Escaping the Great Tribulation?

[Charlie24]

Sure there is. They just aren't referred to as "church." If you want, you can count how many times you can find references to Christ followers in Revelation 6-18, by context or by words such as "saints."

What are the people called who are saved DURING the tribulation?

 

[Straightshot]

"Matthew 24 and 25 and all
end times prophecies are to Israel only? So you think the Jewish disciples will be left to face Tribulation alone while the Gentiles fly away?"


My comment

The Lord's judgment is coming upon an entire world of unbelief .... including Israel for the same [Matthew 24:36-39]

And no body is going to fly away .... you sound like Arnold Murray with his serpent see doctrine [Murray is the "fly away" dude who invented the term taken out of context from Ezekiel 13 .... you need to learn what this application really means]

Once the tribulation of His wrath no body on the earth is going anywhere .... all will be trapped on the planet to experience His unprecedented judgments which will last for 2550 days non-stop

Billions of human will be killed in unbelief and their spirits will end up here .... few of the 7 billion on the earth will survive

I you find yourself in this wake of destruction you will go in as an unbeliever .... which you apparently want to do and your chances of survival will be slim and next to none

And it is the Lord who will be slamming His judgments upon you

He has said this [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 3:10] .... and means what He says .... and you are refuting Him outright

And His response to you is this [Revelation 3: 15-20] .... so when you get there you had better repent of you refusal to believe what He says

If not, your spirit will end up here [Revelation 20:11-15]

Matthew 24 and Luke 21:20 is a focus upon Israel at the time of the end .... anyone who reads can see this truth by description and by locations given

He is going to specifically pressure a remnant part of Israel for turning to Him and this is going to happen [Ezekiel 33-44; Zechariah 13:8-9] .... but most of the Gentiles like yourself will not .... and these are going down hard [Micah 5:10-15]

So I have to say that you don't know what you are talking about and are severely lacking knowledge as a believer .... get serious about your fate and study yourself approved .... it is all up to you

Stop listening to the false teachers that you are following and start listening to Lord .... He is capable of leading you into all truth, but you must seek Him

If you have reasonable questions I may answer you .... but don't give me the "fly away" junk .... this is serious business and it is a matter of life, or death for you

 

[Douggg]

Dougg said:

Why was John told to come up hither? John is experiencing what would be the resurrection and rapture when it takes place. John is in heaven before the great tribulation take place.

Too many try to read way too much into this passage. The voice he heard told him to come up hither so he could be shown the things which must be hereafter, Revelation 4:1. Of course he was in heaven before the tribulation, it hasn’t happened yet, but he would see it in the Revelation given to him. There is absolutely nothing in the text to make this a resurrection experience. Where in scripture do we find a temporary changing into immortality and then back to mortal? That theory will not work.

John was already in the spirit in Revelation 1.

Revelation 1:10 says he was in the spirit and Revelation 4:2 says “immediately I was in the spirit”, implying this happened again to him.

Revelation 4:1 is not necessary unless it is identifying the resurrection/rapture taking place before the events of the great tribulation.

Total speculation built on the need to get the church into heaven early in Revelation. Not the case.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

This passage is not a rapture of the church or a type of one. It is just what it says, John was in the spirit, taken to heaven to be shown what he would write down as our book of Revelation. Nothing more can or should be read into this passage.

Yes, it's the rapture... heaven opens, voice like a trumpet, come up hither, suddenly in heaven.... rapture all over that passage.... Jesus's voice, "I am going to show you the things that must be hereafter" - hereafter the rapture.

 

[Luke17:37]

What are the people called who are saved DURING the tribulation?

They are called the same things as the ones who are already saved when the Tribulation begins. Christians. Disciples of Jesus. Elect. Saints...

There's no promise of a pre-tribulation rapture. The rapture (gathering) won't happen until after the resurrection, and the first resurrection includes the people beheaded in Tribulation for their relationship with Christ.

Many are going to be deceived, Charlie, and fall away from the faith before Jesus comes because He doesn't do things how they expect and hope (e.g., Luke 18:7-8). I hope you won't.

 

[miknik5]

What are the people called who are saved DURING the tribulation?

Those who did not love their lives to the death but held to the testimony of JESUS

Servants with us..

 

[Charlie24]

They are called the same things as the ones who are already saved when the Tribulation begins. Christians. Disciples of Jesus. Elect. Saints...

There's no promise of a pre-tribulation rapture. The rapture (gathering) won't happen until after the resurrection, and the first resurrection includes the people beheaded in Tribulation for their relationship with Christ.

Many are going to be deceived, Charlie, and fall away from the faith before Jesus comes because He doesn't do things how they expect and hope (e.g., Luke 18:7-8). I hope you won't.

That's what you have been taught, and it's a lie.

I would suggest you take the advice from Staightshot, he's telling you the truth!

 

[Luke17:37]

That's what you have been taught, and it's a lie.

I would suggest you take the advice from Staightshot, he's telling you the truth!

No person taught me this. In fact, all I heard for years is what you and Straightshot teach. I learned it reading the Bible while looking for evidence of pre-Tribulation rapture.

When you examine pre/post Trib in light of 2 Timothy 4:3-4, which sounds like ear tickling to you?

Post-Trib - I might die for my faith?
Pre-Trib - At any moment, God could rescue me from the earth without dying (before the Tribulation), but converts can expect to die for their faith in the Tribulation?

 

[Straightshot]

"Yes, it's the rapture... heaven opens, voice like a trumpet, come up hither, suddenly in heaven.... rapture all over that passage.... Jesus's voice, "I am going to show you the things that must be hereafter" - hereafter the rapture."


Doug you should know better .... the "rapture" did not happen back in the first century in John's day

The Lord does have a voice that sounds like a musical trumpet [like the voice of an archangel]

What John heard was the Lord sounding like a trumpet .... the first trumpet for the "church"

There was no "rapture" of the church at this encounter, but the Lord's message to the Lord's first formal message to the church was given

The last trumpet for the "church" has not yet occurred and is still pending [1 Corinthians 15:51-52]

And the things "hereafter" were the things to come .... when? .... after the church is called by the Lord to immortality .... this has not happened yet

And the "things hereafter" have not yet happened, but will just after the Lord's call for His true ecclesia .... here are the things .... the tribulation period and beyond

This is what the book of Revelation is all about .... John is shown the future in advance [Revelation 4:1]

First he is shown His true immortal ecclesia in heaven [Revelation 4; 5]

Then he is shown the opening of the portents of the 7 seals of the tribulation period [Revelation 6]

Then He is shown the sealing of the 144000 mortals of Israel upon the earth just before the tribulation begins[7:1-8]

Then he is shown the Lord's true ecclesia again in heaven just before the tribulation begins [Revelation 7:9-17]

And then the events of the tribulation begin in chapter 8 and run through chapter 19

Again this is evidence that the Lord's pre-tribulation call for His true ecclesia is truth

 

[miknik5]

Tarry until HE comes.
That's our work.
And let us not be found beating the servants.

 

[miknik5]

Heres another reminder to those whose HOPE is in HIM:


I know my redeemer lives. And though my flesh may wear away still and even in my flesh my eyes shall see HIM standing upon the earth in the last days (paraphrased)

 

[Straightshot]

"At any moment, God could rescue me from the earth without dying (before the Tribulation), but converts will die for their faith in the Tribulation?"


This is the truth about the matter .... no doubt

Stick to it and then build upon it by serious study of all of the related scriptures .... there are many

Here are some other building blocks to know:

The Lord is not finished with Israel .... replacement theology is false

The 70 weeks of years prophecy decreed for Israel in Daniel 9 has been fulfilled through the 69th week [at the Lord's cutting off and rejection by Israel] .... the 70th week of 2520 days is still pending as we speak .... this time frame is the same as the time of Jacob's [Israel's trouble] .... the same as the coming tribulation of the Lord's wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

The prophetic visions are all silent with regard for events upon the earth during the Lord's dispensation of grace between the 69th and 70th weeks .... and this period of silence is still on going as we speak

The unfulfilled portion of prophecy is still to come during the 70th week decreed

Both the preteristic and post-tribulation views are false for many many reasons

 

[Straightshot]

"Tarry until HE comes.
That's our work."

This must be done

"And let us not be found beating the servants."


And the preacher and teacher of the Lord's Word must convey truth to those who will listen

Many false expounders have gone out with the intent to deceive [Matthew 24:4-5; 2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Timothy 3:1-7; 2 Timothy 4:1-4; 2 Peter 1:1-16; 2 Peter 2:1-22; 2 Peter 3:2-9; Jude 1:23]

 

[miknik5]

"At any moment, God could rescue me from the earth without dying (before the Tribulation), but converts will die for their faith in the Tribulation?"


This is the truth about the matter .... no doubt

Stick to it and then build upon it by serious study of all of the related scriptures .... there are many

Here are some other building blocks to know:

The Lord is not finished with Israel .... replacement theology is false

The 70 weeks of years prophecy decreed for Israel in Daniel 9 has been fulfilled through the 69th week [at the Lord's cutting off and rejection by Israel] .... the 7th week of 2520 days is still pending as we speak .... this time frame is the same as the time of Jacob's [Israel's trouble] .... the same as the coming tribulation of the Lord's wrath and judgment upon an unbelieving world

The prophetic visions are all silent with regard for the Lord's dispensation of gace between the 69th and 70th weeks .... and this period of silence is still on going as we speak

Both the preteristic and post-tribulation views are false for many many reasons

Jacob is Jacob
Israel is Israel
And even as Jacob was called and renamed Israel
That Israel is physical and is not THE ISRAEL which God was ever and always pointing to in which all who belong to that ISRAEL are a priestly people before God and have an inheritance in the Lord

And that is the WHOLE HOUSE of GOD with ONE SON over the WHOLE HOUSE of GOD

 

[miknik5]

no replacement theology

The Son of God simply took back what belonged to HIM from the beginning

"Melchizadek" a shadow and figure of Christ was before any earthly priesthood

 

[Straightshot]

Your post above reflects replacement theology .... the Lord's nation of Israel is one thing .... His church of both a few of Israel and mostly Gentiles is another .... not the same

Until you get this truth, you are going to struggle with His more sure word of prophecy and your understanding of end time events .... and even other things

 

[miknik5]

There is not a clean cut
There isn't a rapture of

Your post above reflects replacement theology .... the Lord's nation of Israel is one thing .... His church of both a few of Israel and mostly Gentiles is another .... not the same

Until you get this truth, you are going to struggle with His more sure word of prophecy and your understanding of end time events .... and even other things

no replacement

Simply taking back what had been scattered and gathering up in one bringing the two (those who had the word and promises of God and those who didn't) together in ONE

The Son alone as the One and Only Bridegroon of the covenant will present back to Hs Father....His Bride




As to a High Priest before GOD?

There's only ONE
And GOD will not allow any man to enter in by any other way but the "TRUE VEIL"

That goes for both the Jew ( who had the word and promises of GOD and the Gentile (who didn't)

It is through faith in Christ alone that the Jew and the gentile are co heirs in Christ and all the word and promises if GOD found in Christ Jesus

For the very testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy

 

[miknik5]

Every word of scripture spoken in a hidden and veiled sense spoke of and pointed to Christ
Every priest
Every prophet
Every Judge
Ever King
Was a shadow of Christ

God who knows our limited humanity knows we ever and always need signs and representations and images and He graciously provided these lower visible things to point us to the Higher and Hidden Truths all found in HIS SON

God from the abundance of His grace provided us with sign upon sign upon sign rearing us up to know Him so that at the fullness of time when the BODY He had prepared from before the world ever was would come forth to do His Will. We would look back and bring to remembrance all along GOD spoke of HIS SON

THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY

 

[miknik5]

there is no divided ministry.
There is the lamb of God which is the ministry of reconciliation NOW

and then after the year of the Lords favor is complete there is the lion of the tribe of Judah


It is really important to not go outside the first ministry but to point all to the Lamb.

Both the Jew and the gentile

 

[Straightshot]

"no replacement"


Your view is exactly that

You are mixing His "church" with His nation of Israel

He does not .... from Genesis to Revelation

He has a purpose for doing this

The Bible is a book about Israel .... 90% of the volume .... the "church" is a product of His grace toward the Gentile nations .... grafted into the Hebrew root

You have been taught to claim the promises to Israel for your own religious affiliation, and this is very evident

The problem .... there are many attached and false dogmas that come with the package .... some of which can be detrimental toward you .... so be aware

 

[miknik5]

"no replacement"


Your view is exactly that

You are mixing His "church" with His nation of Israel

He does not .... from Genesis to Revelation

He has a purpose for doing this

The Bible is a book about Israel .... 90% of the volume .... the "church" is a product of His grace toward the Gentile nations .... grafted into the Hebrew root

You have been taught to claim the promises to Israel for your own religious affiliation, and this is very evident

The problem .... there are many attached and false dogmas that come with the package .... some of which can be detrimental toward you .... so be aware

I haven't been taught by anyone

The work of His First Chosen Israel was to be a light to all nations
They were supposed to keep themselves separate from the nations amongst them. They were supposed to declare the wonders of God How He took them by a strong arm and took them out of "egypt" and brought them into "Israel"

They were told that they were not to treat an alien as an alien. That they too were once aliens but God heard their cry of oppression

They were told that any alien who wished to celebrate the Passover needed to be circumcised

And they were supposed to keep themselves separate so as to be a light to all nations teaching the wonders of God

But instead they adopted the customs of the nations around them and God's name was misrepresented

GOD simply took back the work by sending The Light which lighteth all men and said He is doing all things for His Names Sake so as to declare His Name as Holy amongst ALL NATIONS

and do not forget The promise was to Abraham that he would be a father to many nations and that the promise would be reckoned through his promised and named son, Isaac

But it was never really about Isaac to begin with other than to show that God makes a further distinction by promising and putting to name the SEED through whom HIS declared promise would come from the beginning to His first Love Israel

What they did not receive, the Gentiles did

But GOD has not forsaken HIS FIRST love Israel.

He will reopen their eyes and they will see and believe

Their hardening was not only to stir them to jealousy of a people who were not His people but it was so as to bring the Gentiles in

When the fullness of the Gentiles are complete than the natural branches will be grafted in by faith in the one and only Son of God


The TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD WHOM GOD ALL ALONG SPOKE OF AND POINTED TO THROUGHOUT HIS WORD WHICH CAME TO HIS FIRST CHOSEN