Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Erik Nelson]

Yes, he did, and so did David, but Abraham hasn't received his inheritance yet.

why is that?

 

[συνείδησις]

Solomon ruled all of the promised territories

So? What does that have to do with GOD's promise to Abraham in Genesis 15? The seed is Christ.

 

[συνείδησις]

The kingdom came.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

It hasn't come in power yet. It hasn't yet crushed all other kingdoms into dust.

 

[συνείδησις]

why is that?

And all these, although they were approved through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us. Hebrews 11:39-40

 

[jgr]

It hasn't come in power yet. It hasn't yet crushed all other kingdoms into dust.

But it still has come.

 

[keras]

That's not GOD's problem. He fulfilled his promise. The book says so.

No; its His peoples problem, because just as God knew they would, they married and took on the false religions of those peoples. They were exiled for this and the time is yet to come, when all of God's faithful people will occupy the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there; His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

 

[keras]

could we not identify the "full" Second Coming = Revelation 20:10 onwards?

No. Jesus Returns in His glory for His Millennium reign, immediately after the Great Tribulation. Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:29-30

 

[Erik Nelson]

No. Jesus Returns in His glory for His Millennium reign, immediately after the Great Tribulation. Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:29-30

where is the Judgement of the living & otherwise in Rev 19 ?

 

[seventysevens]

The Millennium is a Christian realm steeped in the spiritual presence of Christ and the Saints (Revelation 20:4-6).

However, the Second Coming to judge the quick & otherwise (2 Timothy 4:1 = Apostles' Creed = Nicene Creed) would "have" to be Revelation 20:10, yes? That is the only place & time when & where the Book of Life (and maybe along with some other "books of works" as it were) is opened

Millennium is 1000 , a 1000 time frame that satan is locked in the abyss - You will have a greater understanding of the Bile if you read it in the same frame of mind as you have when reading a letter from your mom and dad , sister or brother , or the electric bill , or a letter from the IRS - read it and accept it as it is written - THAT is how Jesus spoke of the scriptures - the problem that some have in todays world is they follow a theology and instead of reading the bible as it is written they read it as if they must follow mens traditions -


Give some thought to how it was possible for Jim Jones to convince 900+ people to commit suicide regarding bible scriptures
It happened only because 900+ people chose not to read the bible as it is written and chose to follow a false teaching because Jim Jones spoke of it in a way that sounded convincing and people chose to believe it- all they had to do was say no that is not what Jesus taught

 

[keras]

where is the Judgement of the living & otherwise in Rev 19 ?

The Judgement of all the dead who have ever lived and of those alive at the end of the Millennium, is at the Great White Throne. Revelation 20:11-15
The only Judgement Jesus makes, is firstly of the nations, Psalms 110:5-6 and of the martyrs. Revelation 20:4

 

[Erik Nelson]

The Judgement of all the dead who have ever lived and of those alive at the end of the Millennium, is at the Great White Throne. Revelation 20:11-15
The only Judgement Jesus makes, is firstly of the nations, Psalms 110:5-6 and of the martyrs. Revelation 20:4

2 Timothy 4:1 ?

 

[DavidPT]

The Judgement of all the dead who have ever lived and of those alive at the end of the Millennium , is at the Great White Throne. Revelation 20:11-15
The only Judgement Jesus makes, is firstly of the nations, Psalms 110:5-6 and of the martyrs. Revelation 20:4

What I have underlined in your post above, it contradicts the following Scriptures.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is no one at this judgment who are still physically alive, as in they never physically died a first death. Everyone at this judgment are the dead. That means everyone of these have physically died at some point, and therefore have to be referring to the rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5.

 

[keras]

2 Timothy 4:1 ?

It is immaterial who does the Judging; God and Jesus are ONE.

What I have underlined in your post above, it contradicts the following Scriptures:
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is what I said; only at the GWT, will everyone stand in Judgement.

The dead and those alive at that time. Proved by 1 Corinthians 15:50-56....we shall not all die, but we shall be changed in a flash.... all whose names are written in the Book of Life; into immortality and go into Eternity with God.

This includes the martyrs brought back to life when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4. They may die again...but over them the second death has no power.​

 

[claninja]

That makes a mockery of GOD's promise in Genesis 15.

So you don't believe the true promiseland is a heavenly one?

What does it mean for abraham to be given posession of the land?

Genesis 15:8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”

God makes a covenant and tells abraham this is how:

Genesis 15:16 Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

God gave this land to Abraham
Genesis 28:4 May he give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham, so that you may take possession of the land where you now reside as a foreigner, the land God gave to Abraham.”
Genesis 35:12 The land that I gave to Abraham and Isaac I will give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.”


Steven quotes this:

Acts 7:5-7 He gave him no inheritance here, not even enough ground to set his foot on. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child. 6God spoke to him in this way: ‘For four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated. 7But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,’ God said, ‘and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.’

and a few verse later states this:

Acts 7:17 “As the time drew near for God to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased.


**Abraham gains possession of the land by his offspring inheriting the land.

This has been fulfilled:
Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there

And yet even when David was king of Israel, he still states they are strangers and sojourners
1 Chronicles 29:15
For we are strangers before you and sojourners, as all our fathers were. Our days on the earth are like a shadow, and there is no abiding.

Because the true promiseland is a heavenly one

 

[claninja]

Actually they didn't clear the Land as they were told to do. Judges 1:19, 21,27, and 29-34 all say how the original inhabitants remained and eventually caused problems for the Israelites, leading to their eviction out of the Land.

The final fulfilment of all the Lord's faithful people living in all of the Promised Land, awaits the cleansing and clearance that the Lord will do on His Day of wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +

You are right, They, the israelites, did not live up to their part of the covenant and drive out the the original inhabitants. But that does not mean God's promises were not yet fulfilled:

Joshua 21:43-45
Thus the LORD gave Israel all the land He had sworn to give their fathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their fathers. None of their enemies could stand against them, for the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; everything was fulfilled.

Joshua 23:14-16 Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know with all your heart and soul that not one of the good promises the LORD your God made to you has failed. Everything was fulfilled for you; not one promise has failed. 15But just as every good thing the LORD your God promised you has come to pass, likewise the LORD will bring upon you the calamity He has threatened, until He has destroyed you from this good land He has given you. 16If you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God

 

[Revealing Times]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Satan is the god of this world just like Paul says......2 Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So that sounds all good and stuff, but its not scriptural in the least. The Kingdom is WITHIN US NOW..........Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus takes over control of this world because Satan is in control of everyone now except the Christians. That is why the Anti-Christ can not come forth until the Church Departs 2 Thess. 2, the gates of hell can not overcome the Church. Once the Church departs the First Seal is opened.

 

[claninja]

Abraham's desire was for a city made by GOD, the New Jerusalem (same verse), which in another verse is described as descending out of heaven after the millennium to where men are on earth.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men, and he will take up residence with them, and they will be his people and God himself will be with them as their God. Revelation 21:2-3​

This new jerusalem looks very familiar to what paul said:

The new Jerusalem is the bride of the Lamb, just as the church is the wife of the Christ
Revelation 21:9 Then one of the seven angels with the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b 32This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

The new jerusalem has 12 foundations with the apostles' names just as the household of God is built on the foundation of the apostles
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Ephesians 2:19-20 Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

The new Jerusalem is the dwelling place of God, just as the body of Christ is the dwelling place of God
Revelation 21:3 Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them.
Ephesians 2:21 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.


The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.


The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.


Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.


But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.


Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.

It’s not so complicated. The dominion that the Bible prophesied the kingdom of God was to have is a dominion of influence and ideals in the affairs of men. Been happening ever since Jesus came. Happening in earnest since the end of the age of the four gentile empires. Surprised so few see that influence and the degree of transformation the world has already experienced from the utter madness that dominated the ancient word to the world we have now.
Here is how it is happening.
It’s my article if anyone is wondering.
http://wordservice.org/Government of God/gg1001.htm

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm not sure where you get that they all try to build this physical kingdom on earth. We do try to be a Godly church, but most Christians I am familiar with have no misconceptions that we are to "usher in" the Kingdom of God, or have some organization already in place at that time that will have a special duty or place within his Kingdom --certainly not that will itself BE his Kingdom. That is a Jehovah's Witness kind of thing, utterly false.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual.

This touches on something that ever since as a very young man I noticed in CS Lewis' writings, and has been built on in my mind by reading from the old Reformed writers --the idea that God, heaven and the spiritual is not modeled by what is "seen" in this life, but the other way around --that, for example, God is not like my father but rather that my father is like God, however poorly so. I cannot use my father to describe God, (though as a child I certainly did). I need the Word for that.

The Kingdom of God will indeed be "physical" but I don't think it will be what we consider physical, but something that makes this "physical" we consider in this life look silly and unsubstantial.