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Ecumenical Excesses

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InnerPhyre

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masuwerte said:
Please don't take offence, but I've taken Communion at about five different Catholic parishes on different occasions over the years, always asking the priest first. Only once was I asked to refrain, which I did. I would respect the judgment of the priests I spoke with.


Look, man....We're not making a big deal out of this to be offensive to non-Catholics. The fact is though that you are not Catholic and our Churches are not in communion with each other and until we are, we cannot share a common Eucharist. If priests gave you communion without the permission of their bishop, they committed a serious offense.
 
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Benedicta00

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I want my feelings to be know, if a single orthodox Catholic gets any warning because of this thread I will have a holy fit.

All any of us are doing in here is defending the truth that so many obviously care so little about!
 
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Skripper

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Shelb5 said:
I want my feelings to be know, if a single orthodox Catholic gets any warning because of this thread I will have a holy fit.

All any of us are doing in here is defending the truth that so many obviously care so little about!

Chill.
 
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Benedicta00

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masuwerte said:
Again, I would respect the judgment of the priests I spoke with. And no Shelb, I don't think it's funny.
What about a preist judgment on artificial contraception? Would you respect that as well? Would it be wrong for us to oppose that?
 
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Shelb5 said:
What about a preist judgment on artificial contraception? Would you respect that as well? Would it be wrong for us to oppose that?

The priests I received communion from know I am an Episcopalian. I asked first; I didn't do it to anger you.
 
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InnerPhyre

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From the Catechism:



1400 Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."240 1401 When, in the Ordinary's judgment, a grave necessity arises, Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church, who ask for them of their own will, provided they give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding these sacraments and possess the required dispositions.241

Simply being Anglican and attending a Catholic Church does not qualify as a "grave necessity" since one does not have to receive communion every week. If you're dying and there is no Anglican priest around, that's one thing. Just attending a Catholic Church and wanting communion is another.
 
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CaDan

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Paul S said:
Perhaps the real question here is why is a Catholic funeral being celebrated for someone who's not Catholic?

Perhaps because the Pope is qualified to judge who is and who is not in communion with him?

Benedict XVI said:
This news has affected me even more because precisely yesterday I received a very moving, affectionate letter from Frère Roger. In it he wrote that from the depth of his heart he wanted to tell me that "we are in communion with you and with those who have gathered in Cologne."

Every pope since John XXIII respected and honored Frere Roger and his mission. Might I suggest we do the same?
 
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Milla

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Paul S said:
Are you familar with what the sin of scandal is?

Even if the bishop or the Pope allowed this, so there's no sin in receiving, the message it sends to the world is that non-Catholics may receive Communion. So, next time a Protestant gets turned away at Mass, he'll be confused about why it was allowed here but not at his parish, and may think that the Church is just a bunch of stupid rules.

Yes. I am, thank you. That is exactly why I say that if people didn't read one news article and assume that they knew everything important about an issue, scandal would not be such a problem. A little bit of knowlege out of context is often worse than no knowlege at all, if a person is not willing to think critically and recongnize their own ignorance. This goes for Catholics and non-Catholics alike.
 
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Benedicta00

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masuwerte said:
The priests I received communion from know I am an Episcopalian. I asked first; I didn't do it to anger you.
I asked you a qustion , will you answer it please?

I'l ask it again.

Would you respect the priest judgement on contraceptives?

But an FYI- a priest really doesn’t have the power to allow you to commune in the first place- he would be over stepping is authority if he did.

So you know what that means? You have encountered a few disobedient priests along the way.
 
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Benedicta00

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InnerPhyre said:
Masuwerte, if we seem harsh, it is because a lot of us just want to weep for the state of the Church in the USA right now where abuses are so rampant that those who speak out against them are seem as extremists.
yep
 
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JCrawf

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Paul S said:
Daily Communion is a wonderful thing - but perhaps it's gotten us too used to "go to Mass, receive Communion", rather than being properly prepared to receive Him. Maybe if receiving the Sacrament wasn't as common, people would reflect more on whether they were worthy.

And saying it thrice would help, too. ;)

I wouldn't put daily Communion as the problem, being that the majority of Catholics don't even bother to go to daily mass that often. Karl Keating makes a good observation of this in his June 28, 2005 letter:

"Consider what has happened to holy days of obligation.

Many of them no longer are obligatory at all, though that may depend on where you live. In some regions of the country Catholics are dispensed from having to show up at Mass on certain holy days, while in other regions the traditional obligation still applies.

Alternately, sometimes holy days that would fall on a weekday or Saturday are transferred to the nearest Sunday, making that Sunday's Mass a twofer.

REASONS AND EXCUSES

What has been the rationale for such manipulations of the liturgical calendar? Proponents of the changes have made several arguments:

1. Turnout for weekday holy days is low. Holy days are established by the Church because they are important; they tell us something about what we believe. If people fail to show up for Mass on holy days, they miss out on that element of their faith.

2. If a holy day is transferred to Sunday, more people can be instructed about the day's meaning.

3. Many Catholics miss Mass on holy days, either because they forget to go or because they can't get off work. Some of them feel unnecessarily guilty for having done so, and they bring this false sense of guilt into the confessional.

These reasons are said to be "pastoral," in the sense that word so often is used nowadays. A more accurate word might be "accommodating."

Changing the days on which holy days are observed takes into account what many Catholics really do (which is to say: they stay home if they can) and tries to make participation in the Church's liturgical life as convenient for them as possible.

This is bad psychology. What is easy is not valued. When the Church makes a weekday holy day not obligatory or moves it to a Sunday, what message is sent to the laity? Aren't the folks in the pews told, though not in so many words, that the belief or event behind the holy day isn't important?"


The last paragraph seems to be at the crux of the matter. We center the worship too much on ourselves and forget that we come to recieve our Lord. St. Paul had noted that this reception should be done worthily, yet many Christains has lost a grasp of what this means. Even Lutherans I have spoken on this recently speak about how even the basic necessity to go to church on Sundays has become hard for some Christians to consider. Afterall, on the other side of the spectrum, the Last Supper has a sort of duality between reverence and supersticious prejudices. While they may speak about the sacrifice of the Lord and being "washed in His blood," they often see the issue of the True Presence in transubstantiation as being a Roman (often "pagan") tradition and scoff at the view that the bread and wine change into the body and blood, saying that if this were litterally true that it would be a form of cannibalism. Others speak of it as sacrilige because they believe that Jesus was crucified "once for all" and do not see the Eucharist as being the way in which we come into Christ's passion and seeing the timlessness of that sacrifice as "once for all" in the light of all salvation history. For thiese reasons do many non-Catholic Christains abstain from the Eucharist and even limit the Last Supper to maby bi-weekly, monthly, or even just once a year. It is not as much about taking the cup worthily, but misunderstanding the sacrifice of Christ and how we can come to the Eucharist, recieve our Lord's body and blood, and thusly participate in the passion of our Lord. Many Evangelicals do not see how it is possible that we can participate in the Passion. Some even consider it sacrilige to even say that we can be a part of sacrifice, with the question of how can we give to God anything when He made everything? These are the issues that divide us. And yet some Protestants who may have found their way past some of these prejudices still have a hard time fully coming into Communion with the Catholic Church. And if this be so, why would they want to take the body and blood unworthily, knowing full well that they are not yet in full communion. The only thing I can say is that they want to put the cart before the horse, or they don't believe they have to bear the cross before coiming to Jesus. It is much like the young rich man who eagerly wanted to come to Jesus, yet did not want to be rid of his personal riches. Yet, if we let go of those things, how much greater the treasure in the presence of our Lord!

Pax Tecum,

John
 
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Paul S

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JCrawf said:
I wouldn't put daily Communion as the problem, being that the majority of Catholics don't even bother to go to daily mass that often. Karl Keating makes a good observation of this in his June 28, 2005 letter:

Maybe not daily Communion then, but weekly. I meant "daily" as in "every day one goes to Mass". I should have been clearer.

And I agree about the holy days of obligation.
 
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gitlance

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LutherCath,

Let me give you some advice. I am an Anglican, and you say that you receive the Holy Eucharist in our Masses from time to time. As you may or may not know, we also have certain requirements on who receives and who doesn't. Now, I am not here to tell you whether or not you can receive the Blessed Sacrament in an Anglican parish. Come over to STR if you wanna talk about that.

But I will tell you this: while we Anglicans do consider ourselves fully Catholic, and would defend it to death, we respect our brothers' and sisters' decision in the Roman Communion to deny the Blessed Sacrament to those outside of their Communion. That is perfectly fine, and in accord with a long history of Tradition. In fact, the Anglican Church did not change the main requirement from Confirmation to Baptism until about 20 or 30 years ago. Some provinces in the world still won't allow you to receive if you are not a confirmed Anglican, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox. You need to respect peoples' views when it comes to this. You may believe yourself to be in "spiritual communion" with Roman Catholics; you may believe in transubstantiation; you may even believe in the authority of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. But the fact of the matter is that you are not UNDER his authority. And until you are UNDER his authority (i.e., having been confirmed into the Roman Catholic Church), you are obligated by conscience, and kindly requested by the Church, not to receive the Sacrament. I know it may be painful for you, but you are always welcome to receive in an Anglican parish (as we believe that we have maintained the fullness of the Sacraments -- but I do not say that to start a debate with my Catholic brothers and sisters).

Please refrain from arguing with them on their board. If you want to argue, you should take it somewhere else out of respect for them. But please, it is unnecessary to fight them on their own turf. They know what they are talking about, they know what they believe, and you should respect them because of that.

In Christ's holy Name. :crossrc:
 
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