Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[BABerean2]

I don't understand what you're getting at

What I am getting at is there are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Christ's Second Coming in Matthew 25:31-46.
Many Christians believe there will be mortals living on the planet for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.

The "first" resurrection described in Revelation 20 is found in the verse below.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


You are missing the fact that Revelation chapter 20 is full of symbolic language.

Is Satan bound with a steel chain, like one from the hardware store?

Can a spirit being be bound with a real chain?

Mar_5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

Luk_8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)


Can Satan be contained in a hole in the ground?



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[BABerean2]

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. Isaiah 66:15-22

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

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[Biblewriter]

What I am getting at is there are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Christ's Second Coming in Matthew 25:31-46.
Many Christians believe there will be mortals living on the planet for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ.

The "first" resurrection described in Revelation 20 is found in the verse below.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


You are missing the fact that Revelation chapter 20 is full of symbolic language.

Is Satan bound with a steel chain, like one from the hardware store?

Can a spirit being be bound with a real chain?

Mar_5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

Luk_8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)


Can Satan be contained in a hole in the ground?



.

I have given you explicitly stated scripture that clearly says that there will be mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Christ's second coming, and you still prefer your interpretation of these other scriptures, none of which actually says what you claim it means.

 

[BABerean2]

I have given you explicitly stated scripture that clearly says that there will be mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Christ's second coming, and you still prefer your interpretation of these other scriptures, none of which actually says what you claim it means.

Do you think Jesus was confused and forgot to mention mortals, in Matthew 25:31-46?

Do you think Peter was confused about the earth being "burned up" on "the day of the Lord", when Christ "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do you think Paul was confused about Christ judging both the living and the dead at His appearing, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Do you think John was confused about "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Do any of those passages mean what they say?

Do you think the New Testament authors may have seen things more clearly at times, than the Old Testament authors?

Are there "priests" and temple "stones", and a "holy nation" in 1 Peter 2:4-10?

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[Biblewriter]

Do you think Jesus was confused and forgot to mention mortals, in Matthew 25:31-46?

Do you think Peter was confused about the earth being "burned up" on "the day of the Lord", when Christ "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do you think Paul was confused about Christ judging both the living and the dead at His appearing, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Do you think John was confused about "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Do any of those passages mean what they say?

Do you think the New Testament authors may have seen things more clearly at times, than the Old Testament authors?

Are there "priests" and temple "stones", and a "holy nation" in 1 Peter 2:4-10?

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What you are saying amounts to a denial that the Old Testament prophets were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

You are using YOUR INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of some scriptures as an excuse to deny what other scriptures EXPLICITLY say.

In this case, your error lies in a failure to understand that our Lord is returning more than just one more time.

 

[BABerean2]

In this case, your error lies in a failure to understand that our Lord is returning more than just one more time.

I am a part of the welcoming committee.
It is good to know you are on the planning committee.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

We are still looking forward to you sharing what you have written in your books about the New Covenant.
When do you think we will be able to see some of it?


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[Erik Nelson]

The 1000 years represent Satan's binding, not the kingdom. He attacks the kingdom when loosed.

yes, think you could phrase it that way also

it represents one specific epoch of the Kingdom's everlasting forevermore history

 

[Erik Nelson]

Do you think Jesus was confused and forgot to mention mortals, in Matthew 25:31-46?

Do you think Peter was confused about the earth being "burned up" on "the day of the Lord", when Christ "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Do you think Paul was confused about Christ judging both the living and the dead at His appearing, in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Do you think John was confused about "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Do any of those passages mean what they say?

Do you think the New Testament authors may have seen things more clearly at times, than the Old Testament authors?

Are there "priests" and temple "stones", and a "holy nation" in 1 Peter 2:4-10?

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The Premillennial "coming of Christ" (= Rev 19's Christly conquering figure) is symbolic of the Church as the "Voltron-like Body of Christ on earth" over-coming the "Beastly" pagan Roman empire = 4th century AD

The actual long-awaited return of Christ bodily from heaven, personally individually, as he was seen to Ascend thereto in (May, June??) 30 AD, is not described in Rev 19 but Rev 20:9ff and has yet to occur

 

[mkgal1]

The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical.

No, I don't think they do. See Augustine's City of God for the classic Amillennialist view.

I think you're working from a false dichotomy, i.e., physical vs. spiritual. That was the gnostics' error.

The true dichotomy is natural vs. spiritual (first Adam vs. last Adam). The resurrected Jesus is a physical being (Luke 24:39). The spiritual world is not vapor; it's just invisible to natural eyes.

I agree that "natural" is a more accurate contrast.

Here's an explanation of the Amillennial view:
The kingdom of God is both present and future. Amillennialists do not believe that the kingdom of God is primarily a Jewish kingdom which involves the literal restoration of the throne of David. Nor do they believe that because of the unbelief of the Jews of his day Christ postponed the establishment of the kingdom to the time of his future earthly millennial reign. Amillennialists believe that the kingdom of God was founded by Christ at the time of his sojourn on earth, is operative in history now and is destined to be revealed in its fullness in the life to come. They understand the kingdom of God to be the reign of God dynamically active in human history through Jesus Christ. Its purpose is to redeem God’s people from sin and from demonic powers, and finally to establish the new heavens and the new earth. The kingdom of God means nothing less than the reign of God in Christ over his entire created universe.

The kingdom of God is therefore both a present reality and a future hope. Jesus clearly taught that the kingdom was already present during his earthly ministry: “But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Mt. 12:28, NIV). When the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, he replied, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, `Lo, here it is!’ or `There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you” (Lk. 17:20-21). But Jesus also taught that there was a sense in which the kingdom of God was still future, both in specific sayings (Mt. 7:21-23; 8:11-12) and in eschatological parables (such as those of the Marriage Feast, the Tares, the Talents, the Wise and Foolish Virgins). Paul also makes statements describing the kingdom as both present (Rom. 14:17; 1 Cor. 4:19-20; Col. 1:13-14) and future (1 Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:5; 2 Tim. 4:18).

The fact that the kingdom of God is present in one sense and future in another implies that we who are the subjects of that kingdom live in a kind of tension between the “already” and the “not yet.” We are already in the kingdom, and yet we look forward to the full manifestation of that kingdom; we already share its blessings, and yet we await its total victory. Because the exact time when Christ will return is not known, the church must live with a sense of urgency, realizing that the end of history may be very near. At the same time, however, the church must continue to plan and work for a future on this present earth which may still last a long time.

Meanwhile, the kingdom of God demands of us all total commitment to Christ and his cause. We must see all of life and all of reality in the light of the goal of the redemption not just of individuals but of the entire universe. This implies, as Abraham Kuyper, the renowned Dutch theologian and statesman, once said, that there is not a thumb-breadth of the universe about which Christ does not say, “It is mine.”

This total commitment further implies a Christian philosophy of history: All of history must be seen as the working out of God’s eternal purpose. This kingdom vision includes a Christian philosophy of culture: Art and science, reflecting as they do the glory of God, are to be pursued for his praise. The vision of the kingdom also includes a Christian view of vocation: All callings are from God, and all that we do in everyday life is to be done to God’s praise. ~ "Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

 

[BABerean2]

but Rev 20:9ff and has yet to occur

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You are correct above, based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, which describe the fire coming at the Second Coming of Christ.

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[Biblewriter]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You are correct above, based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, which describe the fire coming at the Second Coming of Christ.

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You are confusing scriptures about different events which will take place at different times.

 

[BABerean2]

You are confusing scriptures about different events which will take place at different times.

Since "the time of the judgment of the dead" is found in the passage below, because the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, it would be you who is confused.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


We also find God's "wrath", and "reward" for his servants, and destruction for others, all in this same verse.

Try to ignore this passage, if you want to make your doctrine work.


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[Erik Nelson]

I agree that "natural" is a more accurate contrast.

Here's an explanation of the Amillennial view:
The kingdom of God is both present and future. Amillennialists do not believe that the kingdom of God is primarily a Jewish kingdom which involves the literal restoration of the throne of David. Nor do they believe that because of the unbelief of the Jews of his day Christ postponed the establishment of the kingdom to the time of his future earthly millennial reign. Amillennialists believe that the kingdom of God was founded by Christ at the time of his sojourn on earth, is operative in history now and is destined to be revealed in its fullness in the life to come. They understand the kingdom of God to be the reign of God dynamically active in human history through Jesus Christ. Its purpose is to redeem God’s people from sin and from demonic powers, and finally to establish the new heavens and the new earth. The kingdom of God means nothing less than the reign of God in Christ over his entire created universe.

The kingdom of God is therefore both a present reality and a future hope. Jesus clearly taught that the kingdom was already present during his earthly ministry: “But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Mt. 12:28, NIV). When the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, he replied, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, `Lo, here it is!’ or `There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you” (Lk. 17:20-21). But Jesus also taught that there was a sense in which the kingdom of God was still future, both in specific sayings (Mt. 7:21-23; 8:11-12) and in eschatological parables (such as those of the Marriage Feast, the Tares, the Talents, the Wise and Foolish Virgins). Paul also makes statements describing the kingdom as both present (Rom. 14:17; 1 Cor. 4:19-20; Col. 1:13-14) and future (1 Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:5; 2 Tim. 4:18).

The fact that the kingdom of God is present in one sense and future in another implies that we who are the subjects of that kingdom live in a kind of tension between the “already” and the “not yet.” We are already in the kingdom, and yet we look forward to the full manifestation of that kingdom; we already share its blessings, and yet we await its total victory. Because the exact time when Christ will return is not known, the church must live with a sense of urgency, realizing that the end of history may be very near. At the same time, however, the church must continue to plan and work for a future on this present earth which may still last a long time.

Meanwhile, the kingdom of God demands of us all total commitment to Christ and his cause. We must see all of life and all of reality in the light of the goal of the redemption not just of individuals but of the entire universe. This implies, as Abraham Kuyper, the renowned Dutch theologian and statesman, once said, that there is not a thumb-breadth of the universe about which Christ does not say, “It is mine.”

This total commitment further implies a Christian philosophy of history: All of history must be seen as the working out of God’s eternal purpose. This kingdom vision includes a Christian philosophy of culture: Art and science, reflecting as they do the glory of God, are to be pursued for his praise. The vision of the kingdom also includes a Christian view of vocation: All callings are from God, and all that we do in everyday life is to be done to God’s praise. ~ "Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

none of that precludes the everlasting kingdom of God through Christ having a 1000-year heyday, in which the gospel preached has limited the "opposition"...

with something of a "decline" afterwards, in an increasingly deceived world, until FJ

Amil describes the Kingdom well, no reason you can't add on a "rise peak decline" from 1st century to medieval Christendom & Christian Byzantine empire to modern era

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dave L said: ↑
The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical.

Radagast said: ↑
No, I don't think they do. See Augustine's City of God for the classic Amillennialist view.

I never read Augustine's writings......
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God (St. Augustine)
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XXII (St. Augustine)

συνείδησις said: ↑
I think you're working from a false dichotomy, i.e., physical vs. spiritual. That was the gnostics' error.

The true dichotomy is natural vs. spiritual (first Adam vs. last Adam). The resurrected Jesus is a physical being (Luke 24:39). The spiritual world is not vapor; it's just invisible to natural eyes.

I agree that "natural" is a more accurate contrast.

Here's an explanation of the Amillennial view:
The kingdom of God is both present and future. Amillennialists do not believe that the kingdom of God is primarily a Jewish kingdom which involves the literal restoration of the throne of David. Nor do they believe that because of the unbelief of the Jews of his day Christ postponed the establishment of the kingdom to the time of his future earthly millennial reign. Amillennialists believe that the kingdom of God was founded by Christ at the time of his sojourn on earth, is operative in history now and is destined to be revealed in its fullness in the life to come. They understand the kingdom of God to be the reign of God dynamically active in human history through Jesus Christ. Its purpose is to redeem God’s people from sin and from demonic powers, and finally to establish the new heavens and the new earth. The kingdom of God means nothing less than the reign of God in Christ over his entire created universe.

The kingdom of God is therefore both a present reality and a future hope. Jesus clearly taught that the kingdom was already present during his earthly ministry: “But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you” (Mt. 12:28, NIV). When the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, he replied, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, `Lo, here it is!’ or `There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you” (Lk. 17:20-21). But Jesus also taught that there was a sense in which the kingdom of God was still future, both in specific sayings (Mt. 7:21-23; 8:11-12) and in eschatological parables (such as those of the Marriage Feast, the Tares, the Talents, the Wise and Foolish Virgins). Paul also makes statements describing the kingdom as both present (Rom. 14:17; 1 Cor. 4:19-20; Col. 1:13-14) and future (1 Cor. 6:9; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:5; 2 Tim. 4:18).

The fact that the kingdom of God is present in one sense and future in another implies that we who are the subjects of that kingdom live in a kind of tension between the “already” and the “not yet.” We are already in the kingdom, and yet we look forward to the full manifestation of that kingdom; we already share its blessings, and yet we await its total victory. Because the exact time when Christ will return is not known, the church must live with a sense of urgency, realizing that the end of history may be very near. At the same time, however, the church must continue to plan and work for a future on this present earth which may still last a long time.

Meanwhile, the kingdom of God demands of us all total commitment to Christ and his cause. We must see all of life and all of reality in the light of the goal of the redemption not just of individuals but of the entire universe. This implies, as Abraham Kuyper, the renowned Dutch theologian and statesman, once said, that there is not a thumb-breadth of the universe about which Christ does not say, “It is mine.”

This total commitment further implies a Christian philosophy of history: All of history must be seen as the working out of God’s eternal purpose. This kingdom vision includes a Christian philosophy of culture: Art and science, reflecting as they do the glory of God, are to be pursued for his praise. The vision of the kingdom also includes a Christian view of vocation: All callings are from God, and all that we do in everyday life is to be done to God’s praise. ~ "Amillennialism: A Brief Sketch of Amillennial Eschatology" by Anthony Hoekema

Hello mkgal.
Preterists and Amill make a lovely "couple".....

Orthodox preterism/amillenialism

Now lessee, OrthPreds believe that Daniel's 70 weeks of years adds up to 490 years. Futurists believe that 70 weeks of years works out to be greter than 2000 years. Which one did you say was symbolic? And of course I've always gotten a chuckle out of the notion that the cessation of temple sacrifice as foretold by Daniel has not taken place, even though no sacrifice has been made for over 2000 years. Longest lunch break ever, I reckon.

It'd be more honest to say that futurists take almost nothing literally. Driven by the necessity to make their doctrine "work", they spiritualize way like murder again and again, where OrthPreds are quite content to take the Word literally.

And don't get me started about abominable futurist beliefs like the one that say animal sacrifice will be resumed in The Millennium. Based, of course, on the idea that some obscure prophecy just can't have been fulfilled yet, and thus it's gonna happen despite the Ultimate Sacrifice made by our Lord on the Cross.

... then you're never gonna make it as a futurist.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I never read Augustine's writings......
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God (St. Augustine)
CHURCH FATHERS: City of God, Book XXII (St. Augustine)

Hello mkgal.
Preterists and Amill make a lovely "couple".....

Orthodox preterism/amillenialism

Day of Vengeance (Luke 21:22) of 70AD not necessarily Day of FJ

revelation was written after luke 21:22 spoken, all OT fulfilled doesn't necessarily mean all of the nt fulfilled as well