.