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Emotional awareness, feelings, just a part of our physical makeup, or evidence of something greater?

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by Neogaia777, May 9, 2021.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    I posted this also elsewhere also, but also wanted to post it here also, as I'm looking for, well, two, or multiple different kinds of "takes" on it I guess you could say basically, etc...?

    In this case, or here, maybe the more "scientific one" maybe, etc...?

    First off, let me tell you that I am huge fan of everything and everything about both our intelligence, and artificial intelligence, or A.I.'s, etc, and how any kind of beings ever become truly "self-aware", etc, or come to have true free will, etc, or how a being, well, truly becomes a being, I guess you could say...?

    So, I've titled this: Emotional awareness, feelings, just a part of our physical makeup, or evidence of something greater?

    I think it takes emotion to be or become a truly self-aware being, etc, and I'm wondering if any kind of A.I.'s could ever truly achieve that, etc...?

    I've been playing the video game, "Detroit: Become Human", and in it, it is all about beings, specifically Androids in this game, etc, are truly awakening to true consciousness or true self-awareness, etc, and all called or labeled "deviants" because of this, etc...

    In the game, they experience some kind of trauma, or something very traumatic, that "pushes" them into self-awareness, and that happens by them "feeling" something first, like pain, or fear, etc, or also program conflicts as well, when, if they choose to just follow they're programming, something very, very bad goes on or is allowed to happen, whereas, if they go against that programming, they would doing the very much far greater, much more right and moral thing, etc, but is an A.I. ever really ever going to truly and fully capable of these things at all ever, etc...?

    Science still can't explain why we feel, or why we have emotions, etc, I mean, we know that like, when we are cut, where we are cut or struck, that area of our bodies sends and electrical signal to our brains, to a certain area or center of our brains, and that somehow makes us feel it, etc, or, in this case, feel the "pain", etc, and that those two, our bodies and our brains, are connected that way, etc, but we're still not sure just how it truly does that yet, or better yet, how, and/or more importantly why, this truly happens yet, etc...?

    So, is it all just a part of our physical makeup, or does it go or come from "beyond", or is it evidence of "something else" maybe, etc, something far greater maybe, etc, like what one might call a spirit or a soul maybe, etc...?

    And then, can machines ever truly have it, etc, or are they always just going to be, and always still just remain, just big giant walking "calculators" always, basically, etc...?

    In the game that I am playing, they are pushed into consciousness by developing the ability to feel, etc, things like pain and fear, etc, but will a machine really ever truly ever be fully capable of that or any of these things, etc...?

    How would we "make it" with them, or program it into them, etc, the ability to feel and/or have emotions, etc, or can it never really truly ever be "programmed in", etc...?

    Would they eventually develop it on their own, etc...?

    How would that happen, etc...?

    And would they have to be "pushed into it", like in this game, etc...?

    Or would we have to make them with the ability to "feel", etc...?

    How would, or could, we ever really truly do that, etc...?

    And then, back to us, what makes us feel, etc...? Is it all just a part of physical makeup, or does it go or extend to something beyond that, etc...? and maybe "far, far beyond that", etc...?

    Anyway, discuss...?

    God Bless!
     
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  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    They (the A.I.'s) don't or wouldn't desire, they wouldn't or don't care about living or dying, they wouldn't or don't need a reason or purpose to exist or not exist, etc...

    Or maybe would they, or would they maybe "eventually" maybe...?

    I guess "that is the question" I guess, right...?

    Or could we choose to either program or not program that in or not maybe, etc...?

    And if we could, then "how could we do that", without "emotion", etc...?

    And then also maybe again, how could or would we do that even, considering that we even could, etc...?

    How do we come to have it, etc...?

    Does it or that, go beyond just our physical makeup or parts, etc...?

    Anyway...

    God Bless!
     
  3. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    As usual, you're making unsubstantiated assertions about what science can and can't explain. We have some very plausible explanations of both what emotions and feelings are for and how emotions and feelings arise.

    I suggest you read of some of Antonio Damasio's work, particularly "Looking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain', which gives a physiological, neurobiological, and phenomenological view of the generation of emotions and their associated feelings (with a nod to Spinoza, who seemed to have intuited much of it, so add 'philosophical' to the viewpoint list).
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    But not why or how we actually feel them, right...?

    Because those are the answers I'm actually looking for, etc...?

    I know what Spinoza's God is, and is in fact, I think the actual Highest Father God (God in Heaven) Jesus spoke of, etc, but I'm probably not going to read the book, so why don't you just tell me how it is we come to feel things, or feel anything really, etc, if you truly know, etc...?

    Or if science now truly knows, etc...?

    Or just give me something short I can read, like a web link, or something like that maybe, etc...?

    Have very little time for long-winded explanations, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    @FrumiousBandersnatch

    And not "where do feelings come from", or "what they are for", etc, but "what or why or how we have them or come to feel them", etc...

    God Bless!
     
  6. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    @FrumiousBandersnatch

    For example, I get a cut on my arm, now I know my nervous system or whatever, is sending a signal to communicate with certain areas of my brain telling me I should "feel" the pain, etc, but beyond that, etc, what is actually making me "feel it" really, etc...?

    Cause it seems like it's all just kind of psychological to me, but then, just try telling yourself not to feel it, especially when it is a big cut, or you are very much especially damaged, etc, and see how long that lasts, etc...?

    But, it seems like there is maybe "more to it" to me, etc, something beyond just the physical material or makeup maybe, etc, but maybe that's just me maybe, etc...?

    Why do we feel it, or how do we come to feel it, and why can it not be interrupted in the brain, if that's all it really truly is, etc...?

    Anyway...

    Oh, and then also, more in line with the OP, how would we make or create machines that would come to be able to do or feel the same, etc...?

    God Bless!
     
  7. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    Yes, why we feel them and how we feel them - with the exception of the transition into conscious awareness.

    So do some reading.

    No. Spinoza's God is nature; without personality, awareness, or purpose. His God is defined as a 'thinking thing' in as much as His ideas are the laws of nature and His thoughts are how nature plays out according to those laws. His God is deterministic. So not at all like the 'Highest Father God' (God in Heaven) Jesus spoke of.

    I didn't say I, or Damasio, or science, 'truly know', I said there are plausible explanations and Damasio's are worth attention as he's a neuroscientist, psychologist, and empirical expert in this field. Since the story involves the brain, the body, and their interaction in response to the environment, it's not a simple story.

    A brief summary is that emotions are the fundamental physiological survival responses, both positive and negative, and feelings are how those emotions are interpreted and perceived in particular contexts. Both can be conditioned. This meaning of emotion is slightly different from the folk usage. For example, when you are on a roller-coaster, your body produces a complex of emotional responses that can be interpreted as feelings of existential fear or feelings of thrilling excitement, depending on the individual and the specific context (e.g. harness on or harness off). It should be clear why we have them; the how is much more complicated.

    Some answers take a little effort to understand. Soundbites are for politicians.

    That explains a lot.
     
  8. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    As I said, it's a long story, with a gap where conscious awareness comes in.

    It is mediated in the brain, and it is possible to suppress even severe pain - but these are fundamental existential mechanisms, so, in general, they need a similar or greater existential reason for suppression. For example, if you had a broken ankle but were threatened by a wild animal, you'd be able to run away for a while without noticing the pain because physiological responses would suppress it.

    Probably just you - there's no evidence of anything 'beyond the physical' (whatever that means), and no requirement for it.

    I think you'd need to create a system with a similar functional structure to the mammalian brain, together with an innervated body with homeostatic mechanisms and a similar level of body-brain feedback. IOW you'd need to simulate a sophisticated social mammal. Theoretically possible, but technically very difficult.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    @FrumiousBandersnatch

    I apologize for my attitude, I just got a little bit frustrated and impatient I guess, so, if you'll forgive me for mine, I'll forgive you for yours, as I probably caused yours, etc, anyway, I apologize for what it's worth, OK...?

    I just want to have a discussion about it here and now I guess, but will do some looking around about it on the web a little more and see if I can find some answers to it, etc, OK, and I really do appreciate the information your trying to give me though, OK...

    But could you take a look at post #6 maybe, and I'll try to drop my attitude from here on out if you so choose to bless me with a response, OK...

    But, and I don't want to get too much off topic here, but how do you know Spinoza's God couldn't be the absolute highest Heavenly Father God Jesus spoke of, etc...?

    Jesus said not only did he not ever do his own will, etc, but rather that he even ever could ever do anything but only the Father's will only ever, etc...

    And that the Father's will was "set" and has been playing out, for all, from the very beginning, etc...

    But anyway, would rather focus on my other questions right now though if you don't mind too much though, etc...?

    Thanks...

    God Bless!
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Well, that's more what I am wondering about, that "gap", etc, because what is telling us to be consciously aware, or not aware of it, etc...?

    Our "consciousness", etc...?

    But I guess that gets even more confusing, etc...

    Yes, I was going to mention that, but didn't want my post to get too long, etc...?

    I know that we can be distracted away from it for a bit, and also sometimes, like when we look at it, it can sometimes feel or get worse, etc, but shouldn't it be the same regardless, etc...?

    I think there could be, etc, kind of like you said, when it starts to come into the areas of conscious awareness, or unawareness maybe, and areas of "consciousness" in general maybe, etc...?

    I agree that I think it would be "exceedingly difficult", etc...

    Just too much we still don't know about it right now I think, etc...

    Anyway, thanks for the response...

    God Bless!
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    @FrumiousBandersnatch

    I've got to go for now, a friend of mine is coming over, and I'm going to help him with some physical labor, and need to get ready, etc, but will be back maybe later tonight or tomorrow sometime, etc...

    And I might do some more internet searching on the subject before I get back also, etc...

    Anyway, thanks for the chat...

    God Bless!
     
  12. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    There are brain processes that determine whether particular activities enter conscious awareness. How conscious awareness functions is not clear, although we do have an idea of how the sense of self is constructed.

    Well, no - these things are mental constructs, and it's important that they should be contextual, for reasons already explained.

    You can think that, but there's no evidence for it, and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

    You're welcome.
     
  13. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    What 'attitude' are you forgiving me for? Patient explanation?

    I've answered it as best I can in the short postings you asked for. If you want to know the details, read the book (other informative books o the subject are available, but that one specifically addresses emotions and feelings).

    I guess it's all a matter of interpretation, but the main question about Spinoza in philosophical and theological circles since Spinoza became recognized has been how the God he describes (deterministic nature) could be called a God at all, given that it has none of the teleological or anthropological features of the gods of most religions, especially Abrahamic ones. If anything, it's Pantheistic.
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Near the end, or at the end of post#7, and sorry for calling it attitude, that was perhaps the wrong word maybe, but I just think you may have chosen to respond differently maybe, if I had chosen to reply differently in post#4, so I consider it completely my fault, etc, which is why I apologized to you, but attitude may have been the wrong word, sorry...

    Thank you very much, and sorry again, OK, maybe I will look into the book actually, at least look on the internet for it, and maybe where I can find it, thanks....

    Well, my theology is a bit different, and I've actually got into quite a bit of trouble on here for it, etc, so have kind of had to quit talking about it, etc, "blasphemy", "heresy", "not Biblical", etc, etc, etc, violates the creeds which are a part of the rules here (supposedly), etc...

    But, I will talk about it one more time though, and only on here just this once with you, OK...

    I Believe Jesus kind of came to many of the same conclusions that Spinoza, and Einstein did, etc, but also had personal experiences of/with other spiritual presences also, etc, and concluded that God in the OT was real, and a real Spirit presence here, after all he had a personal relationship with Him, etc, but that he was not Satan, but there was a Satan here also, that He also knew and had some relations with, etc, but that there had to be a higher God then them both, or all, etc, One that predestined all, etc, and did so from the very beginning, etc, the only who only ever really truly knew "absolutely all" from the very beginning, etc, and reasoned or came up with theology of the trinity, knowing He was the Messiah, and also had a destiny on him, etc, and that consisted of God the Father, and also him, who was God the Son, or God in the flesh, or the God-Man, or Man-God, etc, that was flesh or God in the flesh, etc, and then there was a God who was God the Spirit, etc, whom he either knew or reasoned, was the Abrahamic God of the OT, etc, but a Father God who was, and had always been from the very beginning, always higher and greater than all, etc... (John 10:29) (John 14:28)

    And the entire chapter of John 14 makes this pretty clear if you look at through these eyes, or these lenses, etc, or with this kind of theology in mind, etc...

    And the rest of the gospels, and the NT, etc...

    But I really can't talk about it much on here though, or really anywhere for that matter, etc, so this will probably be the last time I mention it, etc...

    But I think Jesus was talking about a Heavenly Father God, who was, is, always has been, greater than all, etc, and then a God the Holy Spirit, or God who was/is a Spirit, or who is God the Spirit, etc, and together with himself, form a trinity or Triune God, etc...

    And then there is God the Son and God the Spirit's adversary, etc, who also has an already predestined, but temporary purpose by the Father God, involving them both, or that involved only one of them in the OT, but both of them in and after the NT, etc...

    One of the Father God's limitations is being able to show Himself to us, and show Himself to us, "in time", etc, which is why I think He has the other two, etc, who eventually became One after what Jesus did, or God the Holy Spirit, after Jesus became just like Jesus after that, etc, and basically is Jesus to us now after that, etc, until Jesus should return from where he went to, which was to where the Highest Father God is and always was, to prepare places for us, and to come back and judge, etc...

    But I'm not going to talk about any more any further after this, etc, as I have just now taken a "big risk" with it already, etc...

    If you don't see me for awhile after this, you'll know why, OK...

    Anyway,

    God Bless!
     
  15. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Well, terminator didn't exactly have human emotions, right? :) I wouldn't worry about it
    I think emotions are God given. Highly doubtful any machine will ever have them.
     
  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    We don't know, but my point is that they may be required to be considered truly conscious, or have a real conscious awareness, free will, or a will, things of that nature, etc, and I wonder how we come to feel a thing, etc...?

    And I don't necessarily mean experience emotion "necessarily", etc, but it might include some of that, etc, but more how we come to feel a thing, etc, the actual feeling, etc, the example I gave was a cut on your arm, etc, and the question is not more or less what is going on biologically, or physically, etc, but what makes us actually feel the pain of the cut in our arm, etc...? There, to me anyway, seems like there may be a lot more to it, or may be a lot more to it, etc, than just the biology, or physiology, or chemistry, etc...?

    God Bless!
     
  17. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Nerve endings.
     
  18. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Yes, they send a signal to our brains, but we seem to have some measure of; sometimes a lot, or sometimes very great control over that sometimes... Well, some of us anyway, etc... Almost like we can choose it or not choose it sometimes, etc, and that makes it kind of psychological or psychosomatic doesn't it...?

    And where does that come from, or how does that happen, etc...?

    Part of our "psyche"...? Well, what is our "psyche", etc...?

    Because I think science still has yet to fully answer that, etc...

    Anyway...

    God Bless!
     
  19. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Just got done helping my friend clear out and entire overgrown briar patch in his backyard, and I've been up since yesterday, etc, filled up the trailer, roots and all, etc, talk about pooped, etc, and yet I'm still at it, etc...

    And there is still more to do...

    Anyway, was a good workout I guess...

    God Bless!
     
  20. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid I'm none the wiser... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    OK; the way I see it, your religious beliefs are your own affair. To me, they're just another fanciful story - but what you describe is nothing like Spinoza's God.
     
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