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Featured Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Dave L, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    How about the text below?


    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    What you say here is not scripture. it is an interpretation of the meaning of a scripture. That is essentially different.
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Again, all of this is nothing but interpretation. The scriptures very explicitly say that there will be both flesh and blood and also sin and death during the millennium.
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Meshech remains today under the name Muscow, or Muscovy. Tubal settled in the area now known as Tobol. Both are areas in Russia.

    The Amorites are the inhabitants of the central portion of today’s Jordan. I do not immediately remember the modern identities of the Hitites and the Canianites.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    duplicate delete
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whom does Scripture explicitly and literally identify the prince as in the following?

    Daniel 9
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus's people were not the Romans, so the prince was not him. Jesus was born a Jew.

    We don't know who, by name yet, the prince who shall come is. But he will be associated with Romans in some way.
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    We remember your ridiculous claims about this passage. But "Messiah the prince" and "the prince that shall come" are two different designations, regardless of what you say.

    "As "the people of" "the prince that shall come" were going to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" we know, of a certainty that "the prince that shall come will be a Roman. For it was the Romans that destroyed the city and the sanctuary.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Until you can produce scripture showing a gap in the 70 weeks, and a pre-trib rapture, your entire eschatology comes from silence and is nothing more than wild imaginations.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you had scripture to support a gap in the 70 weeks, and scripture to support a pre-trib rapture, it would make sense to consider your position. But you have no scriptural basis for it.
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The Two Peoples of God doctrine is a form of Dual Covenant Theology which ignores Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which show that the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jewish people during the first century, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

    It ignores Peter addressing the crowd as "all the house of Israel", in Acts of the Apostles 2:36.

    It ignores Paul calling himself an "Israelite" even after his conversion in Romans 11:1.

    It ignores James addressing his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in "faith", in James 1:1-3.

    And it ignores the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.


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    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So that would make Russia a nation, not Meschech and tubal

    That would make Jordan a nation. The amorite nation no longer exists.

    Modern Identities are not the same as 2500 year old ancient tribal nations.

    Is America the same nation as those that immigrated to it?
     
  13. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Instead of making allegations , why do you never provide any support for your false beliefs ? Anyone can merely post a scriptural verse while not understanding the verse - happens all the time with amil , unless you can truly prove what it means , how it applies , and why it means what you think it means - it has no use - Seems you think that all you have to do is deny the truth and
     
  14. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    If you move to live in another country does that change the ethnic heritage of who you were born as ?
     
  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If scripture is silent on most of what you say, you need to come up with another theory.
     
  16. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Is this too difficult for you ?
    Scripture is available to you , but you seem not to have any understanding of what it says or means , so for your lack of understanding to add in all the allegations that prove you do not understand , even when asking you to provide scriptural understanding , you refuse to do so and just continue making allegations , you entire theory is based on denial
     
  17. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Answer, part 1:


    The seventy week prophecy was revealed to Daniel in the following words. “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.” (Daniel 9:24)

    First, we need to understand that, although most of our English translations say seventy weeks, the Hebrew word translated weeks was shabuwa' (word number 7620 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word was used in the Old Testament for both a period of seven days and a period of seven years. Only the context could show whether days of years was meant. An in this case, the context clearly shows that the meaning could not even possibly been days. So it is not simply interpretation to take seventy weeks as meaning 490 years. This is a fully legitimate meaning of the Hebrew words used here.

    Daniel was told, “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.” (Daniel 9:25) Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the command until Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order. I cannot personally testify as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

    But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read, “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9:26)

    Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But according to history, the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

    But the last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks had already been used up. So this week had to be the seventieth one. We read, “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (Daniel 9:27)

    Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

    But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem, Because you have said, ‘We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.’ Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.”
    Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read, “On a lofty and high mountain You have set your bed; Even there you went up To offer sacrifice. Also behind the doors and their posts You have set up your remembrance; For you have uncovered yourself to those other than Me, And have gone up to them; You have enlarged your bed And made a covenant with them; You have loved their bed, Where you saw their nudity. You went to the king with ointment, And increased your perfumes; You sent your messengers far off, And even descended to Sheol.”

    So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant that God will not allow to be fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this covenant in mentioned.
     
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Answer, part 2:


    Some imagine that the existence of this gap is a relatively new concept, first developed by the dispensational teachers of the nineteenth century. But this is an error. The oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day is the last ten chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus titled “Against Heresies,” which is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188. In this work Irenaeus spoke of the reign of an evil ruler whom he taught would come in the future, calling him “Antichrist,” and saying:

    “And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

    So there can be no rational debate that Irenaeus taught that the last of the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel would be fulfilled in his own future, not in his past.
    Something on the order of twenty or so years after Irenaeus penned these words, Hyppolytus wrote the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day. His work was a commentary on Daniel which is thought to have been written sometime between the years 202 and 211. Hyppolytus very clearly taught a gap in the prophecy of the seventy weeks, saying:

    “For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3, as rendered in the forthcoming translation by T. C. Schmidt, personally provided by him to the author.)

    Later in this same work, Hyppolytus said:

    “Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2, as above.)

    Again, Clement of Alexandria whose work is believed to have “been given to the world in 194 A.D., wrote, “That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judæa was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, ‘the Holy of Holies,’ having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those ‘sixty and two weeks,’ as the prophet said, and ‘in the one week,’ was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.” (“The Stromata,” by Clement of Alexandria, book 1, chapter 21, from “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe,and as found online at http://www.ccel.org.)

    Here we see that Clement, though he did not see the gap in the seventy weeks extending into his own future, as did both Irenaeus, who wrote before him, and Hyppolytus, who wrote after him, he also saw a short gap in the same prophey, putting the seventieth week in the time on Nero and Vespacian, nearly forty years after the end of the sixty-ninth week.

    Since these are the only three surviving documents from this period that spoke of the subject, we see that this gap in the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel was not only indicated in the very text of the scriptures themselves, it was also taught by every Christian writer who commented on the subject in the first two centuries of the history of the church. (That is, of course, every such writer whose works have survived to the present day.)

    The length of this gap is not stated in scripture. But two of the three Christian writers from before the year 200 who commented on when these things would take place, and whose works have been preserved, thought that it would be at the end of earth's six thousandth year. ( Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XV, Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVII, sections 2-3 and book V, chapter XXXIII, section 2) Since they used the chronology of the Septuagint, that would mean that they expected the gap to be around 450 to 500 years.

    Every other Christian writer who wrote on Bible Prophecy before the year 200, and whose works have been preserved, said there would be a future kingdom on this earth that would last a thousand years. (Dialogue With Trypho, by Justin Martyr, chapters LXXX-LXXXI and Eusebius' comments on Papias, The Church History, by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, sections 12-13.)

    Indeed, in the early church futurism was so prevalent that in the fifth century Justin wrote that "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Answer concerning pre-trib, part 1:

    Who said we do not have scripture to support out pre-trib position? No one except those who imagine they have scriptural proof that the rapture will not be pre-trib.

    Jesus spoke of the rapture, saying, “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2-3)

    But we also read, “that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:13)

    In the first passage above our Lord says “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The second one speaks of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” It is obvious that His coming to receive us to Himself has to take place before His coming “with all His saints.” The words used by the Holy Spirit do not allow any other conclusion. But how long before “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” will He “come again and receive” us to Himself?

    The answer to this question begins with the promise, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this verse is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) which indeed means from, but in the sense of away from or out of.

    Some imagine that this only means out of after being in the “hour of trial.” But Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines ek, as it is used in Revelation 3:10, to mean “to keep one at a distance from.” Indeed, this becomes obvious when we consider the word “keep” in this phrase. This word is translated from the Greek word tereo. (word number 5083 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) It literally means to guard, but in the scriptures was usually used in the sense of our English word keep, and is so translated more than two-thirds of the times tero occurs in the Greek text of the New Testament. So it is clear that the real meaning of this promise is to be kept out of “the hour of trial.” { To really understand this, we need to consider another promise made concerning a part of the same time period. The Lord said to Israel, “Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of ·Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.” (Jeremiah 30:6-7) In this case, the Hebrew word translated saved is yasha’. (word number 3467 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This Hebrew word means saved in the sense of succor. In the KJV, this Hebrew word is rendered save 149 times, deliver 13 times, help 12 times, and once as rescue. We notice this to clearly understand that this Hebrew word carries an entirely different sense from the Greek word tereo used in Revelation 3:10. In one case, the Lord promised to help some of His own get through a time of trouble designed for themselves. In the other, He promised to keep others of His own out of a time of testing designed for others.}

    But what is this “the hour of trial” that they will be kept out of? The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” It is specifically called “the hour,” for the word “the” is in the Greek text, as the word ho. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary)

    {Unlike English, in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew, definite articles are normally used only for stress. If the word “the” is in the original text, it means the thing being referred to is a particular thing, not just something in general.}

    But what “hour of trial” is this specific time that they a (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) re they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

    There is a specific “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word here translated to test is peirasmon. (a singular infinitive of peirasmos, word number 3985 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This literally means exactly as it is translated, to test. So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.” Its purpose is not to test the saints of God, but “those who dwell on the earth.” This is a moral class, those whose hearts are on the earth, rather than in heaven. This moral class is named in these words eight times in the Revelation, and always in a negative light.{See Revelation 3:10, 11:10, 13:8, 13:12, 13:14 (twice) 14:6 and 17:8 See them also as “inhabitants of the earth” in Revelation 12:12.}

    But we are also told where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” The Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing. So there is coming a specific time of testing, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the Lord’s own are promised that they will be kept out of that time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the Lord’s own will be kept out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing. So we see that Revelation 3:10 says the Lord’s own will be removed from the earth before this time of testing begins.

    We see this again in a passage about Noah and Lot. “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:4-9)

    Here the Holy Spirit gives us two specific examples, Noah and Lot, both of whom were physically removed from the scene of judgment before it took place. Then, in the context of these two examples, the Holy Spirit said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:9)

    Thus the Holy Spirit showed His intention to “deliver the godly out of temptations” by physically removing them from the scene “of temptations” before they take place, just as He did for Noah and Lot. The Greek word here translated from is the same ek used in Revelation 3:10, which normally means from in the sense of away from or out of. And the Greek word translated temptations is peirasmon, the same word that was used in Revelation 3:10. There are no accidents in the precise wording of scripture. The fact that the Holy Spirit used these same two words in these two parallel passages is highly significant.

    Again, we read of the coming of “the man of sin.” The Holy Spirit said “And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) In this scripture the Holy Spirit first clearly identified the restrainer as a personality by calling him He. Then He said “you know what is restraining.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that he was speaking of Himself. No other possible individual could be so obvious he did not need to be named.

    We are told that “He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” How can this be, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth”is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that He will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”

    We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” The Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of truth,”is truly given “that He may abide with you forever.” But Jesus, “the Lord Himself,” will also “descend from heaven” and catch us up “to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

    This event has to be the time when the Holy Spirit is “taken out of the way.” This is because the Holy Spirit will be with the saints of God forever, so He cannot be “taken out of the way” either before or after the saints of God are removed from this earth.

    It is therefore plain that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” at the same time the Saints of God will be “caught up... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But it is only after that happens that “the lawless one will be revealed.” For we remember that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) So this scripture, which shows that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” before the Antichrist, “the lawless one,” will be revealed thereby shows that the rapture has to take place before that time.

    We see this again in the parable of the ten virgins, where we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see “those who were ready” taken into the wedding while “the other virgins” are held outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. The fact that the door remains closed for those that were not “ready” is highlighted in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, where we are told that “they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” But we need to remember that this is after “those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” That is, at the time of the rapture.

    Finally, in Revelation 4:4 we read, “Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.” As there were twelve tribes in Israel and twelve apostles, this appears to indicate the presence of all the Old Testament and New Testament saints of God already in heaven before the beginning of the seal and trumpet visions of Revelation six through nine. While this is only interpretation, it is yet another reason for concluding that the rapture comes before the tribulation period.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    A future 70th week of Daniel only works by ignoring the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which was fulfilled by Christ during the first century, and by ignoring the time period when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
    Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18 reveal this time period.

    Daniel had been reading from the Book of Jeremiah before the angel Gabriel appeared.

    Are we supposed to believe the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

    The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

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    Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.



    Daniel 9:27

    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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