Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Riberra]

I am not saying that you can't believe what you want and expound that view to influence others.

What I am saying is that there are consequences to those actions. Which if the rapture takes place at time they would have believed otherwise, to that which you are promoting as just can't happen - then I don't see you as being worthy to be taken in a rapture that you say can't happen.

The whole concept of Luke 21:34-36 is to be watching for the rapture, hopeful it will happen, as a core value in a person's life. But what you are promoting is no - that it can't happen, or that post-trib says can only happen at the end of the great tribulation at Jesus's return.

I am anytime rapture view, btw, that the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it does.

You are pre-tribulation or mid tribulation rapture view only ie (before the man of sin is revealed)...but you have never envisioned the probability that it will be post tribulation and only be a caught up and gathering [nobody taken in Heaven)of the believers resurrected and of the believers alive and remaining to meet Jesus in the air ONLY UNTO His Coming to be with Him to reign with Him on the Earth ...

You and Straigthshot preach to your brethren to not being worry with the Book of Revelation -because those who believe in the rapture before the tribulation will not be there. -

I preach take care because that is not 100 % certain that this will be so easy.

The book of Revelation is addressed for the Christians in preparation for what is to come, in particular for the Christians who will live in the generation that will see these things coming.

i am sure that your defensive reaction go like this:Bah!the book of Revelation is addressed only to those that will be left behind...

When i see you saying that the revealing of the man of sin will be the Beginning of the Day of Christ ... You are in deep trouble.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I preach take care because that is not 100 % certain that this will be so easy.

The book of Revelation is addressed for the Christians in preparation for what is to come, in particular for the Christians who will live in the generation that will see these things coming.

This ^

 

[Douggg]

You and Straigthshot preach to your brethren to not being worry with the Book of Revelation -because those who believe in the rapture before the tribulation will not be there. -

I preach take care because that is not 100 % certain that this will be so easy.

Actually what I preach is the anytime rapture view. And Luke 21:34-36 which it is based on.

You preach that the rapture cannot happen before the son of man is revealed.... which runs contrary to Luke 21:34-36 to be watching.

 

[Riberra]

Actually what I preach is the anytime rapture view. And Luke 21:34-36 which it is based on.

You preach that the rapture cannot happen before the son of man is revealed.... which runs contrary to Luke 21:34-36 to be watching.

When read In context with only 3 more verses from the chapter we get a different story than your selective bias.
Verse 31 tell us that it is related to the Coming Kingdom of Jesus on earth.
Verse 36 is about The Coming of Jesus .
Worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and to stand before the Son of man. ,means being spiritually prepared to stand firm in our faith....until the Coming of Jesus as a thief Revelation 16:15.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things COME TO PASS, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Again,there is no mention of a removal to Heaven.
-WATCH - WHEN YE SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Actually what I preach is the anytime rapture view. And Luke 21:34-36 which it is based on.

When you say "anytime" does that also include the possibility of the time immediately after the tribulation?

 

[ScottA]

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What "generation?"

Till "all" what is fulfilled?

 

[Riberra]

What "generation?"

Luke 21:29-32
The generation that will see the rebudding of the fig tree.
The fig tree represent Israel.
This is about the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 with his bad and good 'figs'.
See these other Bible verses
[''Matthew 24:32-34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).'']

Till "all" what is fulfilled?

Luke 21:7-36

Matthew 24

Revelation 6 to Revelation 19

 

[Psalm3704]

It looks like you're saying Paul described this trumpet as "last" because there will not be any more of these things (i.e. death, sin, and satan), implying that there is a history of trumpets related to death, sin, and satan. Otherwise, there would be no point to him saying "last". In order for this trumpet to be the "last" of these things there must be other trumpets which preceded it.

Can you tell us about these other trumpets which signify death, sin, and satan?

You'r a crafty one. I can see how you took just a portion of what I wrote twisting what I said and corner me with your silly question. What do you take me for? You actually think I'm crazy enough to play your silly little game? Sure, I'll go along.

I have fives verses ready that can answer your question. But first you answer my five questions about your video in the OP.

In your video, you claimed the days of Lot in Luke 17:34-36 is the rapture. Here are your questions.

Luke 17:34-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”​

1) Why are there two men in one bed at night? And why is this not mentioned in the days of Noah in Matthew 24?

2) Why are there two women grinding together at night?

3) Why are two men out in the field at night?

4) If Luke 17 is the rapture, why did Luke write this prophecy in chapter 17 and not in chapter 21 where the Olivet Discourse is written about Christ return? Maybe Luke is telling us there's no post-trib rapture at the second coming? LOL

Luke 17:27-28 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;​

5) If Luke 17 is a post-trib rapture, why are people eating, drinking and celebrating marriages "immediately after the tribulation" after billions of people had just died?

Actually I got 6 questions.

6) If this is the rapture, why would the bible mention these events happening at night? When it's night here in America, it's day over there in the Middle East. The only way for the rapture to occur at night around the world would require more than one rapture.

Can you tell us how this will happen?
_____________________________________________

Do you actually know the differences between the days of Noah vs the days of Lot? Do you even know what this prophecy on the days of Lot is about?

I do and if I were you, I wouldn't dare make any prophetic type videos and expose it to millions of viewers on Youtube unless I'm 110% certain of the prophecy because Jesus said there will be false teachers and false prophets in the last days who will mislead others. Don't take it personally, it's just good, sound advice.
_________________________________________________

Okay since I came up with 6 questions instead of 5, I'll spot you not one but two scriptures to answer your question.

Here are two scriptures on the trumpets signifying death on earth.

Revelation 9:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
Revelation 8:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.​

When death is swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:54-55) and the last enemy is destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26) and thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14), do you think people will continue to die? Do you think we still need the sounding of trumpets after the last enemy destroyed?

Oops, that 8 questions, my bad. But nonetheless, your move.












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[Postvieww]

No. They're resurrections of 1000 years apart. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is part of the 1st Resurrection and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is the 2nd Resurrection.

I know a lot of people will disagree but it's because 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is the biggest error of all prophecies, confounding more people than all other prophecies. Paul even said it's a mystery. Doesn't seem like a mystery does it when everyone thinks it's the rapture?

It's also why Paul said at the last trump in 1 Cor 15:51-55. After the 2nd resurrection, there's no more resurrection ever again, as everyone is immortal. That's what he meant by last trump. No more trumpet will ever be needed to sound again. Because there's no more sin, no more death, no more satan, etc.

The rapture in 1 Thess 4:16-17 also sounds a trumpet, the Trump of God for the Firstfruits.






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I too see a first resurrection and a second resurrection in scripture, but only one for the righteous dead. That is why in many of my posts I write the statement “there is only one resurrection for the righteous dead yet in our future”. I see a second resurrection in Revelation 20. The second being for the unrighteous dead at the end of the 1000 years.

Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



Please show from scripture how you make 1 Corin 15 fit Rev 20?



1 Corin 15 is talking about a resurrection of the righteous. Paul says “we”, “dead shall be raised incorruptible”. The whole chapter, 15 is focused on the resurrection of the righteous dead.

I believe 1 Corin. 15 and 1 Thess 4 are clearly the same event, we may disagree on the timing but they both speak of the resurrection of the righteous dead.

 

[Postvieww]

By the way, this is actually incorrect. The timing of His coming in Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14 are not the same as all the other passages you listed.

Luke 21:27 King James Version (KJV)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Revelation 14:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.​

In Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14 He's on a single cloud. This happens when He descends from heaven upon Armageddon and judges the world.

The other scriptures He comes on clouds (plural) after the tribulation after He defeated the a/c and ended the tribulation.

The timing are different.







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By the way, this is actually incorrect. The timing of His coming in Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14 are not the same as all the other passages you listed.


Luke 21:27 King James Version (KJV)

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Is the above passage a coming passage?

Revelation 14:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Is the above passage a coming passage?

In Luke 21:27 and Revelation 14:14 He's on a single cloud. This happens when He descends from heaven upon Armageddon and judges the world.

The other scriptures He comes on clouds (plural) after the tribulation after He defeated the a/c and ended the tribulation.

You just proved the point of my post.

The timing are different.

Can you show us any two coming passages that are worded identical?

 

[Douggg]

When you say "anytime" does that also include the possibility of the time immediately after the tribulation?

What do you think? Yes, if the rapture hasn't happen by then. Anytime between now and when it actually happens.

But according to 2thessalonians2, it should happen before the man of sin commits the transgression of desolation.

 

[Douggg]

The generation that will see the rebudding of the fig tree.
The fig tree represent Israel.
This is about the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 with his bad and good 'figs'.
See these other Bible verses
[''Matthew 24:32-34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).'']

I think that 70 years is the best fit of a generation. I go with Jerusalem as the fig tree because as Jesus and the disciples were about to enter Jerusalem, he cursed the fig tree for having no figs.

So it's the 7 years will start no later than 2030. About 13 years away at the most - all of our troubles in this world have an end in sight.


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[Endtime Survivors]

In your video, you claimed the days of Lot in Luke 17:34-36 is the rapture.

No, you've misunderstood the information in the video. First off, Luke 17:34-36 isn't the example of Lot's day. The Lot's day example is from verses 17-32, though verses 34-36 carry on with the same theme of going when God says to go. Lot wasn't magically whisked away. He had to listen to God and then act in order to avoid the coming problems.

The idea of people not returning to their homes to get their stuff etc is not an example of the rapture. I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion based on the information in the video. Jesus is describing the Great Tribulation in these various teachings, which is why it's so important for people to listen and obey when he calls, (i.e. remember Lot's wife).

It is the pre-tribbers who usually suggest that these verses are talking about the rapture (becuase he says one will be taken and the other left), but why would Jesus warn the people not to go back for their stuff if they've already been raptured up into the air anyway?

1) Why are there two men in one bed at night? And why is this not mentioned in the days of Noah in Matthew 24?

The spirit of the lesson is that one person hears and obeys when God calls (i.e they are taken) while the other either does not hear or ignores what he hears (and is left). He also said a couple of women would be grinding in the field, which they'd not be doing at night. Whether the two people are sleeping in their beds, or grinding in a field, or driving down the road or whatever makes no difference to the lesson.

Here are two scriptures on the trumpets signifying death on earth.

Revelation 9:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
Revelation 8:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Yeah, there's actually 7 of these trumpets and they are collectively known as the "7 trumpets of the Great tribulation" by pretty much everyone, though it sounds like you are suggesting these are not trumpets 6 and 2 of the Great Tribulation? If so, then where's the first trumpet and is the 6th trumpet the last trumpet which Paul talked about, or are there more. If I have misunderstood you and you do view these trumpets as the 7 trumpets of the Great Tribulation, then that would necessarily mean that Paul's "last" trumpet is a reference to the rapture, immediately after the other 6 trumpets of the tribulation. Can you please more clearly explain your position?

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to trick you. I'm trying to understand your perspective. You suggested that the "last" trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 was not related to the 7 trumpets of the tribulation, which is why I asked you to elaborate on which other series of trumpets it did relate to.

 

[Straightshot]

"You and Straigthshot preach to your brethren to not being worry with the Book of Revelation"


I am preaching to you RB ..... and to any who hear me

You are the one who owns the problem ..... a big one .... and you need to be worried for certain

If you are alive at the time, you will go in because you refuse the Lord's promise to keep you from it

Not only that, but you think that you need to be persecuted by Him in the process

You are not saved by your works RB .... impossible

So this is another worry for you because you think so .... and apparently have been taught to believe this ruse

I would suggest that you think about leaving your "church" and turn to the Lord instead

He has a message for you [Revelation 3:15-20] .... if you do not listen He is going to send you into the tribulation of His wrath

This is not the best solution for you because there is nothing you can do to save yourself and you will not last very long in the throes of His terrible judgment .... nothing you can to to prepare before

If you get there you will be confronted with upheaval and deception .... and if you do not repent and turn to Him amidst the chaos, your destination will be even worse [Revelation 20:11-15]

Think about it

You always say that if one saved by His grace believes in His promise to keep them from His unmitigated judgment that is coming, and He is lying .... then that individual will give up their salvation and turn away .... this is hobgoblin

It is Satan who calls the Lord a liar with regard for His promise .... and the devil has motive

This one is definitely going in because the Lord is going to force him [Revelation 12]

And if you are there he is going to keep lying to you .... he has a motive

 

[Straightshot]

"It is the pre-tribbers who usually suggest that these verses are talking about the rapture (becuase he says one will be taken and the other left), but why would Jesus warn the people not to go back for their stuff if they've already been raptured up into the air anyway?"


I have to tell you that the "pre-tribers" you listen to are flat wrong

The "taken and left" has not one thing to do with the Lord's pre-tribulation call

So you have to come up with a better excuse ... give the forum other reasons for your standing

 

[Endtime Survivors]

"It is the pre-tribbers who usually suggest that these verses are talking about the rapture (becuase he says one will be taken and the other left), but why would Jesus warn the people not to go back for their stuff if they've already been raptured up into the air anyway?"


I have to tell you that the "pre-tribers" you listen to are flat wrong

The "taken and left" has not one thing to do with the Lord's pre-tribulation call

So you have to come up with a better excuse ... give the forum other reasons for your standing

I'm not making an excuse. I'm relating my personal experience of at least one of the arguments pre-tribbers usually give. It's good to hear that you don't support that particular position.

 

[Straightshot]

So what else do you have in your pocket to give excuse?

 

[ScottA]

Luke 21:29-32
The generation that will see the rebudding of the fig tree.
The fig tree represent Israel.
This is about the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 with his bad and good 'figs'.
See these other Bible verses
[''Matthew 24:32-34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).'']



Luke 21:7-36

Matthew 24

Revelation 6 to Revelation 19

Thank you for that...but my questions were rhetorical, meaning that Jesus had identified the generation already as "this" generation, saying also "Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!" John 4:35.

The point, my point, was that it is, and was, wrong to put the idea off to some distant future time...rather than understand and take to heart what He actually said.

 

[ScottA]

Why do any of you consider the rapture to be a mass event, when Paul made it clear that "each" person comes "in his own order?" 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

[Postvieww]

Why do any of you consider the rapture to be a mass event, when Paul made it clear that "each" person comes "in his own order?" 1 Corinthians 15:23

I believe the order was given in the passage.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; (afterward) they that are Christ's at his coming.

Is this too, not an order

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is this not an order also in this passage?

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What is the point you wish to make?