Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Riberra]

Okay you are looking at it from the no rapture, or as someone else would who has the post trib view, position.

But let's consider the opposite possibility. And that the rapture actually takes place before the great tribulation.

keras, if a person teaches against a rapture of people going to heaven, or that Christians have no choice but to go through the great tribulation should they be alive at time (the post trib view)_ - should that person who leads others astray (in this possibility), be counted as worthy to be taken in a rapture should it happen, or if it should take place before the great tribulation begins?

I think persons will receive according to what they believe. So if a person believes and actively denounces the possibility of a rapture - then that is likely what that person is going to experience, no rapture.

Or if a person believes and actively teaches other not to believe in a pre-great tribulation rapture - then that is likely what person is going to experience, not taken if the rapture take place pre-great tribulation.

.

Do we agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the passage used by the pre-tribulation rapturists promoters since John Darby have pushed that idea of a rapture to Heaven before the Tribulation.

Do you know that many members of his movement where not in agreement with Darby about a rapture happening before the Coming of Jesus in Glory. ,they were rather saying that the text point to a caught up and gathering to meet Jesus in the air that will happen unto the Coming of Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

To solve the problem Darby have invented the coming of Jesus in 2 phases.

-The first phase being the coming of Jesus to rapture His true ecclesia before the tribulation .
-The second phase Jesus returning with the Church after the tribulation.

So, we have two group of people on this forum
-The majority with their rose colored glasses see a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation and imagine a two phase coming because they have been teach that idea since they were child.

-Very few are able to understand that the text say unto the Coming of the Lord. written in verse 15

 

[keras]

Be specific dude

Your teaching of a rapture removal to heaven of yourself and only those who agree with that theory.

keras, if a person teaches against a rapture of people going to heaven, or that Christians have no choice but to go through the great tribulation should they be alive at time (the post trib view)_ - should that person who leads others astray (in this possibility), be counted as worthy to be taken in a rapture should it happen, or if it should take place before the great tribulation begins?

As the Bible nowhere tells us that it is God's Plan to take living people to heaven, I can confidently discount your premise.
Why is it so hard to see what God's actual Plan for His people is? They are destined to inhabit all the holy Land, where they will, at last, be His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10
Then, we have the promise of a place of safety [on earth] during the GT, for all who maintain their faith when the AC conquers them. Daniel 11:31-35, Revelation 12:14

 

[Douggg]

Do we agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the passage used by the pre-tribulation rapturists promoters since John Darby have pushed that idea of a rapture to Heaven before the Tribulation.

Do you know that many members of his movement where not in agreement with Darby about a rapture happening before the Coming of Jesus in Glory. ,they were rather saying that the text point to a caught up and gathering to meet Jesus in the air that will happen unto the Coming of Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

To solve the problem Darby have invented the coming of Jesus in 2 phases.

-The first phase being the coming of Jesus to rapture His true ecclesia before the tribulation .
-The second phase Jesus returning with the Church after the tribulation.

So, we have two group of people on this forum
-The majority with their rose colored glasses see a rapture to Heaven before the tribulation and imagine a two phase coming because they have been teach that idea since they were child.

-Very few are able to understand that the text say unto the Coming of the Lord. written in verse 15

I am not saying that you can't believe what you want and expound that view to influence others.

What I am saying is that there are consequences to those actions. Which if the rapture takes place at time they would have believed otherwise, to that which you are promoting as just can't happen - then I don't see you as being worthy to be taken in a rapture that you say can't happen.

The whole concept of Luke 21:34-36 is to be watching for the rapture, hopeful it will happen, as a core value in a person's life. But what you are promoting is no - that it can't happen, or that post-trib says can only happen at the end of the great tribulation at Jesus's return.

I am anytime rapture view, btw, that the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it does.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Don't pass it up [Revelation 3:10]

Revelation 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

To try them that dwell on the Earth. That's not the same thing as wrath. The Revelation itself talks about an "uncountable" number coming out of the great tribulation praising God. Like all trials and tribulations, they test our faith and encourage us to turn to the lord for our help and salvation. A few of us have tried several times to get pre-tribbers dealing with this glaring discrepancy. There is a clear distinction between tribulation, which God allows all his people, including Jesus, to go through, and wrath, which is specifically directed at his enemies and has nothing to do with trials or repentance, but rather, destruction.

So what is straightshots solution to this obvious problem? He simply squashes them together...

When you are overtaken by the day of the Lord, enter the tribulation period of the Lord's wrath and judgment, and face the lawless one RB, tell the forum what will happen to you

How convenient.

Riberra's post #764 was a fantastic explanation on how the early Christians "escaped" their time of trouble. As for the concept of escape described in Revelation 3:10, as usual there is more context than what appears on the surface. For example, in Matthew 24 Jesus talks about people being betrayed and killed, but then he says, "not a hair on your head will be harmed". To the casual observer it may look like a contradiction. To those desperate to avoid anything uncomfortable they will only see the "you will not be harmed" part.

But Jesus wanted us to understand that God has a deeper plan than just the preservation of our physical bodies or the avoidance of anything unpleasant in life. They may kill our bodies, but not a hair of our head will be harmed, because they cannot kill the spirit. The comparison between the two, while appearing to be a contradiction, is meant to highlight just how important the spirit is over the body.

The same is true with the concept of escape. I think there will be some miraculous protection in the Great Tribulation, but this idea of all Christians avoiding any kind of suffering for their faith just isn't consistent with what Jesus taught.

 

[Postvieww]

I may be wrong but I do not believe there has been anyone posting on this thread that does not believe in a resurrection and catching up of those of those which are alive when Jesus returns. It seems to me the point of contention is the when of the resurrection and the immediate destination of those resurrected and those caught up.

It is for that reason for almost 2 years I have tried to promote the idea of harmonizing scripture on this topic rather than dividing them up into neat little piles. All scripture on the coming of the Lord should be harmonized by what they have in common not divided up by what differences they have. As long as one group takes one method and the other group choses the other method there will be no consensus and no resolution to the debate we are having. There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical in their wording, but yet some get two comings out of those differences, why not 3 or 4?.

One example is Rev 19:11-16 is a coming of the Lord passage but the argument is made there is no resurrection mentioned the focus is only on judgement. Then in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the focus in on resurrection and not judgement, so one side jumps to the conclusion these are 2 different comings. I believe that is error and can be illustrated by comparing 2 passages that most pretibbers would consider rapture scriptures.

Look at 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corin. 15 no mention of the Lord, no mention of the archangel, 1 Corin says last trump, 1 Thess. says trump of God, no mention of clouds, no mention of being caught up only changed, no mention bringing those that sleep with Him. If we apply the same set of rules to these 2 passages as we do others we could claim these 2 are different comings of the Lord. It appears to me rules of interpretation are sometimes base on convenience and not common sense.

I have occasionally ask for the people on this and other threads to point out 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical , but I have never had a response.

Below are some comparisons:

Coming and Resurrection passages.

Clouds mentioned. Matt 24:30, Matt 26:64 Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62 ,Luke 21:27, 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 14:14, Dan 7:13

Angels or angel mentioned. Matt. 24:31, Matt25:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess 4:15, Rev 14:15

Trumpet mentioned. Matt 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15, 1 Corin 15:52,

Coming with saints or armies mentioned. 1 Thess 4:14, Rev 19:14, Jude 14, Zech 14:5,

Gathering mentioned. Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess 4:17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 14:16

Dead raised mentioned. 1 Thess 4:14, 1 Corin 15:22, 1 Corin 15:51, Dan: 12:2, John 5:28-29, John 6:39,40,44,54

Riding a white horse mentioned. Rev 19:11

His feet touching ground mentioned. Zech 14:4

Sickle or reaping mentioned. Matt. 13:41, Rev 14:14,15,16,17,18,19

Crown or crowns mentioned. Rev 14:14 , Rev 19:12

Sword Mentioned. Rev 19:15 &21

Timing mentioned. Matt 24:29 , Mark 13:24, 2 Thess 2:3

What is the point here. Pretribbers often point out the differences in coming of the Lord passages to separate the them into a rapture or second coming. Post tribbers often point out the things that match to say this is the same event. If you look for the things that match you can tie everyone of these verses to 1 event. If you look for the things that are different you can make multiple comings. No one scripture ever mentions multiple comings in the plural, it is always “coming” as in one. Matt 16:28, Matt.24:3, Matt 24:27,Matt. 24:30, Matt 24:37, Matt 24:39, Matt 24:48, Matt 25:27, Matt. 24:64, 1 Corin 1:7, 1 Corin 15:23, 1 Thess. 2:19, 1 Thess. 3:13, 1 Thess 4:15, 1 Thess 5:23, 2 Thess. 2:1, 2 Thess. 2:8, James 5:7, James 5:8, 2 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 3:4, 1 John 2:28. All of these speak of one coming.


There is only 1 coming of the Lord in scripture yet in our future.

There is no return trip to heaven for those resurrected and caught up in scripture, that is only assumed.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It is for that reason for almost 2 years I have tried to promote the idea of harmonizing scripture on this topic rather than dividing them up into neat little piles. All scripture on the coming of the Lord should be harmonized by what they have in common not divided up by what differences they have. As long as one group takes one method and the other group choses the other method there will be no consensus and no resolution to the debate we are having. There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical in their wording, but yet some get two comings out of those differences, why not 3 or 4?.

Hi PV. Nice post. However, I think the opposition would look at this post and think something like, "you guys are the ones creating differences in the scriptures. We're interpreting them properly and consistently etc". Straightshot has pretty much been doing that since the first page (i.e. "don't you guys read the bible. you should learn something etc", as though a difference of perspective always equates to ignorance in his mind).

I think this is why scripture can never prove anything conclusively because scripture is only as good as the person interpreting it. Back in the days of slavery in the US, Christian slave owners claimed that the Bible supported what they were doing and it's almost certain that they argued passionately about how it's "right there in the Bible".

Perhaps this is why Jesus talked about a need to hunger and thirst for righteousness; we'll only get truth if we want it more than our bodies crave physical sustenance.

Anyway, I think the idea of harmonizing scripture is pretty good. That's why I was trying to bring the teachings of Jesus into it, like his teachings on enduring suffering, taking up our cross and other teachings about the physical vs the spiritual. When douggg responded tot hose comments with "you're just preaching at me now. This is about eschatology", I realized that he was deliberately overlooking some parts of scripture because they worked against his position. The Revelation itself says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. Imagine a seeker after truth saying something like, "Don't preach the teachings of Jesus to me when what we're really supposed to be talking about is prophecy".

 

[Psalm3704]

One example is Rev 19:11-16 is a coming of the Lord passage but the argument is made there is no resurrection mentioned the focus is only on judgement. Then in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the focus in on resurrection and not judgement, so one side jumps to the conclusion these are 2 different comings. I believe that is error and can be illustrated by comparing 2 passages that most pretibbers would consider rapture scriptures.

Look at 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corin. 15 no mention of the Lord, no mention of the archangel, 1 Corin says last trump, 1 Thess. says trump of God, no mention of clouds, no mention of being caught up only changed, no mention bringing those that sleep with Him. If we apply the same set of rules to these 2 passages as we do others we could claim these 2 are different comings of the Lord. It appears to me rules of interpretation are sometimes base on convenience and not common sense.

It's cause they're not the same passages PV. Too many people are still holding onto the idea that they are. Of all prophecies in the bible, none have I seen stumped more Christians as much as 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.







.

 

[Postvieww]

Hi PV. Nice post. However, I think the opposition would look at this post and think something like, "you guys are the ones creating differences in the scriptures. We're interpreting them properly and consistently etc". Straightshot has pretty much been doing that since the first page (i.e. "don't you guys read the bible. you should learn something etc", as though a difference of perspective always equates to ignorance in his mind).

I think this is why scripture can never prove anything conclusively because scripture is only as good as the person interpreting it. Back in the days of slavery in the US, Christian slave owners claimed that the Bible supported what they were doing and it's almost certain that they argued passionately about how it's "right there in the Bible".

Perhaps this is why Jesus talked about a need to hunger and thirst for righteousness; we'll only get truth if we want it more than our bodies crave physical sustenance.

Anyway, I think the idea of harmonizing scripture is pretty good. That's why I was trying to bring the teachings of Jesus into it, like his teachings on enduring suffering, taking up our cross and other teachings about the physical vs the spiritual. When douggg responded tot hose comments with "you're just preaching at me now. This is about eschatology", I realized that he was deliberately overlooking some parts of scripture because they worked against his position. The Revelation itself says that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. Imagine a seeker after truth saying something like, "Don't preach the teachings of Jesus to me when what we're really supposed to be talking about is prophecy".

It has been my experience in talking with Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses as well as those of several different denominations, one can “prove” just about anything they set out to “prove” from scripture, at least in their own minds. I appreciate your approach on this forum. God Bless

 

[Postvieww]

It's cause they're not the same passages PV. Too many people are still holding onto the idea that they are. Of all prophecies in the bible, none have I seen stumped more Christians as much as 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.







.

Do you believe 1Corin 15 and 1Thess 4 are the same event?

 

[Straightshot]

All scripture must harmonize, all scripture on a particular subject must be included, and the teacher must not compromise the Lord's more sure word of prophecy

All are not called to be expounders of the same, but a few .... and today there is a virtual famine in the land

Prophecy is one of the lynch pins of the Bible and serves to give assurance to the believer that it is in fact the word of the living God as it claims to be

It can be the most effective witness to the unbeliever if presented properly

It can also be abused and has been since the early "church" to this day

Men use it for self gain and most of professing Christianity is tainted with false teaching or total neglect

There is much responsibility required for those that are called to carry the message .... and not something to take lightly .... if abused, it can be a matter of eternal destiny for the presenter and the hearer

And when one is called to carry the burden, one must take the mission with the utmost care .... and at the same time to be willing not to compromise

And one can be assured of much banter and disagreement from those who think they know

The adventure is not for the novice or the timid and it requires long term study of the related scriptures and a solid understanding of historical and current events in the package

So if you are one who takes on the mantel, know that much will be required of your walk

 

[Psalm3704]

Below are some comparisons:

Coming and Resurrection passages.

Clouds mentioned. Matt 24:30, Matt 26:64 Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62 ,Luke 21:27, 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 14:14, Dan 7:13

By the way, this is actually incorrect. The timing of His coming in Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14 are not the same as all the other passages you listed.

Luke 21:27 King James Version (KJV)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Revelation 14:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.​

In Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14 He's on a single cloud. This happens when He descends from heaven upon Armageddon and judges the world.

The other scriptures He comes on clouds (plural) after the tribulation after He defeated the a/c and ended the tribulation.

The timing are different.







.

 

[Psalm3704]

Do you believe 1Corin 15 and 1Thess 4 are the same event?

No. They're resurrections of 1000 years apart. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is part of the 1st Resurrection and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is the 2nd Resurrection.

I know a lot of people will disagree but it's because 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is the biggest error of all prophecies, confounding more people than all other prophecies. Paul even said it's a mystery. Doesn't seem like a mystery does it when everyone thinks it's the rapture?

It's also why Paul said at the last trump in 1 Cor 15:51-55. After the 2nd resurrection, there's no more resurrection ever again, as everyone is immortal. That's what he meant by last trump. No more trumpet will ever be needed to sound again. Because there's no more sin, no more death, no more satan, etc.

The rapture in 1 Thess 4:16-17 also sounds a trumpet, the Trump of God for the Firstfruits.






.

 

[Straightshot]

"Do you believe 1Corin 15 and 1Thess 4 are the same event?"


Exactly the same, and so it is with 2 Thessalonians 2:1 .... here is is again [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

 

[Endtime Survivors]

All are not called to be expounders of the same, but a few .... and today there is a virtual famine in the land

If all are not called, then isn't the implication that the famine is God's fault for not calling them? This is why I just don't trust your logic regarding how you interpret. It's full of holes like this.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

That's what he meant by last trump. No more trumpet will ever be needed to sound again. Because there's no more sin, no more death, no more satan, etc.

It looks like you're saying Paul described this trumpet as "last" because there will not be any more of these things (i.e. death, sin, and satan), implying that there is a history of trumpets related to death, sin, and satan. Otherwise, there would be no point to him saying "last". In order for this trumpet to be the "last" of these things there must be other trumpets which preceded it.

Can you tell us about these other trumpets which signify death, sin, and satan?

 

[Straightshot]

"If all are not called, then isn't the implication that the famine is God's fault for not calling them? This is why I just don't trust your logic regarding how you interpret. It's full of holes like this."

Do you think it is God's fault? .... do you even know what you are talking about?

Why would you question the Lord's authority? .... strange indeed .... it is never His fault son

I see the same about your rendering of the prophetic scriptures .... I think it is full of holes

So what do you think about that?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Do you think it is God's fault? .... do you even know what you are talking about?

Why would you question the Lord's authority? .... strange indeed .... it is never His fault son

I see the same about your rendering of the prophetic scriptures .... I think it is full of holes

So what do you think about that?

Did you see that my comment was a question regarding the logic behind your assessment? Would you mind answering the question?

 

[Straightshot]

I answered .... and you missed it

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I answered .... and you missed it

Nah, you just pretended that I said something I didn't. Anyway, I think the point's been made.

 

[Straightshot]

Here is the point

This thread is about the Lord's call for His true ecclesia

He has made the timing of this event very clear in His Word

.... something that you argue against

I believe Him .... you don't

It is just that simple

I see many flaws in your walk as a prophecy teacher

It is just that simple

So there is no good purpose for you and I to continue a dialogue

I am busy .... and you need to find something better to do with your time

I am certain that you can find others on this forum who will entertain you