Ecumenical Excesses

[gitlance]

How can one be fully Catholic if they do not believe in all of the Catholic doctrine which includes papal authority?

Well, that's not a debate for this board. If you would like to discuss it with me, I would be more than happy to receive a PM from you, or you can bring it to the STR board. Also, if you have AIM, you can IM me at the screenname "gitlance".

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, that's not a debate for this board. If you would like to discuss it with me, I would be more than happy to receive a PM from you, or you can bring it to the STR board. Also, if you have AIM, you can IM me at the screenname "gitlance".

This issue for me really isn’t up for debate but thanks for the invitation to discuss it.

 

[gitlance]

This issue for me really isn’t up for debate but thanks for the invitation to discuss it.

Of course. Please know that you are always welcome at STR. May the peace of Christ be with you.

 

[raptor13]

Apparently, there are some rumors going around that Br. Roger officially converted to Catholicism late in his life, but perhaps chose not to make it public. In that case, the entire original point is moot. Well... sorta.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I too find this thread incredibly sad,br. roger was an ecumenical saint totaly in love with the lord,I find it beyond belief that this holy man brought anything but joy to the savior,s eyes when he received the LORD,S SUPPER with brother baptized believers.I too am an ecumenical christian in unity with all my fellow baptized believers,I was baptized into the holy catholic(universal)church not any denomination,and as it,s the LORD,S SUPPER and i believe as jesus said that it is his body and blood(real presence) and he commanded me to partake in his body and blood,i do so in whatever church i,m attending be it catholic,anglican,or lutheran, and i,m not the least bit worried about damnation,hellfire,or judgement against me for doing so! in christian unity,luthcath

He also commanded you to submit to the authority He established. Why pick and choose which commands to follow?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Every pope since John XXIII respected and honored Frere Roger and his mission. Might I suggest we do the same?

Please, don't turn pretend and turn this into some disrepecting of Brother Roger. I said in the opening post that it is a scandal that takes away from mourning him. The truth our Church teaches either means something, or it doesn't!

 

[Cat59]

I suppose to people who are feeling very "raw" over his death- as I am- this thread is difficult. When the Pope died, many others were respectful of our feelings and tried to ensure that threads that might be wounding were limited. This thread is quite wounding- unintentionally, I'm sure, to those who wish Brother Roger's legacy to be remembered as one who tried to unify rather than divide. The issues are important but at the moment, for some, it is sensitive.
I've bumped up the other thread about his death for anyone who wishes to post some memories, thoughts etc.
http://www.christianforums.com/t1988842-brother-roger-of-taize-murdered.html&page=2#post17955036

 

[Globalnomad]

And I'll "bump up" my earlier question, which got lost in the crowd.

Cardinal Kasper, one of the foremost Princes of the Church, certainly acting with the Pope's approval, officiated at Brother Roger's funeral and allowed the Eucharist to be shared more widely that the usual Church rules allow.

OK, do we pass judgement on the Pope and the Cardinal for error and the sin of sacrilege, or do we accept that they know better than us, and defer peacefully to their judgement?

 

[Benedicta00]

And I'll "bump up" my earlier question, which got lost in the crowd.

Cardinal Kasper, one of the foremost Princes of the Church, certainly acting with the Pope's approval, officiated at Brother Roger's funeral and allowed the Eucharist to be shared more widely that the usual Church rules allow.

OK, do we pass judgement on the Pope and the Cardinal for error and the sin of sacrilege, or do we accept that they know better than us, and defer peacefully to their judgement?

I did answer you. I said that of dispensations were given fine, i can live with that, i do not like it but I can live with it.

 

[luthercath]

to honor br.roger a quote from another ecumenical saint.the christian martyr-pastor dietrich bonhoeffer "christian brotherhood is not an ideal in which we must realize;it is rather a reality created by god in christ in which we may participate,the more clearly we learn to recognize that the ground and strength and promise of all our fellowship is in jesus christ alone,the more serenely shall we think of our fellowship and pray and hope for it.because christian community is founded solely on jesus christ,it is a spiritual and not a psychic reality.thank god for loving christians like br.roger,pastor bonhoeffer,and the taize community. always in christian UNITY, luthcath

 

[Benedicta00]

because christian community is founded solely on jesus christ,it is a spiritual and not a psychic reality

No, this is not correct at all. The reality is that the Christian community is both visible as well as invisible, and it isn’t one more than the other.

The Church of Christ is not solely a lose body of believers, this is not what unifies Christians. What unifies Christians is the Church that Jesus established, His bride and our entering into the great wedding feat of the Lamb. As married people are made one with each other, we are made one with god as we enter into this covenat with jesus and this happens through his Church.

Non Catholics share this covenant with God through their link to His bride through baptism whether that be of water, blood or desire. They are incorporated into the mystical body of Christ although they remain separated from the visible Church he died to give to us so that we may come to know the fullness of his revelation, through which we find salvation.

 

[marciadietrich]

I really do not know what goes on in a dispensation situation but I would assume that some preparation would be done i.e. if the person was at least not living in a state of mortal sin.

How on earth can that be ascertained without sacramental confession? We know we're safe with a practicing Orthodox because they would be confessing within the sacrament with valid line of succession priests after baptism. A Lutheran baptized as an infant who has never had sacramental confession how could we be sure there were no "mortal" sin in all those years between baptism and the wedding day? A presumption of innocence due to lack of full knowledge? Why not that presumption on a wider basis then?

Even if they were surely innocent of all potential mortal sin (very unlikely according to the mastubation and lust is a mortal sin unless you have a 'gun to your head' line of reasoning) they still do not accept the Catholic faith in all areas, and in that they still are not properly disposed by the standards set for converts. I had to sit out as a Catechumen in RCIA because I wasn't baptized, but I think candidates may be excluded just to have that goal to be sure they totally commit to conversion and confirmation first. That some have pressed to get sacramental confession far in advance of their entrance again makes me think it isn't that baptized Christians can't have access to the sacraments, but it is being held back until they make a formal commitment.

This seems like the 'why would they buy the cow if they can get the milk for free' type of system. Where in some cases giving the milk might show people why they should buy the cow. (Sorry to make conversion into a cow. )

Marcia

 

[Globalnomad]

I did answer you. I said that of dispensations were given fine, i can live with that, i do not like it but I can live with it.

Yes, you did, thanks. As for dipensations, as I said in a later message, Kasper is an ordained Bishop - so if he gives Communion to a non-Catholic, I'd say the dispensation is there ipso facto. He can hardly be asked to write, sign and seal an official letter to himself giving himself the authority to do it...

 

[Benedicta00]

Yes, you did, thanks. As for dipensations, as I said in a later message, Kasper is an ordained Bishop - so if he gives Communion to a non-Catholic, I'd say the dispensation is there ipso facto. He can hardly be asked to write, sign and seal an official letter to himself giving himself the authority to do it...

No but giving it to a entire community who is not catholic needs to go to the pope.

I don’t have a huge issue with communing for a circumstance like that provided these people have disposed themselves some kind of way but for this to be a ongoing thing in the Church- no way.

Bishops can not ipso facto up and decided Sunday we are letting all non Catholics come up and receive. that goes beyond his authority.

 

[Globalnomad]

No but giving it to a entire community who is not catholic needs to go to the pope.

I don’t have a huge issue with communing for a circumstance like that provided these people have disposed themselves some kind of way but for this to be a ongoing thing in the Church- no way.

Bishops can not ipso facto up and decided Sunday we are letting all non Catholics come up and receive. that goes beyond his authority.

Of course it was done with the Pope's approval, do you doubt that for a minute?

And nobody is suggesting that it should become an ongoing thing. Brother Roger's funeral was a UNIQUE occasion, that needed unique handling, that's the whole point. (Do people in the USA understand just how unique Taizé is? I get the feeling that the US has been left out of this to some extent.)

This discussion reminded me of a wel'-known piece by that very wonderful and venerable Italian hermit Carlo Carretto, who died in 1988.
=====================================================
How much I must criticize you, my Church, and yet how much I love you!

How you have made me suffer, and yet how much I owe you.

I should like to see you destroyed, and yet I need your presence.

You have given me so much scandal, and yet you have made me understand

holiness.

Never in the world have I seen anything more obscurantist, more

compromised, more false, yet never have I touched anything more pure, more

generous or more beautiful.

How often I have felt like slamming the door of my soul in your face - and

how often I have prayed that I might die in your sure arms!

No, I cannot be free of you, for I am one with you, even though not

completely you.

Then, too - where should I go? To build another?

But I cannot build another without the same defects, for they are my own

defects I bear within me.

And again, if I build one, it will be my Church, and no longer Christ's.



-- Carlo Carretto, I Sought and I Found

 

[Benedicta00]

Of course it was done with the Pope's approval, do you doubt that for a minute?

And nobody is suggesting that it should become an ongoing thing. Brother Roger's funeral was a UNIQUE occasion, that needed unique handling, that's the whole point. (Do people in the USA understand just how unique Taizé is? I get the feeling that the US has been left out of this to some extent.)

This discussion reminded me of a wel'-known piece by that very wonderful and venerable Italian hermit Carlo Carretto, who died in 1988.
=====================================================
How much I must criticize you, my Church, and yet how much I love you!

How you have made me suffer, and yet how much I owe you.

I should like to see you destroyed, and yet I need your presence.

You have given me so much scandal, and yet you have made me understand

holiness.

Never in the world have I seen anything more obscurantist, more

compromised, more false, yet never have I touched anything more pure, more

generous or more beautiful.

How often I have felt like slamming the door of my soul in your face - and

how often I have prayed that I might die in your sure arms!

No, I cannot be free of you, for I am one with you, even though not

completely you.

Then, too - where should I go? To build another?

But I cannot build another without the same defects, for they are my own

defects I bear within me.

And again, if I build one, it will be my Church, and no longer Christ's.



-- Carlo Carretto, I Sought and I Found

I said I didn’t have a huge problem with that, I said I can live with it as long as no one is being their own authority, why are you being hostile with me?

 

[plainswolf]

While it is certainly good to reach out to other faiths, 'ecumenical excesses' happen when polytheistic Hindus are allowed to have a prayer service on the consecrated altar at the Shrine of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal..

But consequently validly ordained Catholic priests of the SSPX were prohibited by the shrine rector from doing the very same thing, and instead had to construct a temporary tent Church in a field to have Mass and their prayer service. They made a pilgrimage to Fatima to make reparations to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for the desecration caused by the Hindus who prayed to their demonic gods on a consecrated Catholic altar... Folks, what is wrong with this picture when pagans are allowed to desecrate Catholic altars but validly ordained Catholic priests are prohibited from praying and having Mass there which would certainly contribute fostering internal Catholic unity? Granted, the SSPX bishops are illicitly consecrated, but they are valid and are throroughly Catholic.

Its quite clear we need the SSPX back fully into the fold.. So lets challenge ourselves to pray a Rosary that the meeting on Aug. 29th goes well between Pope Benedict and the Superior General of the SSPX.. And also, most importantly let us all practice the First Five Saturday's Reparatory devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary which She asked us all to do at Fatima. It consists of going to Confession and Communion of the First Saturday of every month for five consecutive months with the intention of making reparation to Her Immaculate Heart and prayng 5 decades of the Rosary... And keeping Her company for 15 minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary... Reparations for the following: "My daughter, the reason is simple. There are five types of offenses and blasphemies committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary:

1. Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
2. Blasphemies against Her Perpetual Virginity.
3. Blasphemies against Her Divine Maternity, in refusing at the same time to recognize Her as the Mother of men.
4. The blasphemies of those who publicly seek to sow in the hearts of children indifference or scorn, or even hatred of this Immaculate Mother.
5. The offenses of those who outrage Her directly in Her holy images.
"Here, My daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary inspired Me to ask for this little act of Reparation ..."


God Bless
Mark

 

[InnerPhyre]

I said I didn’t have a huge problem with that, I said I can live with it as long as no one is being their own authority, why are you being hostile with me?

You may be able to live with it....I cannot. No communion for Protestants outside of dire circumstances, as the Catechism says. None of these Protestants were on their deathbeds. If the decision came from the Pope himself, then the Pope erred and endangered the souls of the group of Protestants there. We cannot profane the sacred Body and Blood of Christ because it might be seen as uncomfortable. I am SO TIRED of being viewed as the villain for standing up for the Catholic faith. This is the perfect example of EVERYTHING that is wrong with this cursed post-vatican II era. We Catholics have to feel bad for being who we are and doing what our faith demands. We have to apologize for our faith. We have to compromise our faith. I'm sick of it!

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, I can not comprehend how a pope can allow such a large number who can not be properly disposed but I trust he knows what he is doing because where else are we going to go? who else has the words of eternal life? .

 

[Paul S]

Well, I can not comprehend how a pope can allow such a large number who can not be properly disposed but I trust he knows what he is doing because where else are we going to go? who else has the words of eternal life? .

The Pope here is not teaching, as head of the Church, a matter of faith and morals. Thus, infallibility does not apply, just as it didn't apply to John Paul's kissing the Koran. Popes can sin, even mortally. They're not impeccable.