Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[DavidPT]

Paul says Christ delivers the kingdom up to the Father at the resurrection. This takes place on the last day (multiple scriptures already cited). So Satan must cram everything he does, Gog, Magog, Armageddon, etc., after the 1000 years into a few hours to make your theory work. Plus there aren't any saints left on earth for him to attack. They are all with Jesus in the new heavens and earth.

What you need to reasonably demonstrate is how things play out via the 2nd coming. According to Revelation 19, the beast and it's armies are all still physically alive and well when Christ and His armies confront them face to face after the last trump has already sounded preceding this encounter with the beast and it's armies.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

At this point they are now dead. They have to rise from the dead in order to fulfill Revelation 20:11-15.

So how do you see all that playing out? There has to be some form of sensible chronology involved. How long do you see of those things taking that I have listed above?

 

[Dave L]

What you need to reasonably demonstrate is how things play out via the 2nd coming. According to Revelation 19, the beast and it's armies are all still physically alive and well when Christ and His armies confront them face to face after the last trump has already sounded preceding this encounter with the beast and it's armies.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

At this point they are now dead. They have to rise from the dead in order to fulfill Revelation 20:11-15.

So how do you see all that playing out? There has to be some form of sensible chronology involved. How long do you see of those things taking that I have listed above?

The problem is in you making the 1000 years the millennial kingdom. This is what throws a wrench into your system when you look at other scriptures saying the resurrection happens on the last day.

The 1000 = the binding and loosing of Satan. They do not represent the kingdom. "And when the 1000 years end, Satan is loosed.....

 

[Riberra]

And Paul: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

These need no interpretation.

You surely know that Jesus will be in the CLOUDS IN THE AIR over the Valley of Megiddo at His Coming...

Paul tell us that the resurrected believers and the believers STILL ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS WILL BE CAUGHT UP TO MEET JESUS IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR, TO WHERE JESUS WILL BE AT HIS COMING ----IE IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR OVER THE VALLEY OF MEGIDDO...NOWHERE IN THE TEXT THERE IS MENTION THAT JESUS WILL RETURN TO HEAVEN WITH SOMEONE.

The caught up [rapiemur] is just a transportion to meet Jesus to where Jesus will be at His Coming....NOT A TRIP TO HEAVEN

 

[Dave L]

You surely know that Jesus will be in the CLOUDS IN THE AIR over the Valley of Megiddo at His Coming...

Paul tell us that the resurrected believers and the believers STILL ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS WILL BE CAUGHT UP TO MEET JESUS IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR, TO WHERE JESUS WILL BE AT HIS COMING ----IE IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR OVER THE VALLEY OF MEGIDDO...NOWHERE IN THE TEXT THERE IS MENTION THAT JESUS WILL RETURN TO HEAVEN WITH SOMEONE.

The caught up [rapiemur] is just a transport to meet Jesus to where Jesus will be at His Coming....NOT A TRIP TO HEAVEN

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)

 

[Riberra]

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

Revelation 16:15-17

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done:

 

[Dave L]

Revelation 16:15-17

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

17 And the seventh poured out his bowl upon the air; and there came forth a great voice out of the temple, from the throne, saying, It is done:

Yes and this is the end of the world. The time is unknown to all except the Father.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

“So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.” (Acts 1:6–7)

The resurrection on the last day is the restoration of Israel, i.e. believers in Christ.

 

[Riberra]

Why would we make that assumption, just because the word "Armageddon" is not found in the passage?

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Why are they hiding from the Lamb, if the Lamb is not present?)

The text tell us that they will see Jesus sitting on His throne in Heaven....Jesus is not on the Earth during the 6Th Seal Events.

When is the Day of the Lord's wrath upon His enemies?

During the 7 Vials of the WRATH of GOD mentioned in Revelation 16.

Remember that John is watching a vision in the passage above.
Do we find many of the same characters in chapter 19?

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Do you think that finding many of these same characters in both passages is just a coincidence?

They have survived the Great Earthquake of The 6TH Seal Revelation 6:12 ..so yes these are these same kings and captains who will be there at the Battle of Armageddon many years later [Revelation 19].

 

[Riberra]

Yes and this is the end of the world. The time is unknown to all except the Father.

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” (Matthew 24:35–36)

“So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.” (Acts 1:6–7)

The resurrection on the last day is the restoration of Israel, i.e. believers in Christ.,

The restoration of Israel , i.e. believers in Christ will be done here on the Earth AFTER THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON.

That is the 1,000 years reign of Jesus mentioned in
Revelation 20:4-6.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Dave L]

The restoration of Israel , i.e. believers in Christ will be done here on the Earth
That is the 1,000 years reign of Jesus mentioned in
Revelation 20:4-6.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Notice "the souls" speak of a spiritual reality, not a physical kingdom. The Church is Israel and God restores Israel in the resurrection/rapture on the last day as we enter the New Heavens and earth.

 

[Riberra]

Notice "the souls" speak of a spiritual reality, not a physical kingdom. The Church is Israel and God restores Israel in the resurrection/rapture on the last day as we enter the New Heavens and earth.

The SOULS speak of those who have been BEHEADED BECAUSE OF THEIR TESTIMONY OF JESUS [They have refused to take the mark of the Beast]...their SOULS are in HEAVEN ...AND JESUS WILL BRING WITH HIM THEIR SOULS TO BE RESURRECTED HERE ON THE EARTH....

 

[Dave L]

The text tell us that they will see Jesus sitting on His throne in Heaven....Jesus is not on the Earth during the 6Th Seal Events.


During the 7 Vials of the WRATH of GOD mentioned in Revelation 16.


They have survived the Great Earthquake of The 6TH Seal Revelation 6:12 ..so yes these are these same kings and captains who will be there at the Battle of Armageddon many years later [Revelation 19].

Jesus reigns from David's Throne in heaven over earth since his assent. The kingdom is spiritual, here on earth in the days of John the Baptist, though invisible, and in heaven. Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father on earth's last day, into the new Heavens and Earth.

 

[Dave L]

The SOULS speak of those who have been BEHEADED ...their SOULS are in HEAVEN ...AND JESUS WILL BRING WITH HIM THEIR SOULS TO BE RESURRECTED HERE ON THE EARTH....

It still speaks of a spiritual reality in heaven and not a physical earthly kingdom.

 

[Riberra]

It still speaks of a spiritual reality in heaven and not a physical earthly kingdom.

You ''spiritualise'' everything .

Question:
Do you believe that Jesus have been Resurrected in His Flesh and Bones Body or do you think that Jesus was a Spirit when He Resurrected ?

 

[Dave L]

You ''spiritualise'' everything .

Question:
Do you believe that Jesus have been Resurrected in His Flesh and Bones Body or do you think that Jesus was a Spirit when He Resurrected ?

Paul says when he returns we will receive a body like his glorious body. God raised Jesus in his earthy body but he underwent changes as we will. Flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven.

 

[DavidPT]

The text tell us that they will see Jesus sitting on His throne in Heaven....Jesus is not on the Earth during the 6Th Seal Events.

Let's look at it from another angle then.

Isaiah 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day .
18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?


Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day----And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one


It seems to me then, if Isaiah 2:10-22 has some of the events in mind as in the 6th seal, wherever one places Jesus dwelling when Zechariah 14:9 comes to pass, one would need to place Jesus dwelling in the same place when Isaiah 2:10-22 comes to pass. Unless one wants to argue---and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day----And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one----that these are not depicting the same thing.

 

[DavidPT]

Paul says when he returns we will receive a body like his glorious body. God raised Jesus in his earthy body but he underwent changes as we will. Flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven.

It says flesh and blood. It says nothing about flesh and bones though. Obviously Jesus shed every drop of His blood in His body, thus when He arose, not a drop of blood remained in His body.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

As can be seen, after He rose He was still flesh and bones.

 

[Dave L]

It says flesh and blood. It says nothing about flesh and bones though. Obviously Jesus shed every drop of His blood in His body, thus when He arose, not a drop of blood remained in His body.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

As can be seen, after He rose He was still flesh and bones.

“it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” (1 Corinthians 15:44)

 

[Dave L]

Let's look at it from another angle then.

Isaiah 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day .
18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?


Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day----And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one


It seems to me then, if Isaiah 2:10-22 has some of the events in mind as in the 6th seal, wherever one places Jesus dwelling when Zechariah 14:9 comes to pass, one would need to place Jesus dwelling in the same place when Isaiah 2:10-22 comes to pass. Unless one wants to argue---and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day----And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one----that these are not depicting the same thing.

When does God restore Israel? The quick answer is in the resurrection into the New Heavens and earth.

 

[BABerean2]

The text tell us that they will see Jesus sitting on His throne in Heaven....Jesus is not on the Earth during the 6Th Seal Events.

And how are those on the earth at the end of Revelation chapter 6 seeing Jesus on His throne in the third heaven?

Do they have some type of special video camera that lets them see what is happening in the third heaven?

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What does it mean when the great day of His wrath is come?
What day would that be?

Ask an unbiased witness, who is not trying to make the Premill doctrine work, if you can find one.

Is it God, or Christ who sits on the throne in verse 16 above?


Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Obviously Jesus shed every drop of His blood in His body, thus when He arose, not a drop of blood remained in His body.

How about showing that concept in the Bible.

A person stabbed with a spear will loose a tremendous amount of blood.
However, it will not completely drain every drop of blood from the body.

Even bones contain blood.
As a matter of fact the red blood cells are made inside the bones.
Have you ever heard of a bone marrow transplant?
The marrow is usually taken by drilling a hole in the pelvis bone.

.