Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Mark Quayle]

This new jerusalem looks very familiar to what paul said:

The new Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb, just as the church is the wife of the Christ
Revelation 21:9 Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

The new jerusalem has 12 foundations with the apostles' names just as the household of God is built on the foundation of the apostles
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Ephesians 2:19-20 Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

The new Jerusalem is the dwelling place of God, just as the body of Christ is the dwelling place of God

Revelation 21:3 Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them.
Ephesians 2:21 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

I agree with you there. There are just too many coincidences and overlaps for it not to be so, though just what it means I don't know. I love to think all the words we use for such thoughts will be shown to bring up one huge pun, when we finally see the facts. The "body of Christ", "bone of [his] bone and flesh of [his] flesh", members of his body, members of Christ, members of the Bride of Christ, and then all that submitted to the Biblical descriptions of the New Jerusalem, a "physical" place beyond comprehension, full of what call symbolism, but then we will call, "reality". To be myself, for example, perhaps, an absolutely clear street, or even a hinge on a door, operating perfectly, and in perfect union and harmony with all that love Christ, being God's dwelling place, and him being our very essence.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Satan is the god of this world just like Paul says......2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So that sounds all good and stuff, but its not scriptural in the least. The Kingdom is WITHIN US NOW..........Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus takes over control of this world because Satan is in control of everyone now except the Christians. That is why the Anti-Christ can not come forth until the Church Departs 2 Thess. 2, the gates of hell can not overcome the Church. Once the Church departs the First Seal is opened.

Think everything You said is true, however, there is a difference between a minor Kingdom on its own at the periphery of power and one. More central to society.

the Linium of Revelation 20 represents the Christian Church be coming central to society. Same Kingdom simply central to society know.

 

[Erik Nelson]

It is immaterial who does the Judging; God and Jesus are ONE.

This is what I said; only at the GWT, will everyone stand in Judgement.

The dead and those alive at that time. Proved by 1 Corinthians 15:50-56....we shall not all die, but we shall be changed in a flash.... all whose names are written in the Book of Life; into immortality and go into Eternity with God.

This includes the martyrs brought back to life when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4. They may die again...but over them the second death has no power.​

Yes, so there's only one final judgment. One final opening of the books of works and the book of life. namely revelation 20:11.

 

[Dave L]

keyword (one of them) being "throne"

God has granted Christ the Throne

the Great White Throne arrival event of Revelation 20:11 = 2nd Coming

This is true, but Peter says Jesus sits on David's throne now. also. David's throne was always God's Throne in the OT.

 

[Dave L]

So, the "full" Second Coming = Revelation 20:10 onwards?

Second Coming to judge the living and otherwise = Great White Throne Judgement of Revelation 20:10 ?

The "mini second coming like event" of Rev 19 does involve a partial resurrection of Saints who rise to reign with Christ in the Millennium... all of which I would suggest is in a heavenly spiritual sense...

but Rev 19 involves no Judgement in its full sense of opening of the books of works & Book of LIfe…

so Rev 19 cannot be the full Second Coming ?

I believe Rev 20 provides an overview of the New Covenant era. I also read Revelation not chronologically, but as a series of visions depicting the same world and heavenly conditions throughout the New Covenant era. Some call it the "Recapitulation view."

The key is in finding end of the world scenarios throughout the book. And then beginning a new series of visions leading up to the end again. This I believe forms 7 visions depicting different elements of the same events. Like the gospel provide 4 different views of the same.

 

[Dave L]

What is the Eternal Promise?
Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
After the Millennium reign of Jesus there come the Judgement and those whose names are in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and will live with God on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Canaan is a symbol of the New Heavens and earth. This is how Abraham understood it. The main reason being this universe and all therein will pass away with a great noise in fire. So the "forever" promises all find fulfillment in the eternal, and not in the temporal symbol that depicts them.

 

[seventysevens]

I believe Rev 20 provides an overview of the New Covenant era. I also read Revelation not chronologically, but as a series of visions depicting the same world and heavenly conditions throughout the New Covenant era. Some call it the "Recapitulation view."

The key is in finding end of the world scenarios throughout the book. And then beginning a new series of visions leading up to the end again. This I believe forms 7 visions depicting different elements of the same events. Like the gospel provide 4 different views of the same.

Strange how people read the Holy Bible and insert their own psychology into what is not there while refusing to accept what is there ,

 

[Dave L]

The New Heaven and New Earth do not appear until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

This is true according to Revelation 20. But what many call the millennium is presently the New Covenant era set in heaven and on earth. With the full restoration of Israel, that only the Father knows the assigned time of, taking place at the end of the world by fire, realized in the New Heavens and earth.

If the 1000 years are literal and not symbolic, everyone will know when the end of the world takes place along with the Father.

 

[seventysevens]

This is true according to Revelation 20. But what many call the millennium is presently the New Covenant era set in heaven and on earth. With the full restoration of Israel, that only the Father knows the assigned time of, taking place at the end of the world by fire, realized in the New Heavens and earth.

If the 1000 years are literal and not symbolic, everyone will know when the end of the world takes place along with the Father.

You still just don't understand - the phrase end of the world only means the end of the age when humans are kings - the word world is about people Not the planet earth , the end of the age is the beginning of Jesus reign on earth

 

[Erik Nelson]

This is true according to Revelation 20. But what many call the millennium is presently the New Covenant era set in heaven and on earth. With the full restoration of Israel, that only the Father knows the assigned time of, taking place at the end of the world by fire, realized in the New Heavens and earth.

If the 1000 years are literal and not symbolic, everyone will know when the end of the world takes place along with the Father.

I still think you could adopt a partial preterist view. You could interpret the victorious. Christian figure of Revelation 19 as some kind of combination of Christian Emperor Constantine and the Christian Council of NICEA. Which literally means Council of VICTORY The Christian Church, essentially declared VICTORY in 326 AD. And Christianity reign Supreme in Society for the next 1000 years throughout the Middle Ages until the fall of Constantinople. In the end of the Byzantine Empire, which everybody's history book identifies as 1000 year Christian Empire.

If so, we have been living in the little time or in Greek Micros Khronos. Of the Deceiver since the fall of Constantinople in 1453.

My main point is that the micros Cronos of the Deceiver throws an indeterminate amount of time into the eschatological Chronology. So preserving the father's unique knowledge of the same.

 

[Dave L]

You still just don't understand - the phrase end of the world only means the end of the age when humans are kings - the word world is about people Not the planet earth , the end of the age is the beginning of Jesus reign on earth

Peter says:

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness, looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.” (2 Peter 3:10–14)

 

[seventysevens]

Peter says:

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness, looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.” (2 Peter 3:10–14)

Peter said in that same expressed statement
"8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

One day in the time frame of eternal realm is like a 1000 year period of time of the earthly human realm-
at the end of the one day is when the earth in verse 10 takes place - after the 1000 year time frame of satan being imprisoned - satan will not be allowed onto the new earth or the new heavens or the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven

 

[claninja]

It hasn't come in power yet. It hasn't yet crushed all other kingdoms into dust.

The Babylonian empire, the Persian empire, the Greek empire, the Roman Empire. They don’t exist anymore so they? Or have they ended?

 

[Dave L]

Peter said in that same expressed statement
"8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

One day in the time frame of eternal realm is like a 1000 year period of time of the earthly human realm-
at the end of the one day is when the earth in verse 10 takes place - after the 1000 year time frame of satan being imprisoned - satan will not be allowed onto the new earth or the new heavens or the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven

What do you think Peter meant by this? Is he illustrating that large expanses of time are like a minute or a day to God? Or something else?

 

[ebedmelech]

Our Lord reigns right now...and many do not grasp that. It's solidly stated by Jesus to the disciples at Matthew 28:18:
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

It's reiterated by Paul in Ephesians 1:18-23 where Paul prays the the Ephesian church might understand it:
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

How is it one reads that and not understand Christ reigns now?

 

[DavidPT]

This is true, but Peter says Jesus sits on David's throne now.

I agree with this except for the 'now' part. I think you got that part wrong.

also. David's throne was always God's Throne in the OT.

Assuming that may have been the case, David's throne, and the Father's throne in heaven, no way can these be meaning one and the same if that is what you are trying to say. Currently Jesus is not sitting in His own throne, but is currently set down with His Father in His throne.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Unless Matthew 25:31 has already been fulfilled, obviously Jesus has yet to sit on His own throne, which I take to be connected with sitting on David's throne. He certainly isn't sitting on David's throne in heaven, unless someone wants to claim the Father's throne in heaven, this is David's throne. I'm pretty certain the Father already possessed this throne, whether literal or not, way before David was even born.

I just feel some of you are not thinking some of these things through very well. Or maybe it's me that isn't? Yet I'm the one being logical here though, or it at least it seems so.

 

[seventysevens]

What do you think Peter meant by this? Is he illustrating that large expanses of time are like a minute or a day to God? Or something else?

It would be something like that but as he stated in days not minutes , like 2 days have passed since the crucifixion took place , considering that Peter was a very close friend of Jesus , whom Jesus said He will build His church , and John was also a very close friend of Jesus , and John explicitly given by Jesus after Jesus ascended into heaven exactly what to write down and give to the believers about what will happen When Jesus returns and since Jesus has not yet returned it is still yet to come ,
Jesus told John about satan being cast into the pit for a time period of 1000 years - THAT was given in explicit time frame
, Now that does not have to mean 1000 times (365 day years), but it does represent that satan will be imprisoned for a very long time in human time span - but in the time span of God - eternity is past present and future all at the same time so that is why there is no time frame or counting of time in the eternal realm

As with ALL scripture - it should be read as you would read a letter from a friend or relative that writes you a letter
Theology is NOTHING more than mens attempt to interpret Gods Word - you can be sure that when Paul wrote scripture he was not putting a secret code in it that would require his readers to 'read into' something that is not there

just as darwinism that teaches men came from apes and all life came from a single cell - many theologies are rooted in assumption because just like the people who simply cannot accept that we wont know when Jesus returns until happens they seek to put a date on it based on assumed things - and while many theologies do something similar amil does it almost exclusively - because instead of simply accepting what scripture says they insist in looking into thousand of years ago history to interpret scripture , and when they find something similar they insist it is the fulfillment of scripture that has not yet been fulfilled - just as Darwinism insists that evolution is what happened and reject creation - amil insist everything has already happened and refuse to believe there is yet to be fulfillment of the Living Word of God - in short they put limitations of what God can do when they put God in a box with restrictions that are limited to human understandings

 

[Dave L]

It would be something like that but as he stated in days not minutes , like 2 days have passed since the crucifixion took place , considering that Peter was a very close friend of Jesus , whom Jesus said He will build His church , and John was also a very close friend of Jesus , and John explicitly given by Jesus after Jesus ascended into heaven exactly what to write down and give to the believers about what will happen When Jesus returns and since Jesus has not yet returned it is still yet to come ,
Jesus told John about satan being cast into the pit for a time period of 1000 years - THAT was given in explicit time frame
, Now that does not have to mean 1000 times 365 , but it does represent that satan will be imprisoned for a very long time in human time span - but in the time span of God - eternity is past present and future all at the same time so that is why there is no time frame or counting of time in the eternal realm

As with ALL scripture - it should be read as you would read a letter from a friend or relative that writes you a letter
Theology is NOTHING more than mens attempt to interpret Gods Word - you can be sure that when Paul wrote scripture he was not putting a secret code in it that would require his readers to 'read into' something that is not there

just as darwinism that teaches men came from apes and all life came from a single cell - many theologies are rooted in assumption because just like the people who simply cannot accept they we wont know when Jesus returns until happens they seek to put a date on it based on assumed things - and while many theologies do something similar amil does it almost exclusively - because instead of simply accepting what scripture says they insist in looking into thousand of years ago history to interpret scripture , and when they find something similar they insist it is the fulfillment of scripture that has not yet been fulfilled - just as Darwinism insists that evolution is what happened and reject creation - amil insist everything has already happened and refuse to believe there is yet to be fulfillment of the Living Word of God - in short they put limitations of what God can do when they put God in a box with restrictions that are limited to human understandings

I think it's always best to go with the simple obvious meaning. In this case, God thinks in aeons, not years or thousands of years.

 

[Dave L]

I agree with this except for the 'now' part. I think you got that part wrong.



Assuming that may have been the case, David's throne, and the Father's throne in heaven, no way can these be meaning one and the same if that is what you are trying to say. Currently Jesus is not sitting in His own throne, but is currently set down with His Father in His throne.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Unless Matthew 25:31 has already been fulfilled, obviously Jesus has yet to sit on His own throne, which I take to be connected with sitting on David's throne. He certainly isn't sitting on David's throne in heaven, unless someone wants to claim the Father's throne in heaven, this is David's throne. I'm pretty certain the Father already possessed this throne, whether literal or not, way before David was even born.

I just feel some of you are not thinking some of these things through very well. Or maybe it's me that isn't? Yet I'm the one being logical here though, or it at least it seems so.

Peter knows best. He says Jesus sits on David's Throne beginning with his resurrection.

“So then, because he [David] was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.” (Acts 2:30–31)

Again, David's Throne was always God's Throne. It is now in heavenly Jerusalem.

“Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.” 1 Kings 2:12 (KJV 1900)

“Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.” 1 Chronicles 29:23 (KJV 1900)

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Revelation 3:21 (KJV 1900)

“And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.” 1 Chronicles 28:5 (KJV 1900)

“Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.” 2 Chronicles 9:8 (KJV 1900)

“And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:” Revelation 22:1–3 (KJV 1900)

 

[seventysevens]

I think it's always best to go with the simple obvious meaning. In this case, God thinks in aeons, not years or thousands of years.

You do have scripture that says that limitation is upon God
Gods ways are not our ways , when people insist to make our ways Gods ways they will always be wrong - just as all the people who think they have calculated the day when Jesus returns or the rapture are always wrong and always will be until Jesus returns
You proclaiming God thinks in aeons reveals your close association to Gnosticism
God has in His WORD used time frames in years repeatedly and not at all in aeon