Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Riberra]

And how are those on the earth at the end of Revelation chapter 6 seeing Jesus on His throne in the third heaven?

Do they have some type of special video camera that lets them see what is happening in the third heaven?

If Jesus decide to be visible sitting on His Throne in Heaven to all men on the Earth to see Him during the 6Th Seal Events, whatever it be in a ''Worldwide VISION'' or by other means He can do it.

Some OT Prophets have seen God sitting on His Throne in Heaven in a VISION and John have seen The Throne Room of God in a VISION as well.

 

[Riberra]

It still speaks of a spiritual reality in heaven and not a physical earthly kingdom.

You are totally wrong.
The Biblical proof showing how wrong you are is:
Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

 

[BABerean2]

If Jesus decide to be visible sitting on His Throne in Heaven to all men on the Earth to see Him during the 6Th Seal Events, whatever it be in a ''Worldwide VISION'' or by other means He can do it.

Some OT Prophets have seen God sitting on His Throne in Heaven in a VISION and John have seen The Throne Room of God in a VISION as well.

Were those in the OT who saw God sitting on His throne unbelievers?

Show us the scripture to prove that point.

Or are you once again trying to make your premill doctrine work?

Do you understand the difference between this rotten, sin-curse earth, and the New Heavens and New Earth found in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

They are both just as real as the computer I am now using.

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[Riberra]

Were those in the OT who saw God sitting on His throne unbelievers?

Show us the scripture to prove that point.

If Jesus decide to be visible to the unbelievers -sitting on His Throne in Heaven during the 6Th Seal Events TO GET THEM IN FEARS- --->THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS REPORTED By John IN REVELATION 6:15-17 .
REVELATION 6:16
16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and Hide Us From The Face Of Him That Sitteth On The Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

Or are you once again trying to make your premill doctrine work?

Do you understand the difference between this rotten, sin-curse earth, and the New Heavens and New Earth found in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

They are both just as real as the computer I am now using.

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[/COLOR]The New Heaven and New Earth mentioned in [Revelation 21]is Cited to Happen AFTER the 1,000 years physical kingdom of Jesus on the Earth mentioned in Revelation 20 that you ignore.

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Revelation 20:4-6

 

[BABerean2]

The New Heaven and New Earth mentioned in [Revelation 21]is Cited to Happen AFTER the 1,000 years physical kingdom of Jesus on the Earth mentioned in Revelation 20 that you ignore.

I don't ignore it.

I understand that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order and that it is full of symbolic language. In Revelation 1:20 Christ says the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches.

Is the chain in Revelation 20 made of steel, or is it made of the blood of Christ?

Is Satan put in a hole in the ground, with a steel lid?

Do you think Satan would not be able to get out of a real hole in the ground?

The 1,000 years in Revelation 20 is found after "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18.
It is symbolic of the Church Age.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Christ returns "in flaming fire".
When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

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[Riberra]

I don't ignore it.

I understand that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order and that it is full of symbolic language

We know that you don't like the order of the Book of Revelation who begin with Revelation Chapter 1 and End in Revelation Chapter 22.


So, lets try with something more clearer who have no symbolic language .
A text using a crystal clear language:

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT BIBLICAL TEXT WRITTEN IN PLAIN LANGUAGE?

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: IN THAT DAY shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

 

[keras]

Revelation 16:15-16 says nothing about those being eaten by wild animals.
Does that mean it is not referring to Armageddon?

Revelation 19:17-18 also describes Armageddon. Their flesh will be eaten by wild animals.
But at the Sixth Seal, the dead become ashes. Malachi 4:1 & 3, Isaiah 66:15-16, Jeremiah 11:16

You claim a solar Coronal Mass Ejection is going to cause tremendous change on the planet.
Does the sun darken during a CME event or does it get brighter?

Both. The sun will flash intensely brightly; like seven days brightness in one, then the ejected mass will obscure the sun from us, causing darkness for 24 hours, as the mass approaches. There are many prophesies that say how people will be terrified then, as they see their doom approaching. Ezekiel 7:17

Could the two verses below be related in any way, if viewed by an unbiased witness?

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

They do read differently. Moved and disappeared are not the same.
If they just refer to earthquakes, then they are a common occurrence. There are several prophesied to come yet.
Your denial of a forthcoming world changing event, is an rejection of the Prophetic Word and of historical facts. Civilizations do not last forever and our current one surely won't either.

 

[BABerean2]

Both. The sun will flash intensely brightly; like seven days brightness in one, then the ejected mass will obscure the sun from us, causing darkness for 24 hours, as the mass approaches.

Can you explain how Hydrogen and Helium Gas are going to turn from colorless gases into opaque gases?

I have produced Hydrogen Gas from water in my science class on many occasions by using electrolysis of water. The gas was transparent.

Release Helium Gas from a balloon and look at it. It is invisible.

Once again, what you are claiming does not match the laws of physics or the Word of God.

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[BABerean2]

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: IN THAT DAY shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.



Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

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[Riberra]

Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Do you agree that Jesus WILL REIGN PHYSICALLY OVER ALL THE EARTH IN THAT DAY---->WHICH IS THE DAY OF HIS COMING AT THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON ...The Day when His feet will touch the Mount Of Olives who will be split in two?

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: IN THAT DAY shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:1-4
1 Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[keras]

Can you explain how Hydrogen and Helium Gas are going to turn from colorless gases into opaque gases?

I have produced Hydrogen Gas from water in my science class on many occasions by using electrolysis of water. The gas was transparent.

Release Helium Gas from a balloon and look at it. It is invisible.

Once again, what you are claiming does not match the laws of physics or the Word of God.
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Its to your discredit that you fail to find out the facts of a Coronal Mass Ejection.
The ejecta, multi billion tons of it; will consist of superheated Hydrogen plasma, that will obscure the sun from the earth as it approaches, travelling at 3-5 million mph. This and the initial Electro Magnetic Pulse flash, will literally fulfil all the well described prophesies about the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. The Sixth Seal event, Revelation 6:12-17 and over 100 other prophesies tell us all about it.
About 10-15 years will pass from that Day until Jesus Returns, in order for all that in prophesied in that time to happen.

 

[BABerean2]

Its to your discredit that you fail to find out the facts of a Coronal Mass Ejection.
The ejecta, multi billion tons of it; will consist of superheated Hydrogen plasma, that will obscure the sun from the earth as it approaches, travelling at 3-5 million mph. This and the initial Electro Magnetic Pulse flash, will literally fulfil all the well described prophesies about the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. The Sixth Seal event, Revelation 6:12-17 and over 100 other prophesies tell us all about it.
About 10-15 years will pass from that Day until Jesus Returns, in order for all that in prophesied in that time to happen.

Those of us who have built Tesla Coils, or have seen lightning pass through the air, or have seen the Northern Lights, know that superheated plasmas produce light, instead of producing darkness.

I have a Tesla Coil about the same size as the one in this video.

Where did you get your training in the area of physics?

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[BABerean2]

Do you agree that Jesus WILL REIGN PHYSICALLY OVER ALL THE EARTH IN THAT DAY---->WHICH IS THE DAY OF HIS COMING AT THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON ...The Day when His feet will touch the Mount Of Olives who will be split in two?

When His sinless heel described in Genesis 3:15 touches the Mount of Olives it will begin an earthquake starting a chain reaction destroying this whole planet.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Rev_16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

All those in flesh bodies will be killed, unless they are transformed, as found below.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

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[Erik Nelson]

How do we square that with this then?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

on such the second death hath no power. The 2nd death involves the LOF. Who does the text indicate the 2nd death has no power over? These---he that hath part in the first resurrection----or these----the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished? It can't be both, can it? If it is the former rather than the latter, how can the former not be a bodily resurrection? And if it is a bodily resurrection, how can we then already be in the millennium? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see any bodily resurrected saints walking around and presently living on the earth among us mortals.

As to your passage you submitted. Why can't it mean this?

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That makes them dead at that point, right? But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Until the thousand years expires first, how can they fulfill Revelation 20:11-15, where it is in that context that they receive their eternal punishment?

so...

• 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 = Rev 19 = second coming
• second death = cast into the Lake of Fire (at Final Judgment) = Rev 20

?

So what is your millennium? One day or one thousand years or neither? I say it is neither. Your problems arise when you make the 1000 the kingdom. When it represents the binding of Satan. Satan is loosed when it ends.....

You are correct, the Millennium is not the Kingdom. However, the Millennium is the Kingdom reigning over society, as the socially dominant majority.

The Kingdom began with Christ. But the Kingdom was then just a minority fringe movement for several centuries. In the Millennium, it becomes the socially dominant majority.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life---is meaning the first resurrection. That includes the resurrection of all of the saved since the beginning of time.

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation---is meaning when the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are finished. That includes the resurrection of all of the lost since the beginning of time.

This kills two birds with one stone, so to speak. It debunks both Amil and Pretrib.

Only a very special select class of persons participates in the first resurrection. Namely Christian martyrs who were beheaded like Saint Paul. As written. Not even the Apostles, who were crucified. Would take part in the first resurrection? Only those like Saint Paul, who were Roman citizens and who therefore. Were beheaded instead of crucified? For their witness to Christianity would partake of the first resurrection.

Think we cannot conclude anyone else participates in the very special first resurrection for beheaded Christian martyrs under the beast. During the tribulations preceding the Millennium.

Apparently those who were beheaded for their witness to Christianity during the tribulations under the beast. Prior to the Millennium have so proved their faithfulness to God that even after resurrecting and raining in whatever says 4000 years with Christ plus all the extra days and months and years of gog and Magog after the Millennium. At no point in that more than most 1000 year time are they going to sin. Somehow, they have so proved their faith to God that they are guaranteed not to sin into damnation at the last judgment.

 

[BABerean2]

Only a very special select class of persons participates in the first resurrection. Namely Christian martyrs who were beheaded like Saint Paul. As written. Not even the Apostles, who were crucified. Would take part in the first resurrection? Only those like Saint Paul, who were Roman citizens and who therefore. Were beheaded instead of crucified? For their witness to Christianity would partake of the first resurrection.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(This is the first resurrection.)

What would you call it if someone was dead and then they came back to life?


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(This is the Second Resurrection, which is of the body.)

It is the first step in the judgment of the dead, whose timing is found in Revelation 11:18.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(This is the first resurrection.)

What would you call it if someone was dead and then they came back to life?


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(This is the Second Resurrection, which is of the body.)

It is the first step in the judgment of the dead, whose timing is found in Revelation 11:18.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Believing on Christ guarantees Salvation yes of course. And also only a very select group of people participate in the first resurrection, namely them who were beheaded. For witness to Christianity under the beast during the tribulations prior to the Millennium.

 

[keras]

Where did you get your training in the area of physics?

Why do you conflate a hydrogen mass with an electric current?

If you bothered to look up studies on CME's, you would find out that a huge ejected mass from the sun, aimed directly at the earth; absolutely would obscure it. As this CME will be of an unprecedented magnitude, so scientists are really clueless about its effects.
But Bible Prophecy plainly informs us:
Isaiah 50:3 I can clothe the sky in darkness, cover it with sackcloth.

Amos 5:20 The Day of the Lord is indeed a Day of deep darkness.

Ezekiel 32:7-8 I will veil the sky with clouds and bring darkness over the land.

Zephaniah 1:15 The Day of the Lord’s anger will be a Day of destruction, of darkness and gloom.

Amos 8:9 On that Day, the sun will darken at noon. [after the initial flash]

Revelation 6:12...the sun turned black as a funeral pall and the whole moon blood red.

Psalms 18:11 He made thick darkness His covering, dense vapour His canopy.

Jeremiah 4:23 The earth was in chaos and the sky was in darkness.

 

[Riberra]

When His sinless heel described in Genesis 3:15 touches the Mount of Olives it will begin an earthquake starting a chain reaction destroying this whole planet.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Rev_16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

All those in flesh bodies will be killed, unless they are transformed, as found below.

The Terrible Earthquake of the 7 TH VIAL mentioned in Revelation 16:17-19 will happen few moment BEFORE the Battle of Armageddon ...

Do you know that the only thing who kill people during an Earthquake is the pile of debris falling on them when they are inside their house or inside a building...everyone outside will be safe if they are not close of the buildings being broken apart and the resulting falling debris.

All those who are assembled in the Valley of Megiddo will still be alive...UNTIL THAT JESUS DESTROY THEM Revelation 19:11-21.
Revelation 16:17-20
17 And the seventh poured out his Vial upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done: 18 and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since there were men upon the earth, so great an earthquake, so mighty.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, And The Cities Of The Nations Fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

By the way, when Jesus' sinless feet will touch the Mount of Olives the text say that The Mount of Olives will be split in two [Zechariah 14:1-4]....no mention of a supposed chain reaction ''destroying this whole planet apart'' that came out of your imagination...Stick with what is written in the Biblical text...never try to add something to the text which is not there.

 

[Dave L]

You are totally wrong.
The Biblical proof showing how wrong you are is:
Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD SHALL BE KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Is God king over the earth? Is Jesus God? Where does God rule from, if not heaven where Jesus is? Seated on David's Throne at the Father's right hand in heavenly Jerusalem above? How would he ever rule here after saying his kingdom is not of this world?

 

[BABerean2]

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

By the way, when Jesus' sinless feet will touch the Mount of Olives the text say that The Mount of Olives will be split in two [Zechariah 14:1-4]....no mention of a supposed chain reaction ''destroying this whole planet apart'' that came out of your imagination...Stick with what is written in the Biblical text...never try to add something to the text which is not there.

It is in the text, if you know anything about geology.

Look at the text below.

"And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Do you realize how powerful the earthquake would have to be that moved "every" island and destroyed the mountains?
It would kill every human on the planet.
Do you deny this fact?



The text of 2 Peter 3:10-13, says the earth will be "burned up" and "dissolved" on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Does He "come as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16?

Put some salt in water and "dissolve" it.
Imagine that happening to the earth.

What does it mean to you when something is "burned up"?



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


When does Christ "come as a thief" ?

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Both of those texts make it clear that the earth as we know it will be destroyed, at His Second Coming.

Am I adding anything to the text, by not ignoring the text that kills your premill doctrine?


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