Continuing research into the possibility of the reality of the Exodus, and current data/conclusions.

[Neogaia777]

This is what I have so far.

This paper below shows what I now believe to be the correct number of Israelites in the exodus from Egypt, etc. And instead of 2 million, it shows, and proves in my opinion, that the number was closer to 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc.

I could only read all of it by creating an account, and to download it costs money, but it is more than well worth creating an account, and/or doing so in my opinion, etc.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1585502?seq=1

I never believed those numbers of the amount of people in the exodus from Egypt, as they created a lot of logic problems for me, but I now believe this paper is accurate, and shows the true numbers, etc, which is about 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc. You'll need to get a look at the whole paper to know how they reached this conclusion, etc, which will require you to at least make an account, etc, but it is well worth it in my view, etc.

This solves the problems of around 2/3 of the Egyptian population being all of the sudden gone, or disappearing, and of the building projects still going on afterwards, and a whole host of other logic problems or issues, etc, a lot of which the paper I linked gets into, or explains thoroughly, or a lot of, etc. And it partially solves the problem of not finding many Israelite dead in the Sinai wilderness today also, etc. And there are also other possible ideas/theories as to why we might not find any Israelite dead at all, etc, which I will name or list for you or post for you if you really want me to, etc.

Pinning down the exact dates of the Exodus from Egypt, and who was Pharaoh at the time is difficult, and there are many different views or possibilities, and the most challenging thing about them is, a lot of them are giving several or multiple different possibilities, and are adding that each one has pretty much equal support both biblically and scientifically and archaeologically, etc. The best I could provide you with right now is maybe a possible range of dates maybe, and of possible different Pharoahs for those time periods, etc.

Why we find no animal remains? The Israelites seem to have lost the animals they took with them from Egypt shortly after the Red Sea, etc, exactly why that is is anyone's guess, but they didn't seem to have them anymore shorty after the Red Sea, when they began quickly complaining that they were going to die of starvation without any food, and that the Bible records is when God started feeding them with heavenly mana supernaturally, etc.

And as mentioned earlier, why not any other archaeological evidence of campsites, or camping activity, etc? Well, they had no need of fire according to the Bible, as they were being provided with food, and fire/light/warmth at night supernaturally according to the Bible, etc. And they also were nomadic, and never stayed in one single place for very long, and dwelt in tents, and never built any more permanent structures, and took everything with them when they went, etc. And firewood, especially in great, or even moderate quantities, etc, is also very hard to come by in a desert, etc.

This is what I've come up with so far, etc.

I will provide more if and when I find more, and will now respond to posts/replies regarding this, but please read the paper I provided before responding if you can please, ok. It really is key, etc. And you tell me if you either accept or maybe reject it, and perhaps maybe why, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Posted below this is a post of mine from earlier, etc.

And these (below) now combined with how the Exodus could have possibly been real or actually true, now shows how just about everything in the Bible, and especially Genesis, could be actually real, and/or actually true, and this, without having to be dishonest, or completely throwing your intellect out the window, etc.

Anyway, Here was my post, etc.

The Bible can be literally or actually true if there were two races/species of human, one specially created around 4-6000 B.C., and one that just came about naturally through nature, or natural processes, etc.

The Bible can also be literally or actually true if the flood was regional, etc.

The Bible can also be literally or actually true if in the creation account, each day represents a very long period of time for each day, and the whole 7 days represents and entire existences time each time, and that we've been on day 6 already for a very, very long time, ever since the first appearance of land animals many millions of years ago now, etc, and day 7 only starts when Jesus comes back after Armageddon and takes over from God the Spirit and sets up a Kingdom here on earth that will also last a very, very long time, etc, until the end of this entire existences age actually, when will be the very final judgement/act of God when all will be judged/divided/sorted out one very final time before this entire existences closing, and after that, the start of a whole new one on day one again, but with some going to heaven where the Father dwells/always has dwelt at that time, but some only repeating their existences here again when their number comes up again after being judged and having their minds and memories completely wiped in another creation/existence again, etc, with God the Spirit finally getting His day of rest before the very, very end of all this existence on or during Jesus 7th day, until the end of that 7th day again, etc.

God Bless.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Pinning down the exact dates of the Exodus from Egypt, and who was Pharaoh at the time is difficult, and there are many different views or possibilities, and the most challenging thing about them is, a lot of them are giving several or multiple different possibilities, and are adding that each one has pretty much equal support both biblically and scientifically and archaeologically, etc. The best I could provide you with right now is maybe a possible range of dates maybe, and of possible different Pharoahs for those time periods, etc.

It sounds like you're on the road to becoming an Exodus historian, Neogaia777. I appreciate your current line of study. It is good to know that the Bible has encountered scribal errors in its transmission and we have to keep this in mind when we handle and read these ancient remnants from so long ago. Knowing this can, sometimes, help us to more rationally assess what we're reading in a book like Exodus and maybe even make more credible to our understanding as to what actually took place.

Do keep in mind, however, that finding, let alone articulating, exacting and irrefutable answers to our questions about the biblical past, especially for an event like The Exodus, is fraught with circumstantial pitfalls, as well as multiple explanatory paths (i.e. historical theories). Be careful to avoid fixing upon the "goal" of getting to the bottom of things, and don't expect to be able to find absolute answers to any and every question or sought after detail that Moses may have left for posterity to ponder over.

 

[Neogaia777]

It sounds like you're on the road to becoming an Exodus historian, Neogaia777. I appreciate your current line of study. It is good to know that the Bible has encountered scribal errors in its transmission and we have to keep this in mind when we handle and read these ancient remnants from so long ago. Knowing this can, sometimes, help us to more rationally assess what we're reading in a book like Exodus and maybe even make more credible to our understanding as to what actually took place.

Do keep in mind, however, that finding, let alone articulating, exacting and irrefutable answers to our questions about the biblical past, especially for an event like The Exodus, is fraught with circumstantial pitfalls, as well as multiple explanatory paths (i.e. historical theories). Be careful to avoid fixing upon the "goal" of getting to the bottom of things, and don't expect to be able to find absolute answers to any and every question or sought after detail that Moses may have left for posterity to ponder over.

Thanks man.

God Bless.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks man.

God Bless.

I just thought I'd affirm your study of Exodus. It's one I'm interested in too. Of course, most of us who are Christian are interested in it and for the usual reasons.

 

[BCP1928]

I just thought I'd affirm your study of Exodus. It's one I'm interested in too. Of course, most of us who are Christian are interested in it and for the usual reasons.

What reasons are those? I thought Christians were more interested in the Gospel, with the OT stories just a "prequel"

 

[AV1611VET]

Why we find no animal remains? The Israelites seem to have lost the animals they took with them from Egypt ...

Um ... no.

Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

 

[Neogaia777]

Um ... no.

Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

I just checked that in context and it appears to be part of the statutes that were being established, etc.

All I know is that the Bible says that they left Egypt with some animals and herds, but then shortly after the Red Sea, in Exodus 16:3 they were saying they were going to die of starvation after that, which makes no sense at all if they still had some of those animals and herds, etc. Also makes no sense at all if God was having to provide them with heavenly mana daily after that, etc. And also the quail cause they have no meat, etc.

But your quote seems to be a part of the commandments, or statutes, or order that was being established, etc, and I will have to search the rest of Exodus to see if there is any record of the Israelites making any kind of animal sacrifices upon that altar, or any kind of altar when or while they were in the wilderness.

Maybe you can look for it or try to find it?

Because I'm in bed right now.

God Bless.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What reasons are those? I thought Christians were more interested in the Gospel, with the OT stories just a "prequel"

For the reason of recognizing the necessity of there being at least a minimum of Coherence to the biblical literature, so that we don't wake up each and every day feeling like the cognitive dissonance really is a sign that what the Skeptics are saying truly does point to our delusions of "living happily ever after."

Y'know. ... It has to do with that reality "thang" everyone and their dog is concerned about, whether they hope for it, or they gut wrenchingly hate it.

It probably also has to do with the obvious cognitive and epistemological speed-bumps that come with reading even single verses in the Bible, like:

Luke 24:44-45

44 He [Jesus] said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”​

​

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures ...​

​

'Cuz even someone like me has to recognize the challenge this poses and, at some point in the analysis, try to suck on that jaw-breaker ...

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I never believed those numbers of the amount of people in the exodus from Egypt, as they created a lot of logic problems for me, but I now believe this paper is accurate, and shows the true numbers, etc, which is about 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc. You'll need to get a look at the whole paper to know how they reached this conclusion, etc, which will require you to at least make an account, etc, but it is well worth it in my view, etc.

The census taken of all the men would indicate that it was indeed closer to 2 million. I'm not convinced by smaller numbers at the present time.

This solves the problems of around 2/3 of the Egyptian population being all of the sudden gone, or disappearing,

Where in the bible does it say 2/3 of the Egyptian population disappears? How did you get to this number?

Pinning down the exact dates of the Exodus from Egypt, and who was Pharaoh at the time is difficult, and there are many different views or possibilities, and the most challenging thing about them is, a lot of them are giving several or multiple different possibilities, and are adding that each one has pretty much equal support both biblically and scientifically and archaeologically, etc. The best I could provide you with right now is maybe a possible range of dates maybe, and of possible different Pharoahs for those time periods, etc.

Isaiah 52:4 - Pharaoh was an Assyrian. Which means Pharaoh had to be a Hyksos. There is a mandela effect in which the world believes Pharaoh King of Egypt must have been native Egyptian. He wasn't. The Exodus occurred at the end of the Hyksos dynasty c. 1550 BC

Why we find no animal remains? The Israelites seem to have lost the animals they took with them from Egypt shortly after the Red Sea, etc,
exactly why that is is anyone's guess, but they didn't seem to have them anymore shorty after the Red Sea, when they began quickly complaining that they were going to die of starvation without any food, and that the Bible records is when God started feeding them with heavenly mana supernaturally, etc.

The Bible doesn't indicate that. You are using your own reasoning and speculation which always leads to trouble. Stick with the Biblical account. Mana is not sheep; it's bread. Bread isn't replacing sheep. They had nothing to make bread with because they were nomadic; they couldn't grow wheat and barely and spelt in the wilderness, so God gave them the bread from Heaven, a spiritual metaphor of Christ being the Bread of Life. As far as complaining about starvation, they were complaining because they didn't have their Debbie Treats and Starbucks anymore. They were spoiled and ungrateful.

And as mentioned earlier, why not any other archaeological evidence of campsites, or camping activity, etc? Well, they had no need of fire according to the Bible, as they were being provided with food, and fire/light/warmth at night supernaturally according to the Bible, etc. And they also were nomadic, and never stayed in one single place for very long, and dwelt in tents, and never built any more permanent structures, and took everything with them when they went, etc. And firewood, especially in great, or even moderate quantities, etc, is also very hard to come by in a desert, etc.

Yes to some of those things but they were still building fires. The fact that no one has tried to excavate or do any type of major archaeological work in the Sinai seems to escape you? Even if there is evidence out there, there's a lot of ground to cover and you have to go down several geological stratas in an unforgiving environment. No one is eager to do that.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

All I know is that the Bible says that they left Egypt with some animals and herds, but then shortly after the Red Sea, in Exodus 16:3 they were saying they were going to die of starvation after that, which makes no sense at all if they still had some of those animals and herds, etc. Also makes no sense at all if God was having to provide them with heavenly mana daily after that, etc. And also the quail cause they have no meat, etc.

Exodus 17:3; Numbers 32:16; Joshua 1:14

Besides the daily sacrifice; they needed the livestock for all the festivals besides that. Numbers 28-29 If there were no sacrifices what were Aaron and his sons doing all day?

You have to understand that the Israelites had a slave mentality. Egyptians fed their slaves well--Herodutus mentions this. Israel had a whole host of different foods to eat in Egypt (Numbers 11:5; Numbers 20:4) to be brought out to a desert and have no veggies or bread -- which as I mentioned before is why God gave them mana. The quail was for meat because, my own speculation, is they were not in a position to be butchering their livestock yet for food and without refrigeration they'd have to eat it quickly, so the livestock were for dairy, breeding, and eventually taking of the younger calves or lambs for food, but they might have had to wait for the sheep to have babies again after celebrating the Passover and sacrificing the 1st year sheep and goats.

Quail were small enough birds for everyone to eat to their fill without nothing left over to spoil and could be prepped within the day. My grandmother when she butchered a chicken in the morning let it soak in salt water all day and then cooked it in the evening.

 

[AV1611VET]

All I know is that the Bible says that they left Egypt with some animals and herds, but then shortly after the Red Sea, in Exodus 16:3 they were saying they were going to die of starvation after that, which makes no sense at all if they still had some of those animals and herds, etc.

That is correct.

Also makes no sense at all if God was having to provide them with heavenly mana daily after that, etc. And also the quail cause they have no meat, etc.

Complain, complain, complain, is all they did.

Numbers 11:6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

But your quote seems to be a part of the commandments, or statutes, or order that was being established, etc, and I will have to search the rest of Exodus to see if there is any record of the Israelites making any kind of animal sacrifices upon that altar, or any kind of altar when or while they were in the wilderness.

They got more animals from spoiling their enemies.

Numbers 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

Maybe you can look for it or try to find it?

They built the Tabernacle in the Wilderness and sacrificed daily therein.

 

[Neogaia777]

That is correct.



Complain, complain, complain, is all they did.

Numbers 11:6 But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.



They got more animals from spoiling their enemies.

Numbers 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.



They built the Tabernacle in the Wilderness and sacrificed daily therein.

Either way, if their numbers were only about 20 thousand or so, instead of 2 million, etc, they might not have had a ton of animals, etc. And from what I am reading online right now, suggests they could have got animals from other places later on in the wilderness other than the ones they originally left with from Egypt also, which might have been killed, or eaten initially, etc. But their numbers being only around 20 thousand or so, online suggests that maybe they didn't have enough to sustain them, and this is also why they had to have the Heavenly mana also, and also that maybe they didn't want to slaughter what might have been all of their animals if they were to do that also, etc. But, because the animals were usually used for sacrifices and burnt offerings, and they may not have been as many in number as previously thought, etc, and they certainly didn't bury them, etc, anyway, this is why we might not find very many carcasses or bones of them archaeologically in the Sinai desert nowadays, etc, especially if their numbers were only around 20 thousand, and not 2 million, etc.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

I will provide more if and when I find more, and will now respond to posts/replies regarding this, but please read the paper I provided before responding if you can please, ok. It really is key, etc. And you tell me if you either accept or maybe reject it, and perhaps maybe why, etc.

It's a true academic nightmare, isn't it, Neogaia?

But that's where God really shines:

Driving mountains and mountains of natural impossibilities into the sea!

 

[AV1611VET]

Either way, if their numbers were only about 20 thousand or so, instead of 2 million, etc, they might not have had a ton of animals, etc.

Just move that decimal place as needed and problems just vanish away, don't they?

Chisel, forcefit, and compact all data until they meet academic standards, and all mysteries just vanish into thin air.

Take God out of the picture, and you don't have to deal with anyone saying "God did it."

Right?

And from what I am reading online right now, suggests they could have got animals from other places later on in the wilderness other than the ones they originally left with from Egypt also, which might have been killed, or eaten initially, etc.

Didn't I point that out in Post 12, when I quoted this:

Numbers 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

 

[Neogaia777]

Just move that decimal place as needed and problems just vanish away, don't they?

Chisel, forcefit, and compact all data until they meet academic standards, and all mysteries just vanish into thin air.

Take God out of the picture, and you don't have to deal with anyone saying "God did it."

Right?

No offense @AV1611VET, but I think it's kind of sad that you seem to be and/or are all against academic or otherwise or whatever "fact", etc.

How are you even trying to defend the faith if you are not even trying to make it believable in today's modern era, etc?

Didn't I point that out in Post 12, when I quoted this:

Numbers 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

I am right smack dab in the middle of reading and looking things up, and it's been a little while for me, so it is like a refresher course, etc, but yes, it seems they procured some more animals later on, other than the ones they initially or originally left with from Egypt, etc.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

How are you even trying to defend the faith if you are not even trying to make it believable, etc?

If I have to chisel, forcefit, and move decimal points arbitrarily to defend my faith, then my faith is weak.

 

[Neogaia777]

If I have to chisel, forcefit, and move decimal points arbitrarily to defend my faith, then my faith is weak.

It's not moving decimal points or anything or whatever, etc.

Did you even bother to look at the paper? Because you should.

Fact needs to line up with fact, and that is all I am trying to do here, etc.

And I 100% believe that is most definitely possible, etc.

God Bless.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No offense @AV1611VET, but I think it's kind of sad that you seem to be and/or are all against academic or otherwise or whatever "fact", etc.

How are you even trying to defend the faith if you are not even trying to make it believable in today's modern era, etc?

That's a legitimate question ...

I am right smack dab in the middle of reading and looking things up, and it's been a little while for me, so it is like a refresher course, etc, but yes, it seems they procured some more animals later on, other than the ones they initially or originally left with from Egypt, etc.

God Bless.

And keep doing what you're doing as you find the interest to do so, Neogaia.

 

[Neogaia777]

If I have to chisel, forcefit, and move decimal points arbitrarily to defend my faith, then my faith is weak.

What if your faith is rooted in a lie, etc?

Is it not also very weak then also, etc?

You say it is what God said, or says, etc, but how do you know for sure that you are just not simply only following some man or men's interpretations or traditions that haven't even bothered injecting any kind of new information or evidence into them for a very, very long time, etc?

God Bless.