Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Endtime Survivors]

Your rendering of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is wrong .... the "gathering" [2 Thessalonians 2:1] is the Lord's call to immortalize His true ecclesia .... then the day of the Lord [the tribulation period] will begin

I'm not quite certain what straightshot's interpretation of this group of verses is, but the usual pre-trib interpretation is that the "he" who is "taken out of the way and then shall that wicked be revealed" is the Holy Spirit being removed from the planet, which means all the saints are raptured up as well. The idea is that the Holy Spirit is the one restraining the Beast/AC. The Holy Spirit's removal equates to the Rapture.

But this makes no sense in practical terms. If the Holy Spirit is gone from the world, then who are the saints overcoming the Beast by laying down their lives? Who are the great multitude who come out of Great Tribulation singing praises to God? How can the 144k follow the lamb "withersoever he goeth"? The saints are described as overcoming the Beast by the testimony of their word, which is the testimony of Jesus. Jesus' testimony (or words) are the Holy Spirit (See John 6:63).

The Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Earth if the saints are overcoming by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Douggg]

I'm not quite certain what straightshot's interpretation of this group of verses is, but the usual pre-trib interpretation is that the "he" who is "taken out of the way and then shall that wicked be revealed" is the Holy Spirit being removed from the planet, which means all the saints are raptured up as well. The idea is that the Holy Spirit is the one restraining the Beast/AC. The Holy Spirit's removal equates to the Rapture.

But this makes no sense in practical terms. If the Holy Spirit is gone from the world, then who are the saints overcoming the Beast by laying down their lives? Who are the great multitude who come out of Great Tribulation singing praises to God? How can the 144k follow the lamb "withersoever he goeth"? The saints are described as overcoming the Beast by the testimony of their word, which is the testimony of Jesus. Jesus' testimony (or words) are the Holy Spirit (See John 6:63).

The Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Earth if the saints are overcoming by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The "he" is Jesus - not the person of Jesus - but his body the church.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Jesus) who now letteth (Jesus) will let, until he (the body of Christ) be taken out of the way.

 

[Straightshot]

"I'm not quite certain what straightshot's interpretation of this group of verses is, but the usual pre-trib interpretation is that the "he" who is "taken out of the way and then shall that wicked be revealed" is the Holy Spirit being removed from the planet, which means all the saints are raptured up as well. The idea is that the Holy Spirit is the one restraining the Beast/AC. The Holy Spirit's removal equates to the Rapture"


The Lord's holy spirit is never absent and always present [Genesis 1:2; Revelation 5:6] in His universe

The "taking out of the way" is the Lord's action to limit His restraint against Satan during the coming tribulation ... the purpose: to open His judgment upon a world of humans totally void of His holy spirit, and at the same to let the devil rage upon the earth and hang himself at the hand of the Lord ... two birds with one stone

The idea that when His true ecclesia are made immortal His holy spirit will disappear from the earth or anywhere else is ridiculous

This idea is man made by ignorant people who have a very shallow understanding of the Lord's Word, grab scripture out of context, and speculate for the purpose of attempting to prove the Lord's pre-tribulation call

There are ample proofs of His pre-tribulation intent in scripture, but the one above is a sham

Just like the "taken" and "Left" story that has been used to support a pre-tribulation call

This particular experience has nothing to do with the event and has everything to do with Israel during the time of Jacob's trouble .... Matthew 24 is all about the nation of Israel in the coming tribulation .... and not today's "church"

If one does not understand that Israel as a nation is one thing and the "church" is another, the mixing of the two will create much error with regard to the rendering of the prophetic scriptures

Not all of Israel will turn and believe in their Messiah and King Jesus Christ during the period and these will be taken in the judgment

.... those that do will be spared and will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the days of the tribulation period

Understand that many teachers of professing Christianity have a very superficial and elementary view of the Lord's prophetic word, their presentation is not totally compatible, and it lacks much depth

So instead of studying themselves fully approved on a rather complex subject, they pick and fabricate false reasoning, and at the same time totally miss much scripture that locks in the Lord's intent to call His true ecclesia just before He pounds an unbelieving world of earth dwellers with his unprecedented wrath because they have refused to seek and believe the truth about Him​

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The "taking out of the way" is the Lord's action to limit His restraint against Satan during the coming tribulation ... the purpose: to open His judgment upon a world of humans totally void of His holy spirit, and at the same to let the devil rage upon the earth and hang himself at the hand of the Lord ... two birds with one stone

This is your response.

This is what I said.

the usual pre-trib interpretation is that the "he" who is "taken out of the way and then shall that wicked be revealed" is the Holy Spirit being removed from the planet

So, it appears that I did properly understand your interpretation which means my point still remains valid; how are people overcoming the beast by laying down their live without the Holy Spirit? How is a "great multitude so huge they can't be counted" coming out of the great tribulation singing praises to God without the Holy Spirit? How are the 144k following the lamb "withersoever he goeth" without the Holy Spirit?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The "he" is Jesus - not the person of Jesus - but his body the church.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Jesus) who now letteth (Jesus) will let, until he (the body of Christ) be taken out of the way.

It sounds forced, Douggg.

 

[Postvieww]

The "he" is Jesus - not the person of Jesus - but his body the church.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Jesus) who now letteth (Jesus) will let, until he (the body of Christ) be taken out of the way.

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Michael) who now letteth (Michael) will let, until he (Michael) be taken out of the way.

Do I not have the same scriptural right to insert Michael in the same way you have inserted Jesus?

No one is saying Jesus is not capable of doing it. I am saying there is no scriptural basis for saying He will do it. Yes, Jesus has all power, but sometimes He delegates that power to His children and or His angels.

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

If Michael can fight and prevail over a fallen angel in Dan 10:21 and cast satan and his angels out of heaven Rev 12:7-9 what is your scriptural reason he cannot restrain “the mystery if iniquity" as well?



The “he” body of Christ cannot be the one taken out of the way to reveal the man of sin because “our gathering” cannot take place until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

Your theory does not fit what the text says.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

It is the Lord who will stand aside and let the devil dance on an unbelieving world .... no doubt

The Lord is His holy spirit [not to be separated ] and the only One who can lift His on going restraint against Satan to allow for the revealing of the devil's lawless one .... his beast, Abaddon/Apollyon, in the human little horn of Daniel's visions

If Satan were not restrained he would have killed off all human existence long ago .... he hates the Lord, Israel, and the potential for human immortality

Michael does obviously work in tandem with the Lord in His restraining process and actually will fight to throw Satan and His angels to the earth at the beginning of the tribulation

The Lord is also seen in His restraining process against Satan's agents [angelic principalities] who stand behind human rulers of human governments [Daniel 10:4-21]

Michael is the archangel that is assigned to Israel and this powerful angel will be involved with casting Satan and his angels to the earth

His holy spirit also inhabits His true ecclesia, however this connection is not exclusive of His presence in His creation .... the Lord is omnipresent everywhere and never goes away

There will be humans who will turn to the Lord during the coming tribulation for their salvation .... the 144,000 of Israel the first .... then because of their witness others of Israel and some Gentiles of the nations will turn

The 144,000 mortals of Israel will be sealed for protection against the wiles of the tribulation .... most of the others who will turn to the Lord will be martyred of killed by the ferocity of the Lord's unprecedented unrelenting judgment upon the earth

Those who do turn will be resurrected at the end of the 2550 day tribulation including the Lord's two prophets

Some of the tribulation believers will actually survive as mortals .... and these will be gathered and will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the days of His judgment .... those who are found in unbelief will be rejected

 

[Riberra]

His holy spirit also inhabits His true ecclesia,

Can you define what His true ecclesia means ?

You seem to make a difference between what you call His true ecclesia versus the other 2 billion Christians is that right ?

Are you saying that His Holy Spirit does not inhabits the other 2 billion Christians believers in Jesus around the world ?

*Your guru Darby defined -the true ecclesia - by comparing the other Christians who were not agreeing with him as being part of the hypocrites who will be left behind.-

 

[Straightshot]

I would gladly answer your questions which I can most definitely do, but I do not like your Darby idea that you picked up from David McPherson .... and Darby is not my "guru"

So .... if you cannot refrain from talking the way you do toward me and at the same time are unwilling to consider my position on the matter at hand .... you and I are finished with any further dialogue

..... up to you

 

[Douggg]

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (Michael) who now letteth (Michael) will let, until he (Michael) be taken out of the way.

Do I not have the same scriptural right to insert Michael in the same way you have inserted Jesus?

No, because of Matthew 28:18, my favorite verse in the bible.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Cannot be said of Michael. So it is Jesus who is doing the letting and the future let.

The topic of the gathering unto Jesus, of the chapter, which is the rapture, taken. Taken out of the way. Paul is not even talking about Michael as the topic of the chapter.

Jesus is in control of everything. The mystery of iniquity has been allowed, Jesus is letting it happening. But the man of sin's act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God, is being prevented; until the gathering has taken place. Then Jesus will let the man of sin to reveal in himself in the manner described.

It doesn't necessarily mean a pre-70th week rapture, since the act by the Antichrist does not take place until the middle part of the week. But it does mean before the Antichrist commits the abomination of transgression, which he transgresses the Mt. Sinai covenant, the church will be gone.

Michael, the angel, as powerful as he is, acts as he is told; he doesn't make decisions about the destiny of the man.


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[Riberra]

I would gladly answer your questions which I can most definitely do, but I do not like your Darby idea that you picked up from David McPherson .... and Darby is not my "guru"

So .... if you cannot refrain from talking the way you do toward me and at the same time are unwilling to consider my position on the matter at hand .... you and I are finished with any further dialogue

..... up to you

His holy spirit also inhabits His true ecclesia,

Here the same questions without the mention of Darb...

-Can you define what His true ecclesia means ?

-You seem to make a difference between what you call His true ecclesia versus the other 2 billion Christians is that right ?

-Are you saying that His Holy Spirit does not inhabits the other 2 billion Christians believers in Jesus around the world ?

 

[Douggg]

It sounds forced, Douggg.

It is somewhat mysterious because a person has to know what Paul said about Christians being the body of Christ, 1Corinthians2:27. But the key is the topic of the chapter.

 

[Straightshot]

"Can you define what His true ecclesia means ?"


I should not have to explain this to you RB .... you should know

Do you really think that all who profess to be Christians are truly Christians?

If you do, you are very naive

 

[Riberra]

"Can you define what His true ecclesia means ?"


I should not have to explain this to you RB .... you should know

Do you really think that all who profess to be Christians are truly Christians?

If you do, you are very naive

I expected a response like that.
Of course not ,there is a lot of people who believe [because of false teachers/preachers] that becoming a Christian means that they have received a ticket to be removed (rapture) from the Earth to Heaven before the tribulation,this have become their blessed hope..I expect that those people will show their true face and will apostasy as soon as the hard times will begin because they will be so angry against God.[Exactly what Satan want]
Only those that will be able to endure in Faith until the Coming of Jesus (those who have not taken the mark,nor worship the beast ) will be part of His true ecclesia.

 

[Straightshot]

By By RB

 

[Riberra]

By By RB

I have not said that everybody from the pre-tribulation rapture Churches have become Christians because of the sermons based on the easy way out....but for a lot of people that is surely the reason.The Catholic Church for example have never preached the pre -trib or mid -trib rapture and they have 1.5 billion Christians.
You seem to believe that SAVED means being rapture before the tribulation ...if so you have been terribly deceived.

By By Straightshot.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

There will be humans who will turn to the Lord during the coming tribulation for their salvation .... the 144,000 of Israel the first .... then because of their witness others of Israel and some Gentiles of the nations will turn

The 144,000 mortals of Israel will be sealed for protection against the wiles of the tribulation .... most of the others who will turn to the Lord will be martyred of killed by the ferocity of the Lord's unprecedented unrelenting judgment upon the earth

I don't see how this interpretation is consistent with what you posted earlier. You said..."The "taking out of the way" is the Lord's action to limit His restraint against Satan during the coming tribulation ... the purpose: to open His judgment upon a world of humans totally void of His holy spirit, and at the same to let the devil rage upon the earth and hang himself at the hand of the Lord ... two birds with one stone"

How, in a world "totally void of his Holy Spirit", are all these people turning to Lord for their salvation?

Also, notice how you say that because of the witness of these 144k others will be inspired to turn to the Lord? Why is it the Jew's responsibility to suffer and die for their faith as a witness while all the Christians run away? That's not what Jesus taught at all.

Also, you say most of the people who turn to the Lord at this time will be "martyred or killed by the ferocity of the Lord's unprecedented unrelenting judgment upon the earth". You didn't call it wrath this time. Why not? Because it makes no sense to say that God directs his wrath at those who turn to him?

Your whole theory comes across as forced and inconsistent. And all so that you can feel better about running away from tribulation...

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It is somewhat mysterious because a person has to know what Paul said about Christians being the body of Christ, 1Corinthians2:27. But the key is the topic of the chapter.

It sounds forced because 1) You've arbitrarily concluded that any reference to Jesus must be interchangeable with followers of Jesus (i.e. the church) and 2) You've arbitrarily concluded that being "taken out of the way" equates to two raptures, the pre-trib rapture and the post trib-rapture (i.e. Jesus' reference to the sounding of a trumpet and his angels gathering his followers and Paul's reference to a "last" trumpet when Jesus' followers are gathered together to meet him in the air).

If there are not two raptures, then Paul's reference to Jesus' return at the last trumpet and Jesus' comments that he'd return at the sound of a trumpet "immediately after the tribulation of those days" still needs to be accounted for in your theory. So far you have not done that.

 

[Douggg]

It sounds forced because 1) You've arbitrarily concluded that any reference to Jesus must be interchangeable with followers of Jesus (i.e. the church) and

The name Jesus is not directly used in that particular verse. The word "he", everytime it is used in a sentence in the bible is not referring to Jesus.

2) You've arbitrarily concluded that being "taken out of the way" equates to two raptures, the pre-trib rapture and the post trib-rapture (i.e. Jesus' reference to the sounding of a trumpet and his angels gathering his followers and Paul's reference to a "last" trumpet when Jesus' followers are gathered together to meet him in the air).

"I" am concluding being taken out of the way equates to two raptures? No, I am not. There are not two raptures.

There is not a post trib rapture, provable because the Jews in Jerusalem escape through a split in the Mt. of Olives, not raptured. And to begin the messianic age, the gathering of the elect, is not a rapture. It is the gathering of the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel for the messianic age.

The rapture may happen pre-trib (pre-seventieth week) or it make not. The rapture must take place before the transgression of desolation takes place.

There are not two raptures.

If there are not two raptures, then Paul's reference to Jesus' return at the last trumpet and Jesus' comments that he'd return at the sound of a trumpet "immediately after the tribulation of those days" still needs to be accounted for in your theory. So far you have not done that.

Paul speaks about the rapture (implied) being at the last trump in that we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye. And that at the rapture, in 1thessalonians4 there will be a trump, the voice of the archangel.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews back to Israel, from the nations, to begin the messianic age. It is not the rapture; no one is being translated into incorruptible bodies. But if you are saying it is the rapture, then everyone would know almost to the exact day, 7 years from the confirming of the covenant, when the rapture will occur. So it is not a fit from that respect either of being the raptue.

 

[Postvieww]

No, because of Matthew 28:18, my favorite verse in the bible.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Cannot be said of Michael. So it is Jesus who is doing the letting and the future let.

The topic of the gathering unto Jesus, of the chapter, which is the rapture, taken. Taken out of the way. Paul is not even talking about Michael as the topic of the chapter.

Jesus is in control of everything. The mystery of iniquity has been allowed, Jesus is letting it happening. But the man of sin's act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God, is being prevented; until the gathering has taken place. Then Jesus will let the man of sin to reveal in himself in the manner described.

It doesn't necessarily mean a pre-70th week rapture, since the act by the Antichrist does not take place until the middle part of the week. But it does mean before the Antichrist commits the abomination of transgression, which he transgresses the Mt. Sinai covenant, the church will be gone.

Michael, the angel, as powerful as he is, acts as he is told; he doesn't make decisions about the destiny of the man.


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Doug said:
No, because of Matthew 28:18, my favorite verse in the bible.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

In my post I acknowledged that verse indirectly.

Cannot be said of Michael. So it is Jesus who is doing the letting and the future let.

True Michael does not have “all power” but he has all the power he needs to do whatever task given him. Your point does not negate the possibility Michael is the one referred to nor does it prove Jesus is the one referred to. Paul had no problem referring to Jesus by name; it is highly unlikely he would be cryptic about his Lord in this passage, or refer to Jesus as a “what” verse 6.

I have stated previously I cannot prove certain Michael is the one, but I have offered evidence and a logical argument from scripture it is a possibility.

The topic of the gathering unto Jesus, of the chapter, which is the rapture, taken. Taken out of the way. Paul is not even talking about Michael as the topic of the chapter.

Since we now agree the topic is the gathering in verse one, we should have no problem agreeing that that gathering will not take place until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed just as Paul said in verse 3.

Jesus is in control of everything.

Of course He has all power.

The mystery of iniquity has been allowed, Jesus is letting it happening.

You are inserting Jesus into this text without any justification other than saying He has all power. Makes no sense in the context of this passage. You arbitrarily insert Jesus’s name into a "what" and a "he' and the body of Christ into the other he, because it fits your narrative. You are going to have to acknowledge Jesus is taken out of the way which sounds ridiculous or the church is removed to allow the man of sin to be revealed which cannot be the case because Paul said the falling away and man of sin being revealed would come first. Please address this point.

But the man of sin's act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God, is being prevented; until the gathering has taken place.

The text does not say that! The gathering cannot take place until after he is revealed, verse 3.

Then Jesus will let the man of sin to reveal in himself in the manner described.

That scenario is not in this passage.

It doesn't necessarily mean a pre-70th week rapture, since the act by the Antichrist does not take place until the middle part of the week. But it does mean before the Antichrist commits the abomination of transgression, which he transgresses the Mt. Sinai covenant, the church will be gone.

Nowhere in this text does it say or imply “the church will be gone”.

Michael, the angel, as powerful as he is, acts as he is told;

Agreed.

he doesn't make decisions about the destiny of the man.

If he withholds at God’s command he is not making a decision about the destiny of man.