Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Endtime Survivors]

Your salvation does no come by your works .... but by faith in the One who has already paid the price

There are two extremes here. One is the kind of person Paul referenced in Ephesians 2 when he warned that we should not boast about our good works, because there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. He follows it up by saying that we are created to do good works. The thought being expressed is one of having a right attitude towards our works, but that we are still obligated to perform good works, which makes sense, since God is a good God. Reading back over my posts, I don't think you could honestly conclude that I am teaching or promoting the idea that we don't need God because our own works are good enough.

The other extreme is the one who shrugs off any obligation to at least try to obey Jesus on the basis that "Jesus did it all" or "Jesus paid the price". It's this kind of thinking which led Jesus to ask, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me". Obviously Jesus wants us to act on his teachings. Since I heavily referenced obedience to the teachings of Jesus to support my conclusions, the most likely scenario here is that you're using this "we're not saved by works" thing to sidestep the points I made. Imagine that, a Christian using Jesus' death on the cross to refute obedience to Jesus... If I've misunderstood your intent, feel free to let me know.

You cannot save yourself by your desire and experience of being persecuted

I think this is part of the confusion you have regarding persecution. No sincere person desires to be persecuted and yet persecution is just a matter of course for people who want to practice the goodness of God in an evil world. Jesus himself said that we should leap for joy when people persecute us; not because persecution is enjoyable but because it means our testimony is affecting those around us. I can well imagine you as a pharisee rebuking Jesus about his "desire" to be persecuted after hearing something like that!

You have been sold a persecution complex mentality and this is not a good thing for you

The issue is about whether Christians will go through the Great Tribulation or not. The Great Tribulation is hardly a persecution complex, whether we go through it or not. It is a real thing. When Jesus talked about families betraying one another, being dragged off to courts and counsel, being put to death etc, was he referencing a persecution complex? Nah. and neither am I. It really would be nice if you would just deal with the issues rather than attacking me personally.

This teaching is binding upon you to the extent that you must keep certain hand picked laws required by your religion affiliation ... and you are told that you must suffer persecution for your own purification

Nah, this is you grasping at straws.

And by the way, I am in no way a "complacent" Christian .... far from it .... do I sound like one?

At least regarding this topic, yeah, you do. All that stuff about "desiring persecution" reeks of sidestepping and bluff.

 

[Victor E.]

You have explained exactly the spiritual implications of Lot's example, but you fall short of making the connection as to why he used Lot's example in relation to the days just before his return. When God tells us to go, there will be a lot of people looking back. This is not a secret rapture scenario and that is precisely why Jesus used Lot's example.



He follows that up by saying, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" and then describes his return in the clouds and the angels gathering his followers from all over the world. As a result, your conclusion necessitates more than one rapture, and you're gonna run into a whole lot of problems going down that road. This is why Jesus goes through the effort of telling us not to go running off into the desert or the secret chambers, because his return will be like the lightening in the sky. The thought being communicated here is a one-of-a-kind event.

You've been heavily indoctrinated by someone's teachings and they do not come from a Spiritual growth. This thinking and pride remains.. worldly.

"1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly—as infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready, 3for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Are you not walking in the way of man? 4For when one of you says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?

5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role. 6I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise master builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire.

16Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

18Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” 20And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”

21Therefore stop boasting in men. All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God."

 

[Victor E.]

IF EVERYONE COULD PLEASE READ COLOSSIANS 2 IN ANY TRANSLATION, KJV PACKS A GOOD PUNCH AS IS.

"1For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

20If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21“Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22(referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.


COLOSSIANS 2. THAT IS ALL. LOVE.

 

[Straightshot]

"I think this is part of the confusion you have regarding persecution. No sincere person desires to be persecuted and yet persecution is just a matter of course for people who want to practice the goodness of God in an evil world. Jesus himself said that we should leap for joy when people persecute us; not because persecution is enjoyable but because it means our testimony is affecting those around us. I can well imagine you as a pharisee rebuking Jesus about his "desire" to be persecuted after hearing something like that!"


So this is your Internet site ES?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb04nIPAvD-CLuiWzEWNa-A

After reviewing I believe you are up to something .... what is it?

Looks like a scam to me

I will ask you for two things:

Give the forum scriptures from the Lord's Word that give you specific instructions about preparing for this [Revelation 6:12-17]

Make a listing for the forum documenting your own preparations and why you think the same will guarantee your survival against the Lord's unprecedented wrath and judgment upon a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him

And in addition, answer the following:

What is your point of preparing if you are going to be persecuted and killed? .... I'll bet that you will not last more than a week

And tell the forum about Paul Begley .... I see him on your site

I know about this false teacher and false prophet, but you tell the forum why he is on your site

 

[Endtime Survivors]

So this is your Internet site ES?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb04nIPAvD-CLuiWzEWNa-A

After reviewing I believe you are up to something .... what is it?

Yes. As for what I'm "up to", aside from the loaded phrasing, I think it'd be cool for the individual to decide for themselves what I'm up to.

Looks like a scam to me

I get the feeling all disagreements with you appear to you as scams. I'm not against exposing fraud, but I think we have yet to see that from you.

Give the forum scriptures from the Lord's Word that give you specific instructions about preparing for this [Revelation 6:12-17]

I've been pretty consistent about quoting Jesus and the Revelation to support my conclusions, but last time I did that you accused me of "working my way to Heaven". I'm still waiting for you to respond to the teachings of Jesus I've already quoted with something more than, "we can't work our way to Heaven".

What is your point of preparing if you are going to be persecuted and killed? .... I'll bet that you will not last more than a week

Maybe I won't last more than a minute, but that's the beauty of sincerity. God isn't looking at things like humans see them. He's not measuring according to time, like we'd measure sporting activities or whatever. He's measuring sincerity, integrity, character, and personal will. I'm not saying this just to one-up you, but because I believe we have a genuine difference in how we perceive the spiritual issues. I understand that you feel convinced. I understand that you have faith.

I'm not making any suggestions about your spiritual salvation. That depends solely on you, personally, and your relationship to God. No human on earth can judge you in that respect.

But, I do believe Jesus knew what he was taking about regarding our need to take up our cross, to follow him, to be prepared to face the worst humanity has to offer, to lay down our lives, that those who seek to gain their lives may succeed physically but, according to God, will lose spiritually. I don't believe such teachings were only for unbelieving Jews. These teachings are central to the courage and integrity of humanity in general.

When you compare these teachings to a "desire for persecution" and a "fetish", it hurts my feelings. I believe you are complacent, but I don't want that for you. You are my brother in Christ. I don't want you to think of suffering for our faith as something relegated for unbelievers, as though such suffering is somehow inferior or a punishment.

Suffering for our faith is not something we should desire becuase we think pain is somehow morally right, and yet suffering for righteousness is a bi-product of living in an unrighteous world. There is no way to avoid it. Running away is not the answer. Even IF God does decide that he wants to spare us from such Tribulation, that is not the vision he had for Jesus, and as his followers, it is not the vision we should have for ourselves. We SHOULD be prepared to go through as much, if not worse, that what our own master went through.

To not only expect, but to put demands on God love, that he should not expect the same, if not more from us than what he put his own son through, betrays what it means to have real faith in God's love. After all, how can we say that love is only love only if it never asks or expects us to suffer for it's own sake?

 

[Riberra]

Give the forum scriptures from the Lord's Word that give you specific instructions about preparing for this [Revelation 6:12-17]

Do you believe that there will be no survivors at all after the great worldwide earthquake mentioned in Revelation 6:12-17 ?

When this happen and you realize that you are still on the earth what will happen about your belief in an easy escape.?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Do you believe that there will be no survivors at all after the great worldwide earthquake mentioned in Revelation 6:12-17 ?

Good question

 

[Straightshot]

"I've been pretty consistent about quoting Jesus and the Revelation to support my conclusions, but last time I did that you accused me of "working my way to Heaven". I'm still waiting for you to respond to the teachings of Jesus I've already quoted with something more than, "we can't work our way to Heaven"."


Well you avoided my questions just as I thought you would .... but I am convinced of your ambitions for sure .... Ihave no further questions .... carry on

 

[Straightshot]

"When this happen and you realize that you are still on the earth what will happen about your belief in an easy escape.?"

You need to ask yourself your question RB

If you are alive and still on the earth when the events of Revelation 6:12-17 begin to take place you will know that you are under the Lord's unprecedented judgment without a doubt

I believe Him when He gives a promise .... you do not

Show the forum your scriptures that tell you He is going to subject you to the same

There are actually many by the way, however, His motive for doing so does not bode well for you

 

[Riberra]

"When this happen and you realize that you are still on the earth what will happen about your belief in an easy escape.?"

You need to ask yourself your question RB

If you are alive and still on the earth when the events of Revelation 6:12-17 begin to take place you will know that you are under the Lord's unprecedented judgment without a doubt

I believe Him when He gives a promise .... you do not

Show the forum your scriptures that tell you He is going to subject you to the same

There are actually many by the way, however, His motive for doing so does not bode well for you

So you believe that only a restricted group of Christians Protestant(the 'Darbytes') will be whisked away ie 'saved' (Darby's version of salvation) ,while the other 2 billion Christians believers in Jesus Christ will be left behind if the events of Revelation 6:12-17 are to happen tomorrow ?

Does it even makes sense to believe that ?

>>By the way you have still not showed one Bible verse saying that the Church -or a part of it- will be made immortal and will be taken to Heaven before the Tribulation.


More about the Dispensationalist theology of the Darbytes that Staighshot promote:

http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=558

Dispensational Theology
From Darby to LaHaye

Dispensationalist theology was first made popular by the nineteenth century Irish evangelist John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). Darby was a tireless preacher, teacher and church organizer. Darby was also a "compulsive writer of letters, tracts, booklets, articles and books (some 52 volumes)."[2] As Tim LaHaye points out, Darby "did more than any other man to organize and popularize the view in both the United States and Great Britain.

The Left Behind novels are inspired by Dr. Tim LaHaye's reading of prophetic biblical texts. The theology articulated by LaHaye is today known by several names -- dispensational premillennialism, premillennial dispensationalism, and, sometimes, simply dispensationalism. Concerned with events surrounding the second coming of Christ, several premillennial events are of particular importance to dispensationalism -- the Rapture, in which God's "true church" is lifted into heaven;

 

[Postvieww]

Straightshot Said post #516


When an issue like this one is so highly controversial, one can know that a war is being waged between the forces of good and evil

Very true words, I agree with your statement completely.

Which side of this issue takes the passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and has to interpret the clear meaning that our gathering will not take place until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed right out of our bibles to make it agree with other fallacies?

Which side finds or imagines multiple resurrections when there is but one future resurrection for the righteous dead in our future found in scripture?

Which side finds multiple comings of the Lord in our future when scripture only speaks of one coming yet future and never uses the phrase “comings of the Lord”?

Which side totally ignores the words of Jesus in John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54 that the resurrection will be at the last day?

Which side ignores Job 19:25-26 where Job says in his flesh he will see God when his redeemer stands “at the latter day upon the earth”.

Which side has to ignore or reinterpret the words of Jesus “immediately after the tribulation”?

Which side puts a resurrected glorified church in heaven for 7 years when there is not one scripture to back that up?

Which side relies on types and symbols which can be interpreted at the whims of the reader to make a case for a pre trib resurrection?

Which side ignores Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 that the resurrection is at Christ’s coming at the end not 7 years before the end?

Which side most often resorts to the tactic in debate when they have no answers to make statements like “ if you would just study your bibles you would see it “ or “I learned it from the Holy Spirit” or “if you would properly interpret the scripture you would see”?

There is no escape to heaven for seven years anywhere in scripture, if any of us make it to heaven before the tribulation it will be through death.

Yes, there is a war being waged between the forces of good and evil on many fronts, doctrine is but one of them.

 

[Straightshot]

"More about the Dispensationalist theology of the Darbytes that Staighshot promote"

You are howling at the moon RB

 

[Straightshot]

"Which side of this issue takes the passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and has to interpret the clear meaning that our gathering will not take place until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed right out of our bibles to make it agree with other fallacies?"


Your rendering of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is wrong .... the "gathering" [2 Thessalonians 2:1] is the Lord's call to immortalize His true ecclesia .... then the day of the Lord [the tribulation period] will begin

You are one who needs to listen to Paul's rebuttal of the false teachers of the day .... nothing has changed

False teachers abound today

Find any multi-toed giant demons yet?

 

[Riberra]

"More about the Dispensationalist theology of the Darbytes that Staighshot promote"

You are howling at the moon RB

Like the moon your light is very pale. You are unable to see that you have been fooled by Darby and his successors.

Darby was a dissident of the Anglican Church

In 1819 he graduated with highest honors as a Classical Gold Medalist from from Trinity College in Dublin. in 1825 Darby was ordained as an Anglican priest.

Darby's career as an Anglican was short lived. A short time after being ordained, Darby became outraged by what he perceived as religious laxity, theological error, and corruption in the Church of Ireland (and England). When convalescing from a broken leg in 1826, Darby began to study the Bible in-depth. This led Darby to discern distinct historical stages in God's actions toward humankind, something that set his theology apart from established church orthodoxy. An 1827 proclamation by his archbishop created further distance between Darby's viewpoints and those of his church. The archbishop demanded that all converts pledge an oath of loyalty to the English King in addition to the church. For Darby, the archbishop's edict threatened Protestant purity with the taint of secular politics. In 1834 Darby and other dissenters broke with the Church of Ireland to form what became known as the Brethren movement.

According to Darby, the Anglican Church was a troubled social institution. Refusing allegiance to the church, Darby and his fellow Brethren preached salvation by grace alone. They also urged believers to read and interpret the Bible for themselves. Darby later participated in the Powerscourt Prophecy Conferences, sponsored by the Scotch-Anglican dissenter Henry Drummond. Following these conferences, Darby became increasingly convinced that the second coming of Jesus was about to take place and that this would involve a succession of revelatory moments -- the Rapture, Tribulation, and Glorious Appearing.

Despite their collective resistance to the established church, the Brethren often disagreed with each other about specific biblical prophecies. Fierce disagreements were voiced concerning the exact sequence of End Times. One particularly acrimonious debate pitted Darby against B.W. Newton, pastor of the Plymouth Brethren Church.

At issue was whether the Rapture would, as Darby believed, be separated in time from the Glorious Appearing.

Heated disputes about matters such as this led Darby and his followers to withdraw from the fellowship in 1845, forming a loose network of so-called "Darbyite" congregations.[4] For the remainder of his life, the energetic Darby would remain an ardent proponent of dispensational premillenialism and his pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Darby's influence in American evangelical circles was solidified with Cyrus L. Scofield's publication of an annotated version of the King James Bible. Scofield's Bible cross-referenced the Old and New Testaments in ways that highlighted the prophetic interpretations of Darby.

The work's "innovative use of footnotes rather than a separate commentary intimately linked the biblical text with its prophetic interpretation. For many readers of Scofield's Bible, Darbyte interpretation became indistinguishable from the biblical text;

http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=558

 

[Straightshot]

Darby did not originate the Lord's pre-tribulation call from Margaret McDonald's phony vision RB

The truth of the matter is given in scripture and was revealed long before Darby

You have been hoodwinked by David McPherson

 

[Riberra]

Darby did not originate the Lord's pre-tribulation call from Margaret McDonald's phony/evil vision had in 1830 ,RB

The truth of the matter is given in scripture and was revealed long before Darby

-In 1819 Darby graduated with highest honors as a Classical Gold Medalist from Trinity College in Dublin.
-in 1825 Darby was ordained as an Anglican priest.
-In 1834 Darby and other dissenters broke with the Church of Ireland to form what became known as the Brethren movement.
Biography about Darby's was made by an international peer reviewed team
Here:
http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=558

Despite their collective resistance to the established church, the Brethren often disagreed with each other about specific biblical prophecies. Fierce disagreements were voiced concerning the exact sequence of End Times. One particularly acrimonious debate pitted Darby against B.W. Newton, pastor of the Plymouth Brethren Church.

At issue was whether the Rapture would, AS Darby BELIEVED, be separated in time from the Glorious Appearing.



Why are you still unable to provide Bible verses saying textually that the Church will be made immortal and taken to Heaven before the Tribulation ?
Why do you always skip or ignore the Bible verses saying that the changing into immortality of the believers and our caught up and gathering to meet Jesus in the air will happen at His Coming ?

 

[Postvieww]

"Which side of this issue takes the passage of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and has to interpret the clear meaning that our gathering will not take place until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed right out of our bibles to make it agree with other fallacies?"


Your rendering of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is wrong .... the "gathering" [2 Thessalonians 2:1] is the Lord's call to immortalize His true ecclesia .... then the day of the Lord [the tribulation period] will begin

You are one who needs to listen to Paul's rebuttal of the false teachers of the day .... nothing has changed

False teachers abound today

Find any multi-toed giant demons yet?

Straightshot said:

“Your rendering of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is wrong .... the "gathering" [2 Thessalonians 2:1] is the Lord's call to immortalize His true ecclesia .... then the day of the Lord [the tribulation period] will begin”

Let’s see if I am wrong.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Topic of chapter 2 the coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering unto him. Sounds like 1 Corin. 15:52 to me.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

They were troubled thinking the “day of Christ” verse 1 was at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul did warn us not to be deceived by those “false teachers” saying the coming of Christ could happen at any moment.

Except 2 things happen first, that day “the day of Christ” “the coming of our Lord” “our gathering together “will not happen. Those 2 things are the falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin being revealed. This passage is a clear rebuttal of the pretib fantasy.

“You are one who needs to listen to Paul's rebuttal of the false teachers of the day .... nothing has changed”

I believe maybe it is you who should listen.

“False teachers abound today”

They surely do.

“Find any multi-toed giant demons yet?”

You can find those multi-toed giants you jest about in your Bible, 2 Samuel 21:20, 1 Chronicles 20:6.

I notice you only made mention of one of the 10 points I raised, and only declared I was wrong, with your commentary, but offered no backing for your statement. Typical non response.

To the point of this thread the church will not escape earth during the tribulation.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Which side relies on types and symbols which can be interpreted at the whims of the reader to make a case for a pre trib resurrection?

To be fair, we're all interpreting in order to make a case, or, at the whims of our limited understanding. From God's perspective I think most of our attempts at interpreting the awesomeness of his truth probably do come across as rather whimsical. We're selfish. We're lazy. We're proud. We're nearly constantly in need of forgiveness on a daily basis. What God seems to appreciate most is our willingness to acknowledge just how weak our ability to interpret really is, because such an acknowledgement should naturally lead to us to a place where we're more likely to learn good interpretation.

I think there is room for the possibility that the post-tribbers are mistaken in their view and I think it is spiritually healthy to keep in mind at least a certain amount of doubt as to just how right we are about anything. Some areas of interpretation we can be more sure of than others. God's love is one area. I don't doubt that God loves us. It's one of those areas where it's very easy to confidently step forward and courageously and passionately declare, "I have no doubt whatsoever about this".

But, there are plenty of people in the world who do doubt God's love and almost all of them will say it's because of some violence in the world; some disaster, some sickness, some war, some organization persecuting one over the other etc. How could a loving God allow such things? Their interpretation of what love should be is quite different from how God actually expresses his love. Those are some of the more obvious examples, but it's the same for those who courageously declare they know that they know that they know that God loves us. Their interpretation of love usually has some, unspoken clauses; secret lines which they will not cross and this is usually proportionately true for those who are the most passionate in their professions of how confident and "settled in the heart" they are about God's love.

It's no wonder that Jesus said, "Those who love me will obey me and those who obey me show that they love me". As is usually the case with God, he's got a pretty different way of thinking and often the expression of his love does not come across in the way that we typically think of love. Jesus talked about a need to forsake our families for God. He talked about forsaking our material possessions, our respectability. He talked about a willingness to suffer for our faith; that following him would result in ridicule, being dragged off to court, being betrayed by those closest to us, being hated by the system, and even losing our lives. Abraham had pleeeenty of reason to shrug God off as being cruel and unreasonable. After all, Isaac had been promised to him and here God was, not only taking Isaac away, but asking Abraham himself to do the killing! So cruel! So unfair! God breaking his promises! God commanding parents to murder their own kids! The idea comes across more as torture than love; a puppet master who takes pleasure in pitting his puppets against one another to see how far he can push them before they break. I've heard it explained that way plenty of times.

And of course, Jesus was the ultimate example of this, begging for his life in the Garden but sadly resigning himself to do his master's bidding by going off to be tortured and killed etc...

But for those of us who are interested in courage, integrity, purpose and meaning beyond this physical life, we can see something more in Jesus' death. Far from being unloving, it was an expression of the greatest kind of love; to give our lives for the sake of others. Look how many people have been positively influenced because God did not spare Jesus from the cross. His willingness to lay his life down was more than just "doing it all on the cross so that we don't have to". These days such a sentiment is popular, but it has become a perversion of God's grace. Jesus never said, "I'm doing everything so that you don't have to". He said the exact opposite. His action was a testimony; a witness for the rest of us that we should be prepared to take up our own crosses, practice our own courage and lay our own lives down for a testimony to the world that there really is something more important than our physical lives and we don't mind laying them down to prove it.

The Great Tribulation is not a punishment and it is not God's wrath. Those two things are described as clearly distinct events in the Revelation. It will be one last, final testimony to the world to repent. It will be our job to lead the world to better understanding of God and repentance. We, the followers of the lamb "witthersoever he goeth". We who lay our lives down to over come the Beast, by the testimony of our word, which is the word of God (i.e. the testimony of Jesus).

Sure, the disappearance of millions of Christians suddenly could influence the world, too, but Jesus performed plenty of miracles in his day and plenty of people, the very eye witnesses explained them away or ignored them altogether. The miracle people in the last days will need to see isn't an overwhelming show of force from God, but rather the courage of his servants in the face of death.

This is what I see in the teachings of Jesus. This is not a message for Jews, or for Christians, or for gentiles or for any one specific people. It is a message for followers, whoever they may be. Keep following the lamb!

 

[Postvieww]

To be fair, we're all interpreting in order to make a case, or, at the whims of our limited understanding. From God's perspective I think most of our attempts at interpreting the awesomeness of his truth probably do come across as rather whimsical. We're selfish. We're lazy. We're proud. We're nearly constantly in need of forgiveness on a daily basis. What God seems to appreciate most is our willingness to acknowledge just how weak our ability to interpret really is, because such an acknowledgement should naturally lead to us to a place where we're more likely to learn good interpretation.

I think there is room for the possibility that the post-tribbers are mistaken in their view and I think it is spiritually healthy to keep in mind at least a certain amount of doubt as to just how right we are about anything. Some areas of interpretation we can be more sure of than others. God's love is one area. I don't doubt that God loves us. It's one of those areas where it's very easy to confidently step forward and courageously and passionately declare, "I have no doubt whatsoever about this".

But, there are plenty of people in the world who do doubt God's love and almost all of them will say it's because of some violence in the world; some disaster, some sickness, some war, some organization persecuting one over the other etc. How could a loving God allow such things? Their interpretation of what love should be is quite different from how God actually expresses his love. Those are some of the more obvious examples, but it's the same for those who courageously declare they know that they know that they know that God loves us. Their interpretation of love usually has some, unspoken clauses; secret lines which they will not cross and this is usually proportionately true for those who are the most passionate in their professions of how confident and "settled in the heart" they are about God's love.

It's no wonder that Jesus said, "Those who love me will obey me and those who obey me show that they love me". As is usually the case with God, he's got a pretty different way of thinking and often the expression of his love does not come across in the way that we typically think of love. Jesus talked about a need to forsake our families for God. He talked about forsaking our material possessions, our respectability. He talked about a willingness to suffer for our faith; that following him would result in ridicule, being dragged off to court, being betrayed by those closest to us, being hated by the system, and even losing our lives. Abraham had pleeeenty of reason to shrug God off as being cruel and unreasonable. After all, Isaac had been promised to him and here God was, not only taking Isaac away, but asking Abraham himself to do the killing! So cruel! So unfair! God breaking his promises! God commanding parents to murder their own kids! The idea comes across more as torture than love; a puppet master who takes pleasure in pitting his puppets against one another to see how far he can push them before they break. I've heard it explained that way plenty of times.

And of course, Jesus was the ultimate example of this, begging for his life in the Garden but sadly resigning himself to do his master's bidding by going off to be tortured and killed etc...

But for those of us who are interested in courage, integrity, purpose and meaning beyond this physical life, we can see something more in Jesus' death. Far from being unloving, it was an expression of the greatest kind of love; to give our lives for the sake of others. Look how many people have been positively influenced because God did not spare Jesus from the cross. His willingness to lay his life down was more than just "doing it all on the cross so that we don't have to". These days such a sentiment is popular, but it has become a perversion of God's grace. Jesus never said, "I'm doing everything so that you don't have to". He said the exact opposite. His action was a testimony; a witness for the rest of us that we should be prepared to take up our own crosses, practice our own courage and lay our own lives down for a testimony to the world that there really is something more important than our physical lives and we don't mind laying them down to prove it.

The Great Tribulation is not a punishment and it is not God's wrath. Those two things are described as clearly distinct events in the Revelation. It will be one last, final testimony to the world to repent. It will be our job to lead the world to better understanding of God and repentance. We, the followers of the lamb "witthersoever he goeth". We who lay our lives down to over come the Beast, by the testimony of our word, which is the word of God (i.e. the testimony of Jesus).

Sure, the disappearance of millions of Christians suddenly could influence the world, too, but Jesus performed plenty of miracles in his day and plenty of people, the very eye witnesses explained them away or ignored them altogether. The miracle people in the last days will need to see isn't an overwhelming show of force from God, but rather the courage of his servants in the face of death.

This is what I see in the teachings of Jesus. This is not a message for Jews, or for Christians, or for gentiles or for any one specific people. It is a message for followers, whoever they may be. Keep following the lamb!

There is much truth in your words and I receive them in the spirit in which you presented them. If I come off as confident in my position on the pre and post trib debate I plead guilty. I spent most of my Christian life on the pretrib side of this issue and do not take it lightly. I was saved in 1980 and just a few short years ago I felt God dealing with me on some of my long held beliefs. I believe I was wrong for many years on this and I do understand that many believe I am wrong now. I also believe God is not trying to fool us or hide truth from us on this issue. It was the wording of 2 Thess. 2 that I came face to face with and it became clear to me that what I had been taught, whole heartedly believed and had taught others did not fit that text. It was not a sermon I heard or a YouTube video that led me to where I am today it was a conversation with a co-worker about end time things and we were discussing 2 Thess 2 and something felt wrong with what I was saying. That is the short version. Much study and prayer later I am where I am. I am a show me person I admit I have little patience with those who simply declare they are right without an effort to show it in the scriptures. I do need to work on that. I try to always have a reason from scripture for what I say. The word of God is all we have to go by. It is truth and it is life. God bless you and your efforts for Him.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

There is much truth in your words and I receive them in the spirit in which you presented them. If I come off as confident in my position on the pre and post trib debate I plead guilty. I spent most of my Christian life on the pretrib side of this issue and do not take it lightly. I was saved in 1980 and just a few short years ago I felt God dealing with me on some of my long held beliefs. I believe I was wrong for many years on this and I do understand that many believe I am wrong now. I also believe God is not trying to fool us or hide truth from us on this issue. It was the wording of 2 Thess. 2 that I came face to face with and it became clear to me that what I had been taught, whole heartedly believed and had taught others did not fit that text. It was not a sermon I heard or a YouTube video that led me to where I am today it was a conversation with a co-worker about end time things and we were discussing 2 Thess 2 and something felt wrong with what I was saying. That is the short version. Much study and prayer later I am where I am. I am a show me person I admit I have little patience with those who simply declare they are right without an effort to show it in the scriptures. I do need to work on that. I try to always have a reason from scripture for what I say. The word of God is all we have to go by. It is truth and it is life. God bless you and your efforts for Him.

Hi postview. Thanks for sharing those thoughts. I appreciated your previous post and found the line which I quoted from it quite convenient for leading into some thoughts that I wanted to share. I think confidence is fine. I'm glad you eventually came around to what I think we both believe to be a more accurate interpretation of the scriptures (i.e. post-trib).

I also used to hold pre-trib view. I mostly just believed what others told me. Later, I became involved with a study group who had a very different understanding of the scriptures and when they laid it all out for me it made more sense to switch to a post-trib view. I look forward to reading more of your posts on this topic. Keep up the good work.