Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Dave L]

That is right to say that the events described to happen thereafter [Revelation 4]... [beginning with the 7 Seals [Revelation 6]and later the 7 Trumpets Plagues [Revelation 8 ,,Revelation 9 ]and the 7 Vials of the WRATH OF GOD [Revelation 16]will covers the period of time UNTIL THE COMING OF JESUS IN GLORY TO PHYSICALLY REIGN ON THE EARTH WITH A ROD OF IRON.

Jesus now rules the nations with a rod of iron. Foretold Psalms 2:8,9, fulfilled Rev. 2:27,12:5,19:15

 

[Dave L]

Bab ,Bab,Bab
You begin by arguing that everyone on the Earth will be killed by the great Earthquake mentioned in Revelation 16:18

I have shown you that the Bible tell us that there are people who blaspheme God after the Earthquake ....

Revelation 16:19-21 proves it.

Which prove my point that the Great Earthquake mentioned in Revelation 16:18 will happen BEFORE [few hours before] the Battle of Armageddon .

Where do I say what you think I say?

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus now rules the nations with a rod of iron. Foretold Psalms 2:8,9, fulfilled Rev. 2:27,12:5,19:15

Dave,

Will you be upset if I disagree with you on this one?

Rev 2:27 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

The potter destroys the flawed pots with the rod of Iron.
I believe this will occur at His Second Coming.

.

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

Will you be upset if I disagree with you on this one?

Rev 2:27 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

The potter destroys the flawed pots with the rod of Iron.
I believe this will occur at His Second Coming.

.

I agree. But also know according to Peter Jesus sits on David's throne ruling the nations with a rod of iron. The smashing happens now with the really big smash on the last day. I don't see Rev 19:15 as future, but showing fulfillment.

 

[BABerean2]

But also know according to Peter Jesus sits on David's throne ruling the nations with a rod of iron.

I found the throne in Acts 2, but not the rod.

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[Dave L]

I found the throne in Acts 2, but not the rod.

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If you understand that Jesus is God, and God rules in the kingdoms of men, replacing them and sustaining them, you can paint a complete picture.

 

[BABerean2]

If you understand that Jesus is God, and God rules in the kingdoms of men, replacing them and sustaining them, you can paint a complete picture.

I see Revelation 19:15 as a future event.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

However, I do greatly appreciate many of your comments on this forum.

.

 

[Dave L]

I see Revelation 19:15 as a future event.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

However, I do greatly appreciate many of your comments on this forum.

.

“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule [shepherd] them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:15–16)

Jesus shepherds them to the great battle on the last day. In a sense future but not as the Dispies and Premills say.

ποιμαίνω (ποιμήν) fut. ποιμανῶ; 1 aor. ἐποίμανα Ps 77:72, impv. 2 pl. ποιμάνατε 1 Pt 5:2; fut. pass. 2 sg. ποιμανθήσῃ Ps 36:3 (Hom.+) ‘to herd, act as a shepherd’.
① to serve as tender of sheep, herd, tend, (lead to) pasture (Did., Gen. 60, 12), w. acc. (Jos., Ant. 2, 264) π. ποίμνην tend a flock 1 Cor 9:7. Abs. (Demetr.: 722 Fgm. 1, 13 Jac.; Jos., Ant. 1, 309) δοῦλος ποιμαίνων a slave tending sheep Lk 17:7.—Dalman (as cited under ἀμφιβάλλω).


Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 842). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

 

[Douggg]

Either the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 is symbolic of the Church Age, or all of the scripture above is wrong. That is the choice.

No that is not the choice. The issue is simple. You have misinterpreted, misunderstood, Revelation 11 and Revelation 12.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus now rules the nations with a rod of iron. Foretold Psalms 2:8,9, fulfilled Rev. 2:27,12:5,19:15

Dave, if that were correct, then the world would be a completely different place in which to live than it is now.

God is sovereign; that is not the issue - and no-one should argue against that.

But it is not until sometime in the near future, in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 11, that God enacts His sovereign will to take the nations from being under the dominion of Satan's invisible mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great.

Which is why in the Lord's prayer taught by Jesus - Our Father which art in heaven, hallow be that Name, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven...

 

[Dave L]

Dave, if that were correct, then the world would be a completely different place in which to live than it is now.

In what way?

 

[Douggg]

In what way?

There would not be little children starving in the world. There would not be violence like it is now. There would be peace among the nations. To name a few.

The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works.

 

[claninja]

How do we square that with this then?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If after the 1st resurrection, believers become a kingdom of priests, then it already happened in Peter and John's day:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Revelation 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reignb on the earth.” (some manuscripts say "they reign" = presently)
The verb tenses are same: aorist inidicative active = past tense.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped (aorist indicative active) the beast or its image, and had not received (aorist indicative active) its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they lived (aorist indicative active) and reigned (aorist indicative active) with Christ for a thousand years.
Therefore, when the souls were alive, they did not worship the beast or take its mark, and the lived and reigned with Christ.

The 2nd death involves the LOF.

Which is the final Judgment, no?

Who does the text indicate the 2nd death has no power over?

Those who partake in the 1st resurrection, in other words, those born again.

If it is the former rather than the latter, how can the former not be a bodily resurrection?

All of us are dead prior to being born again:
Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
But if anyone is born again in Christ, they are a new creation, no longer of the flesh:
2 Corinthians 5:16-17 So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.a The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

And if it is a bodily resurrection, how can we then already be in the millennium? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see any bodily resurrected saints walking around and presently living on the earth among us mortals.

Do you view your fellow believers as flesh? Are Christ's words true that believers will never die? Are we a new creation upon being reborn?
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

That makes them dead at that point, right? But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Until the thousand years expires first, how can they fulfill Revelation 20:11-15, where it is in that context that they receive their eternal punishment?

Is Jesus literally sword battling people by holding a sword in his mouth and swinging his head around? I don't think so.......
Revelation 19:21And the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth of the One seated on the horse.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus shepherds them to the great battle on the last day. In a sense future but not as the Dispies and Premills say.

I agree with the above.

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[Dave L]

There would not be little children starving in the world. There would not be violence like it is now. There would be peace among the nations. To name a few.

Jesus rules over the nations with a rod of iron in God's wrath. But Israel's restoration happens on the last day when he resurrects the righteous dead and raptures the rest into the New Heavens and Earth. So if you sort through your physical kingdom prophecies and see where they fit best, you can better understand past, present, and future aspects of the kingdom. Please note the following:
Jesus now sits on David's Throne since his resurrection/ascension Acts 2:29–33. This is the "kingdom" symbolised by the Jewish "Millennial Kingdom" Revelation 20:2 that Jesus said was "at hand" Matthew 3:2, "within you" Luke 17:21, "not of this world" John 18:36 and "comes without observation" Luke 17:20, being spiritual in nature.

And one must be born again to see it John 3:3. It is the kingdom many still look for physically in Premillennialism and Dispensationalism even though it has been here unnoticed and in heaven since Pentecost 33 AD. Where Jesus remains on David's Throne/God's Throne 1 Chronicles 29:23 until the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world 1 Corinthians 15:21–26.

““To him who overcomes will I grant to sit with Me on My throne [future], as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne [presently in heaven]. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”” (Revelation 3:21–22)

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28)

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His face the earth and the heavens fled away, and no place was found for them.” (Revelation 20:11)

““When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.” (Matthew 25:31)

 

[BABerean2]

No that is not the choice. The issue is simple. You have misinterpreted, misunderstood, Revelation 11 and Revelation 12.

So you believe the issue has nothing to do with you ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ returning in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Christ judging both the living and the dead at His return in 2 Timothy 4:1.

You can ignore all of the above and then claim I am not interpreting Revelation 11 and 12 correctly...

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Let an unbiased person who is looking for the truth, read all of the passages above and also Revelation chapter 20.

Let them watch the video below to see what happens to your millennium when viewed through the whole of scripture.

Then let them make up their own mind about who is not interpreting the text correctly.

.

 

[Douggg]

And one must be born again to see it John 3:3. It is the kingdom many still look for physically in Premillennialism and Dispensationalism even though it has been here unnoticed and in heaven since Pentecost 33 AD. Where Jesus remains on David's Throne/God's Throne 1 Chronicles 29:23 until the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world 1 Corinthians 15:21–26.

The introduction of the Kingdom of God was spiritual and Jesus said it began within people. Having the impact of changing people's lives and them around them. And secures a person's eternal destiny and going to heaven when they leave this world bodily.

However, the visible, tangible, coming to the Kingdom of God, to have dominion, replacing Satan's invisible kingdom Babylon the Great, will be when Jesus returns to this world in great power and glory to rule over it being physically present on this earth.

Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is referring to the future dismantling and demise of Satan's kingdom. The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works.

The resurrection of the dead, universally, will be at the end of the thousand years in Revelation 20. The resurrection of the dead in Christ coupled with the translation of the living in Christ will happen sometime before the beginning years of the Day of the Lord start.

 

[Dave L]

The introduction of the Kingdom of God was spiritual and Jesus said it began within people. Having the impact of changing people's lives and them around them. And secures a person's eternal destiny and going to heaven when they leave this world bodily.

However, the visible, tangible, coming to the Kingdom of God, to have dominion, replacing Satan's invisible kingdom Babylon the Great, will be when Jesus returns to this world in great power and glory to rule over it being physically present on this earth.

Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is referring to the future dismantling and demise of Satan's kingdom. The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works.

The resurrection of the dead, universally, will be at the end of the thousand years in Revelation 20. The resurrection of the dead in Christ coupled with the translation of the living in Christ will happen sometime before the beginning years of the Day of the Lord start.

The kingdom is eternal, not 1000 years long. And flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

 

[Douggg]

The kingdom is eternal, not 1000 years long. And flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

The Kingdom of God is everlasting. And a person has to be born again to be everlasting.

When Jesus returns to this earth, to reign over it, this present earth will last a 1000 years, before it is destroyed, and replaced with a new earth following the Great White Throne judgment. There will always be an earth.

Is your present body eternal? Or do you have hopes of a replacement?

 

[Douggg]

So you believe the issue has nothing to do with you ignoring "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ returning in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Christ judging both the living and the dead at His return in 2 Timothy 4:1.

You can ignore all of the above and then claim I am not interpreting Revelation 11 and 12 correctly...

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

Let an unbiased person who is looking for the truth, read all of the passages above and also Revelation chapter 20.

Let them watch the video below to see what happens to your millennium when viewed through the whole of scripture.

Then let them make up their own mind about who is not interpreting the text correctly.

.

BaB2, you should make a resolution to take the word "ignore" from your vocabulary, as you tend to misuse it.

You are misinterpreting, misunderstanding Revelation 11 and Revelation 12.

Obviously, to be in concert with Revelation 20, the resurrection clearly at the end of the 1000 years, it is not at that very second in the middle of the 7 years (the timing of Revelation 11:15-18) , but is against the backdrop of when death first entered the world 6000 years ago.

It all has to do with the person responsible for "death", the destruction of souls, and the demise of his kingdom, called Babylon the Great - Satan and his Kingdom.

The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works.