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Featured Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Dave L, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I made my point in #1428, where I posted many prophesies describing the forthcoming massive earth movement of the Sixth Seal event. Which will happen, along with an enveloping fire, violent storms and huge tsunamis.

    What I see here is a persistent denial of scriptures that detail what we can expect in the future. It is understandable that people want to put aside anything that may upset their current lifestyle. This attitude is fine for the secular peoples, but we who do study God's Word, should know what He has planned for His Creation and specifically for us; His people.
    We, my friends, should not be surprised when God intervenes and destroys His enemies.

    Psalms 94:1-7 God of vengeance – show Yourself! Rise now and judge the earth, repay the arrogant as they deserve. Lord, how long will the wicked exult and tread down Your chosen Land? They murder and carry out terror attacks, saying: The Lord does not see, their God pays no heed. Nahum 1:1-6

    Psalms 94:8-11 Take heed yourselves, you most stupid of people; you fools, do you think that the Maker of all things cannot see or hear? Will He, who controls the destiny of nations, not correct them? The Instructor of mankind has all knowledge, He knows that the thoughts of everyone are but puffs of wind.

    Psalms 94:12-15 Happy is the one whom the Lord instructs, those who obey His Commandments. They will be rescued from trouble, while the godless fall into a pit of their own making.
    The Lord will not abandon His faithful people or forsake His chosen Land,
    for justice and righteousness will again come together and all who love the Lord will experience it.


    Psalms 94:16-19 Who is on the Lord’s side against the godless? Who will stand up for Him against evildoers?
    I nearly made the mistake of not trusting the Lord, but He helped me in my time of trouble , He held me up and His comfort brought me joy
    .

    Psalms 94:20-23 If justice is perverted and mischief is contrived under the cover of the law, that condemns the innocent – then you must not agree with it.
    The Lord will repay the wicked for their injustice, He will destroy them for their misdeeds.
    The Lord is my Rock, in whom I trust, He will give me refuge.

    Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged,

    This is how it is now: The wicked exult and tread down the Lord’s chosen Land, they murder and carry out terror attacks. Psalms 10:1-6, Psalms 83:2-3

    The prayer of the righteous people: Rise now and judge the earth; God of vengeance, repay the wicked for their injustice, destroy them for their misdeeds. Jeremiah 9:25-26

    The Lord’s reply: The Lord will not abandon His people or forsake His chosen Land. He, who controls the destiny of the nations will judge those who disobey Him. The godless will fall into a pit of their own making. Psalms 7:12-15, Obadiah 15, Habakkuk 3:14

    Our response: The Lord is my Rock, in whom I trust, He will give me refuge. Isaiah 30:15, John 14:1

    His promise: The Lord keeps us safe in the time of trouble. All those who love Him will experience justice and righteousness in the Land.
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    1,440 posts and more than 72 pages.......
    I am going to have to resign from this thread, as I have others to work on.
    God bless all..........
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


    Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    Let's try and reason through some of the above.


    And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth(Revelation 6:10)?

    and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11).

    Apparently the judging and avenging our blood on them that dwell on the earth, that can't begin until this part is fulfilled first----that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled

    When are their fellowservants also and their brethren, killed? How about here?----as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15). What that tells us is, that Revelation 6:11 is fulfilled during the 42 month reign of the beast. This 42 month reign apparently referring to the little season those already martyred are to rest. This also tells us----and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)----that this is the fulfillment of Revelation 6:11, where we already know is fulfilled during the 42 month reign of the beast.

    So until Revelation 6:11, also meaning the 42 month reign of the beast, is fulfilled, Revelation 6:10 can't get fulfilled yet. What does Revelation 6:10 involve? Obviously the wrath of God. Which now brings us to the 6th seal. And what does the 6th seal involve? Does it not involve the wrath of God?

    For those who were able to follow my reasoning through these things above, how can the 6th seal then not be after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast? Doesn't the above adequately show that it has to be?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I guess you will perhaps need to enlighten me since I'm failing to see how by being a Preterist there are no contradictions in any of these things we have been discussing.
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I haven't looked at any of those passages you submitted, in context. But assuming some of them, or perhaps all of them fit endtimes, Revelation 6:11 has to be fulfilled first before God initially begins judging and avenging, which obviously involves wrath. Revelation 6:11 can't get fulfilled until the 42 month reign of the beast is fulfilled first. IMO I adequately proved this in post #1443, unless one can debunk the conclusions I came to in that post.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    No; you don't prove the Sixth Seal happens at the Return.
    Just reading the three prophesies that do describe the Return; Zechariah 14:3-5, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:11-21, is enough to realize this.
    God's wrath is mentioned in Revelation 19:15, but we see from Revelation 14:17-20, that this refers to a fulfilled event.
    There are many prophesies like; Amos 5:18-20, that simply cannot be placed at the same time as the glorious Return of Jesus.

    Your worst error, though, is to shuffle the Sixth Seal out of its given sequence. Not advisable at all!
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Why leave now?
    Have you no rebuttal to my post#1441 ? I have to think so.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    She knows that it is the Son, instead of the sun, that brings the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10...

    .
     
  9. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I have already proved you wrong on this, BaB. 2 Thess 1:7-10 cannot be a prophecy of the Return.
    Do you imagine a Jesus on fire? Did the Lord come in water in Noah's time?
     
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The sixth seal takes place very near the return of Jesus to this earth.

    The sixth seal events take place 1290 days from when the great tribulation begins when the AoD is set up to be worshiped and people begin being martyred for not worshiping the beast and his image.

    Those martyrs are in the fifth seal. At the sixth seal, Jesus moves to avenge their deaths which they had been pleading for, and to put an end to the great tribulation.

    On day 2475 of the 7years, the cosmos will part and the world will see Jesus before the throne of God. It terrorizes the evil men of the world because of the evil deeds they will have committed. They are given 45 days to assemble their armies at Armageddon to meet their end when Jesus descends down to earth in Revelation 19, on Day 2520.

    The stars appear to fall to the earth when the cosmos is pulled aside because of the round shape of the earth. The sun appears to slowly set to the earth every day, by this same reason.

    The CME notion is taking the events of the sixth seal way too small. It will be the entire cosmos that will be peeled aside and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God in the third heaven. It is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, right before Jesus comes down to earth in great power and glory, in Matthew 24.

    The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works. That's what's going on if you can see it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is two individuals, David, because they prophesy. Clothed in sackclock. It will be a somber time.

    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
     
  12. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    I'm back !

    Jesus will start to AVENGE the blood of ALL THE CHRISTIANS MARTYRS when the last martyrs will be beheaded during the 42 Months Reign of The Beast [98 %of the Christians who have put all their faith into the belief of a supposed ''removal out of the Earth'' will have taken the mark to save their life when they will realize that no pre-trib ,mid-trib or pre-wrath ''rapture to Heaven'' will happen] .The 7 Vials of the WRATH of God [Revelation 16] will be poured out during the last 6 months of the Reign of The Beast upon those who will have taken the mark and worship the Beast and his image .

    Revelation 16
    1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out The Seven Bowls Of The WRATH of God into the earth.

    2 And the first went, and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a noisome and grievous sore upon the men that had the mark of the beast, and that worshipped his image.

    3 And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, [even] the things that were in the sea.

    4 And the third poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters; and it became blood.

    5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, Righteous art thou, who art and who wast, thou Holy One, because thou didst thus judge: 6 for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and blood hast thou given them to drink: they are worthy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    (He comes as a thief in Revelation 16:15-16.)

    During Noah's time the earth was baptized by water.

    The next time it will be baptized by fire.

    Do I imagine Christ on fire?
    Christ is God, and God can be a consuming fire, as found below in the Old Testament.

    Gen_19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    Exo_3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Exo_13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

    Exo_29:18 And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

    Deu_4:36 Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.

    Deu_5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

    Deu_9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

    2Ch_7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.

    Psa_18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

    Psa_21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

    The sun is not even mentioned in the OT passages above.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Them martyred in previous times are not avenged in the sixth seal because their murders are long dead and not around.

    Those murderes will get their just punishment at the great white throne judgment.

    The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works. God will have eternal vengeance on Satan. It is coming. And nothing can stop Him. Do not be discouraged.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  15. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


    First of all, prove this part----until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---that that does not involve the 42 month reign of the beast. But assuming you instead agree it does involve the 42 month reign of the beast, then prove this part----judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth---that God initially begins doing this before this part----their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were----is even fulfilled first.
     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    What does the text state here? For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book---'heareth' being a keyword.

    akouw
    akouo
    ak-oo'-o
    a primary verb; to hear (in various senses):--give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), (shall) hear(-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.

    The def that appears to fit that verse is understand.

    For I testify unto every man that understands the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    One first has to have perfect understanding of the words of the prophecy of this book, before anyone can be held accountable for adding or subtracting from the words of the prophecy of this book. Do I have perfect undertanding of the words of the prophecy of this book? Not even close. But I am in the process, and have been for years now, of trying to understand the words of the prophecy of this book.

    An example of understanding something. 2 + 2 = 4. An example of adding to that. 2 + 2 = 4 x 100. An example of subtracting from that. 2 + 2 = 4 - 2.

    An example of not understanding something. 2 + 2 = 3. How can one add or subtract from that when they don't even understand it correctly to begin with?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The six seals cover the 7 years, from beginning to conclusion.

    seal 1 - the rider on the white horse, the person is crowned the king of Israel, becomes the Antichrist; he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant to begin the 7 years. The world thinking it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety.

    seal 2 - the rider on the red horse, peace is taken from the earth. This rider arrives 3 years 3 months into the 7 years, when the perceived messiah shatters the illusion of peace and safety - by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God - triggering the Day of the Lord. Peace is taken from the earth. And the person's reign as the Antichrist ends.

    seal 3 - the rider on the black horse, the person as the beast is in power, the abomination of desolation will have been placed in the temple - triggering the great tribulation, and the judgments fall upon the earth. 666 will be in force, for buying/selling of food becomes widespread. Satan is cast down to earth and incarnates the image.

    seal 4 - the rider on the pale horse, Death, people are killed for not worshiping the beast nor his image, the statue incarnated by Satan. God's judgments fall on Satan's invisible empire, Babylon the great, fallen, cast down to earth. People die in large numbers.

    seal 5 - in heaven, the martyrs cry for Jesus to avenge their blood.

    seal 6 - near the very end of the 7 years. Jesus's anger boils over against Satan, the false prophet, and the beast, and their works. The cosmos parts and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God, his garments covered in the blood of the martyrs - the time of the wrath of the Lamb has come.

    ___________________________________________________________________

    The 7th seal begins the revelation of events in detail leading up to the conclusion of the 7 years and Jesus's glorious return, putting everything on a timeline.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  18. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


    You take this part literal then? I have heard of fire breathing dragons, though I doubt they actually ever existed, but can't say I have heard of fire breathing men though. Maybe it's just me, but somehow I just can't picture these things playing out as written in our day and time. I'm not saying these prophecies don't involve our day and time, but fire breathing men showing up one day---I don't know---sounds a bit farfetched if that is literally meaning what it says.
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    I have no clue where you are coming up with alleged precise timing of things, such as---3 years 3 months into the 7 years? Why 3 years 3 months? Why not 3 years 2 months? Or 3 years 6 months? So on and so on.
     
  20. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    There is no avenging of the Blood of the Prophets and The Saints at the 6Th Seal [the only reference to avenging the blood of the Prophets and The Saints is in Revelation 16]...The Destruction caused by the Great Worldwide Earthquake of the 6Th Seal will set the scene for the beginning of the Great Tribulation...Thus the urgency to Seal the 144,000 before the 7 Trumpets Plagues as mentioned in Revelation 7 ....make no mistake the great crowd to large to number WEARING WHITE ROBES that John saw BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD IN HEAVEN in Revelation 7 are the SOULS OF DEAD BELIEVERS.They Came out of GREAT TRIBULATION ---these are the MARTYRS since Stephen UNTIL THE OPENING OF THE 6TH SEAL..

    I am not discouraged or worried at all ...i know that the Tribulation will begin only when the Great Worldwide Earthquake of the 6Th Seal will happen...with the hope that this will not happen during my lifetime.Contrary to the pre-tribbers like you who wish that the Tribulation begin soon because they believe that SUPPOSEDLY they will be taken to Heaven few seconds before.

    Don't wish to hard that the Tribulation begin soon ...nobody will be raptured to Heaven before.
    Nowhere in the Bible it is written that Jesus will take the believers out of the Earth to avoid any Tribulation be it small or GREAT.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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