Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[~Anastasia~]

Please don't take offence at me saying some EO appear to embrace grace more than others.
I would only class myself as Christian, not of a particular denomination. I fully agree with you. In ALL denominations there are people half hearted I you like about God, and others not so.
As I may have told you. In my youth I went to a denomination That believed it was the only true fist century church, and stood full square on the bible. I fully believed them at the time. However, when i fully read the NT for myself I was stunned, much of what was written in it concerning the gospel message I had never heard preached from the pulpit.
So I am not one who believes there is any set denomination that has a monopoly on truth preached. Once yes, not since.

I'm not offended, Stuart. People have to do the best they can in finding the Truth, with the help of God.

I would just be careful in assuming what people "seem to" believe and embrace, or not.

I'm not saying there are not lukewarm Orthodox - I'm sure there are. And if you know someone well in daily life, you may indeed be able to form a pretty informed opinion, if their words and actions contradict the faith, and they are not at all new to it, regardless of what kind of church they claim. But we must be careful.

I have met a few people who don't seem to do or say much that would make you think their faith had any real influence on them. But then if I happened to get to know them much better, I have (more than once!) found a rock-solid core to their faith that was fervently dedicated to God, despite their quietness and lack of show about it outwardly. I have especially found this within Orthodoxy, and even within persons who don't regularly attend Church.

So I have learned that we must be careful, very careful, in thinking we can know the heart of a person and what they believe and think, unless they share it with us. Those surprises taught me that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I will speak from personal experience.
And i know God has no favourites. So I'm sure I am no special case.
I have let God down much in my life. I did not take up the particular cross given to me, I was selfish, I was wrong.
Did this mean Christ disowned me?

No!
If we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot disown himself
2tim2:13

So did I just get away with being selfish? Were there no reprocussions at all.
Yes there were. While I did what I wanted I was miserable, not happy. Nothing succeeded in my life, for i was not going what God wanted me to do.
I believe it comes down to whether you truly have been born again. A person who from the outset I somewhat indifferent about God, just wants to go through the motions, may not have such a conscience as i had. They may simply of made excuses for their refusal to do what they should, I could never do that.
I hope that makes sense.
What I do know is this. If you have truly been born again, and the law God desires you to keep us within you, it is utterly impossible to use grace as a licence to sin. It cannot be done.

The only time in your life you have peace and happiness believing faith in Christ is your righteousness before God is when you follow the path of being a work in progress.
Step outside of that path, and your peace, happiness starts to diminish, and so does your ability to look to Christ, believing faith I him is your righteousness.

It is a full proof covenant

Once again, I hope what i have written makes sense to you

I think I understand what you are saying.

Do you know what it puts me in mind of? It may be a matter of timing too. Now that I mention timing, it puts me in mind of TWO things.

The first thing that came to mind was the Prodigal Son. Like you, I have had experience of that, and I won't disagree with you. Thank God, He is faithful to us, and His faithfulness does not compare to our faithlessness. When the Prodigal decided to return home, his father was certainly waiting for him and ready to receive him, rejoicing even. And just as you say, living in the pig pens of the world, we cannot be happy as children of God.

The other thing that came to mind (we have just recently been reminded of these two passages - there is a Sunday dedicated to each of them going into Great Lent) ... but with the rest of what we've talked about is the Publican and the Pharisee.

We are continually reminded that the outward righteousness of the Pharisee, coupled with a prideful heart that was far from God, did not win any approval in God's sight, while the "sinful" publican, merely in recognizing his sin and asking God's mercy in humility, was justified before God.

The publican's simple prayer is also the heart of many (most? even all?) Orthodox, as we are taught to embrace the Jesus Prayer, in hopes that it will become permanently resident in our heart, and embody our approach to God - "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

There is great joy and freedom in being released from the bondage of trying to be "good enough" (because we can't) and relying on the mercy of God and the Name (and Person) of Christ. But at the same time, the humility that comes from that, and the gratefulness, and the work of the Holy Spirit within us, will form us into the image of Christ, if we will but cooperate and not resist.

It's like a beautiful dance, an activity that happens, balanced in several ways, dynamic and in motion throughout our lives. Certainly not a passive, static state. Glory to God!

 

[stuart lawrence]

I think I understand what you are saying.

Do you know what it puts me in mind of? It may be a matter of timing too. Now that I mention timing, it puts me in mind of TWO things.

The first thing that came to mind was the Prodigal Son. Like you, I have had experience of that, and I won't disagree with you. Thank God, He is faithful to us, and His faithfulness does not compare to our faithlessness. When the Prodigal decided to return home, his father was certainly waiting for him and ready to receive him, rejoicing even. And just as you say, living in the pig pens of the world, we cannot be happy as children of God.

The other thing that came to mind (we have just recently been reminded of these two passages - there is a Sunday dedicated to each of them going into Great Lent) ... but with the rest of what we've talked about is the Publican and the Pharisee.

We are continually reminded that the outward righteousness of the Pharisee, coupled with a prideful heart that was far from God, did not win any approval in God's sight, while the "sinful" publican, merely in recognizing his sin and asking God's mercy in humility, was justified before God.

The publican's simple prayer is also the heart of many (most? even all?) Orthodox, as we are taught to embrace the Jesus Prayer, in hopes that it will become permanently resident in our heart, and embody our approach to God - "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

There is great joy and freedom in being released from the bondage of trying to be "good enough" (because we can't) and relying on the mercy of God and the Name (and Person) of Christ. But at the same time, the humility that comes from that, and the gratefulness, and the work of the Holy Spirit within us, will form us into the image of Christ, if we will but cooperate and not resist.

It's like a beautiful dance, an activity that happens, balanced in several ways, dynamic and in motion throughout our lives. Certainly not a passive, static state. Glory to God!

You have mentioned the Christians cooperation with God a few times. What exactly is this coperation?
I'm sure we agree, it is cooperation to lead an evermore holy life.

In rom ch6 Paul tell us the christian is to cross over from being a slave of sin when the come to Christ, into a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. What is the cooperation required of the believer so this may happen?

We who are Jews by birth and not mere gentile sinners know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Christ
So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified
Gal2:15&16

What justification Is Paul specifically speaking of here?

He is speaking of the justification of new converts to Christianity in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness, for he goes on to say:

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
Verses17&18

Paul is speaking in these verses of a justification seen over a period of time, therefore, he is not speaking here in respect of the christians righteousness, for Christ is their saviour from sin. That righteousness is instantaneous.

So Paul states, the christian crosses over from one state to the other by faith in Christ, they trust in Christ to bring them to be a slave if righteousness leading to holiness. They do not seek this justification/ crossing over from one state to the other by observing the law/ striving to defeat their sin. Faith in Christ rather brings victory over the sin.
Now just as, many are uncomfortable with the idea faith in Christ is our righteousness for heaven, for they view That as a licence to sin. So many would also be uncomfortable with simply trusting Christ to deal with deep rooted sin when you get saved. They would think, surely the christian must strive to defeat the sin themselves/ observe the law. Look at the sin, focus on it, and determine to stop it.

So why did Paul not have such concerns?
Why did he not believe a righteousness of faith in Christ, was a licence to sin, and seeking justification by faith in Christ to defeat sin was not an excuse to sit on your backside and do nothing?

Because Paul was writing these comments to those who had chosen their master, they were born again Christians. Paul was writing these things to people who were ardent in their desire to follow God. Such people could never view Paul's message as a licence to sin, and sit back and be lazy, for they wanted nothing more than to obey God.

As Paul states:

Obedience comes from faith( in Christ) rom1:5

So I would say, the cooperation God requires of the Christian is to have faith in his son, from first to last.
For If you are looking to Christ in your heart and earnestly trusting him, you cannot at the same Time be seeking to wilfully indulge the flesh. It Is one or the other, it cannot be both at the same time

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm not offended, Stuart. People have to do the best they can in finding the Truth, with the help of God.

I would just be careful in assuming what people "seem to" believe and embrace, or not.

I'm not saying there are not lukewarm Orthodox - I'm sure there are. And if you know someone well in daily life, you may indeed be able to form a pretty informed opinion, if their words and actions contradict the faith, and they are not at all new to it, regardless of what kind of church they claim. But we must be careful.

I have met a few people who don't seem to do or say much that would make you think their faith had any real influence on them. But then if I happened to get to know them much better, I have (more than once!) found a rock-solid core to their faith that was fervently dedicated to God, despite their quietness and lack of show about it outwardly. I have especially found this within Orthodoxy, and even within persons who don't regularly attend Church.

So I have learned that we must be careful, very careful, in thinking we can know the heart of a person and what they believe and think, unless they share it with us. Those surprises taught me that.

I take your point, well put.
However, there is also the flipside to this.
I knew a woman who went to church. To see her in the service you would imagine she was the most Godly of women. Always turning up to all the meetings, immaculately and modestly dressed. She earnestly stressed we must obey the TC and if the minister said something during his sermon she heartily approved of she would call out AMEN.
She tithed her money and refrained from drinking any alcohol. And every evening she had prayers, bible reading and sang a couple of hymns with her children.

And yet, I found out This woman, outside of church frequently took the lords name in vain, laughing as she did so , and she had multiple affairs.
The excuse given was. No one is perfect, all sin is equal in Gods sight.

That is just one example

 

[~Anastasia~]

I take your point, well put.
However, there is also the flipside to this.
I knew a woman who went to church. To see her in the service you would imagine she was the most Godly of women. Always turning up to all the meetings, immaculately and modestly dressed. She earnestly stressed we must obey the TC and if the minister said something during his sermon she heartily approved of she would call out AMEN.
She tithed her money and refrained from drinking any alcohol. And every evening she had prayers, bible reading and sang a couple of hymns with her children.

And yet, I found out This woman, outside of church frequently took the lords name in vain, laughing as she did so , and she had multiple affairs.
The excuse given was. No one is perfect, all sin is equal in Gods sight.

That is just one example

I see your point. The opposite can certainly be true as well.

And while I can't know that woman's heart. Such behavior is really inconsistent and there is clearly a problem. It may be that some people, if they appear very pious in Church and not outside of it, are motivated by being seen as pious.

But of course God sees us ALL the time. And what is truly important is the heart. If someone puts on a show just to receive the "reward" of being seen as "holy" by others then they are doubly endangering themselves, because they mock God as well as build themselves up in pride based on the praise of men.

I actually hope something else was motivating her behavior.

Our hearts can certainly decieve us in so many ways, and can be "desperately wicked". Lord have mercy.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I see your point. The opposite can certainly be true as well.

And while I can't know that woman's heart. Such behavior is really inconsistent and there is clearly a problem. It may be that some people, if they appear very pious in Church and not outside of it, are motivated by being seen as pious.

But of course God sees us ALL the time. And what is truly important is the heart. If someone puts on a show just to receive the "reward" of being seen as "holy" by others then they are doubly endangering themselves, because they mock God as well as build themselves up in pride based on the praise of men.

I actually hope something else was motivating her behavior.

Our hearts can certainly decieve us in so many ways, and can be "desperately wicked". Lord have mercy.

I dont know if you would agree, but can a Christian sin in ignorance of the law written on their mind and placed on their heart?

I know under the old covenant, sacrifice was made for the people where sins of ignorance were concerned. However, this would not in my view have included the Ten Commandments, or any other law as written.
The law on stone/ TC got transferred onto tablets of human hearts( 2cor3:3)
How can someone not be aware they break law written in their mind?
This is not about anyone being better than anyone else, for we agree, each and every one of us falls short. But I dont personally believe you can sin in ignorance concerning the law on stone God desires you to keep placed within you.
Yet, the woman was very surprised when she was informed she was taking the Lords name in vain. She said she didn't know she was

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't think the Christian can claim ignorance, since the Christian is illumined by God. or rather, they can claim ignorance but it would not go over as, say, a pagan.

but as far as someone, since I cannot see their heart, I cannot claim anything about them. and with what passes as "Christianity" nowadays....

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't think the Christian can claim ignorance, since the Christian is illumined by God. or rather, they can claim ignorance but it would not go over as, say, a pagan.

but as far as someone, since I cannot see their heart, I cannot claim anything about them. and with what passes as "Christianity" nowadays....

When I was 21 I went out with someone in disobedience to God. We were intimate. I hardly attended church due to how I was living, and the very few times I did go, I could not even bring myself to join in the hymn singing, so great was my conscience as to how I was living.
All I can say is, if someone can have various affairs and enthusiastically turn up at church each week and heartily join in the service it I a Christianity frankly I dont understand. I know I could never do that.
I have never told anyone they are not a christian who claims to be one, even on the internet lol, only one has the right to judge I my view.
All I can say is, it is a form of Christianity I know nothing personally of

 

[ArmyMatt]

When I was 21 I went out with someone in disobedience to God. We were intimate. I hardly attended church due to how I was living, and the very few times I did go, I could not even bring myself to join in the hymn singing, so great was my conscience as to how I was living.
All I can say is, if someone can have various affairs and enthusiastically turn up at church each week and heartily join in the service it I a Christianity frankly I dont understand. I know I could never do that.
I have never told anyone they are not a christian who claims to be one, even on the internet lol, only one has the right to judge I my view.
All I can say is, it is a form of Christianity I know nothing personally of

yep, only One can truly judge man, and I ain't Him

 

[~Anastasia~]

My apologies - somehow I didn't get or missed notification to this thread. I wasn't ignoring you.

I will just check in later today, happened to wake up at 3am and had the thought I should check here, but I must sleep again so I can go to Church.

Good night, and again, my apologies.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I dont know if you would agree, but can a Christian sin in ignorance of the law written on their mind and placed on their heart?

I know under the old covenant, sacrifice was made for the people where sins of ignorance were concerned. However, this would not in my view have included the Ten Commandments, or any other law as written.
The law on stone/ TC got transferred onto tablets of human hearts( 2cor3:3)
How can someone not be aware they break law written in their mind?
This is not about anyone being better than anyone else, for we agree, each and every one of us falls short. But I dont personally believe you can sin in ignorance concerning the law on stone God desires you to keep placed within you.
Yet, the woman was very surprised when she was informed she was taking the Lords name in vain. She said she didn't know she was

Hi again, Stuart. Again, I am sorry for the delay. I seemed to lose several threads. Please forgive me. Though it seems we understand one another much better now, thank you.

I think the answer to your last question is that it depends.

Firstly on your definition of sin.

Since I think you mostly are referring to "breaking God's law" then that narrows it down quite a bit. Generally speaking, yes, I think people know when they are breaking God's law.

Although, remember how deceitful God says our hearts can be. I know one thing that can happen is a tendency to want to justify ourselves, so we might be tempted to choose verses that let us think we are not sinning. We have to be careful not to let others deceive us, but also not to delude ourselves. It does happen. When it does, people may indeed know deep down they are sinning, but are covering it up, and risk searing their conscience. But only God can truly know all the things in a person's mind and heart.

If you define sin as I said that I do - any missing of the mark, the goal or mark being Christ, then we sin constantly. And some we are aware of, and some not. But these are not necessarily "guilty sins" ... they are just "less than perfect" and it is to be expected. God will perfect us, but in this life, we struggle. I don't think that's what you mean, though.

Going back to just breaking the law ... sometimes there are nuances a person may not get, especially as a new Christian. Many don't realize, for example, that making a living the focus of your life, because you want to have money, can be a form of idolatry, or can spring from covetousness. Or being a little jealous of someone else getting the promotion you wanted might spring from covetousness. So I think it can be possible to sin in a less blatant way and not realize it, especially for those not as mature in the faith. But when God knows we are ready, He will show us, if we are open to Him.

But as for blatant sins, I do agree that people in general would normally have to know they are sinning.

I hope those thoughts made sense.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hi again, Stuart. Again, I am sorry for the delay. I seemed to lose several threads. Please forgive me. Though it seems we understand one another much better now, thank you.

I think the answer to your last question is that it depends.

Firstly on your definition of sin.

Since I think you mostly are referring to "breaking God's law" then that narrows it down quite a bit. Generally speaking, yes, I think people know when they are breaking God's law.

Although, remember how deceitful God says our hearts can be. I know one thing that can happen is a tendency to want to justify ourselves, so we might be tempted to choose verses that let us think we are not sinning. We have to be careful not to let others deceive us, but also not to delude ourselves. It does happen. When it does, people may indeed know deep down they are sinning, but are covering it up, and risk searing their conscience. But only God can truly know all the things in a person's mind and heart.

If you define sin as I said that I do - any missing of the mark, the goal or mark being Christ, then we sin constantly. And some we are aware of, and some not. But these are not necessarily "guilty sins" ... they are just "less than perfect" and it is to be expected. God will perfect us, but in this life, we struggle. I don't think that's what you mean, though.

Going back to just breaking the law ... sometimes there are nuances a person may not get, especially as a new Christian. Many don't realize, for example, that making a living the focus of your life, because you want to have money, can be a form of idolatry, or can spring from covetousness. Or being a little jealous of someone else getting the promotion you wanted might spring from covetousness. So I think it can be possible to sin in a less blatant way and not realize it, especially for those not as mature in the faith. But when God knows we are ready, He will show us, if we are open to Him.

But as for blatant sins, I do agree that people in general would normally have to know they are sinning.

I hope those thoughts made sense.

I would think that all sin can be covered by breaking Gods laws. My own view is, many appear not to understand what the law demands

IE

Many, many christians say they obey the TC. Indeed, many say they are not that difficult to keep. Yet, Paul termed those commands as:
The letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. Therefore, I think it is fair to say, Paul understood the full implications of what is entailed I obeying the TC, whereas many appear not to.
Though there I no specific command/ law not to get drunk, I would think that could be seen as breaking the first two commandments for example.
Under the OC sins were committed In ignorance, due to the fact, as you say we will always miss the mark. Any unkind thought/ word, comment. Any faliure to love all others, even those who slander and mistreat us Is missing the mark. We are not meant to ceaselessly come before God in repentance at being unable to attain sinless perfection. We are works in progress our whole lives.
However, in saying that, if we blatantly, as you say break one of the TC, I would think we must have a conscience we sin. Scripture specifically states that law is written on our minds and placed on our hearts.
Can a person be in ignorance of what is in their mind and on their heart? I dont believe they can be.
But I would repeat. This is not about anyone being better than anyone else, but rather, I believe the basis of the NC removes a licence to sin under grace, and also the possibility of sinning in ignorance concerning sin that God considered important enough to write on tablets of stone

 

[~Anastasia~]

You are probably right that all sin can be covered in the TC, if one is sensitive enough to them.

If nothing else, Christ's summation in the two greatest commandments certainly covers it all.

And I don't mean to suggest that we abjectly grovel like dogs before God at all times! But a constant awareness that we fall short of Christ, and indeed, a sorrowful acceptance of that truth, does much to keep us in humble dependence upon God, and make us ever-thankful for the mercy and forgiveness He has shown us, rather than allowing us to begin to be prideful at how "righteous" we might think we have become, because we perhaps no longer commit outward (or potentially even inward) sins, by the more legal definition of the term.

Does that make sense?

 

[~Anastasia~]

As to whether or not a person can possibly ignorant of what is written on their hearts, I'm not going to definitely say yes or no (depending on what is meant, I agree with you ).

I will ask this though? Did you ever know anyone - or yourself more likely, since people may not talk about it - but did you ever know of reaching a realization after a while that something is a sin, when before it didn't seem to bring conviction?

I'm trying to think of a good example, but maybe it's better to just ask?

 

[stuart lawrence]

As to whether or not a person can possibly ignorant of what is written on their hearts, I'm not going to definitely say yes or no (depending on what is meant, I agree with you ).

I will ask this though? Did you ever know anyone - or yourself more likely, since people may not talk about it - but did you ever know of reaching a realization after a while that something is a sin, when before it didn't seem to bring conviction?

I'm trying to think of a good example, but maybe it's better to just ask?

In relation to the TC, I would say I always knew, was conscious I committed sin if I broke them.
I believe God brings arrears of our lives to our attention that need change, one by one, for we are a work in progress all our lives, but I wouldn't view that as suddenly becoming conscious of sin. You may think according to the letter it is, but i wouldn't view it that way.
I suppose this I why it was so foreign to me( to put it mildly) to see people who go to church, have been baptised and earnestly say they want to follow Christ, laugh hysterically as they take the Lords name in vain, oblivious to the fact they are breaking one of the TC they repeatedly stress must be obeyed.
Its hard to emphasise just how far that is from the Christianity I have always known

 

[~Anastasia~]

In relation to the TC, I would say I always knew, was conscious I committed sin if I broke them.
I believe God brings arrears of our lives to our attention that need change, one by one, for we are a work in progress all our lives, but I wouldn't view that as suddenly becoming conscious of sin. You may think according to the letter it is, but i wouldn't view it that way.
I suppose this I why it was so foreign to me( to put it mildly) to see people who go to church, have been baptised and earnestly say they want to follow Christ, laugh hysterically as they take the Lords name in vain, oblivious to the fact they are breaking one of the TC they repeatedly stress must be obeyed.
Its hard to emphasise just how far that is from the Christianity I have always known

Well, I can't see into anyone's heart. If I saw a follower of Christ take the Lord's name in vain, then laugh hysterically over it - I would think there is something wrong. Maybe embarrassment at a habit they can't break, maybe some kind of language and/or emotional dysphoria, maybe some deep-seated issue, maybe .... I don't know what.

If that's a person's normal mode of operation and nothing is wrong with them, I would definitely be praying for them. I guess the rest depends on my relationship to the person.



I will also say that some have been taught different definitions for "taking the Lord's Name in vain". But personally, I tend to think even the more conservative thoughts on that are also correct, not that much of anything that anyone puts in that category being incorrect.

I can't judge a person though, especially one I've never met.

But talking about knowing if we are doing wrong, I think we tend to know, that's true.

I do believe we have the Holy Spirit Who guides us in many things. Unless we ignore Him, He helps us recognize various kinds of errors.

And even without being Christian, people the world over recognize basic morality. God has put that in the hearts of all people.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, I can't see into anyone's heart. If I saw a follower of Christ take the Lord's name in vain, then laugh hysterically over it - I would think there is something wrong. Maybe embarrassment at a habit they can't break, maybe some kind of language and/or emotional dysphoria, maybe some deep-seated issue, maybe .... I don't know what.

If that's a person's normal mode of operation and nothing is wrong with them, I would definitely be praying for them. I guess the rest depends on my relationship to the person.



I will also say that some have been taught different definitions for "taking the Lord's Name in vain". But personally, I tend to think even the more conservative thoughts on that are also correct, not that much of anything that anyone puts in that category being incorrect.

I can't judge a person though, especially one I've never met.

But talking about knowing if we are doing wrong, I think we tend to know, that's true.

I do believe we have the Holy Spirit Who guides us in many things. Unless we ignore Him, He helps us recognize various kinds of errors.

And even without being Christian, people the world over recognize basic morality. God has put that in the hearts of all people.

I honestly dont see it as trying to judge anyone. Nor am I speaking of anyone being better than anyone else. But if the law on stone got transferred onto tablets of human hearts( 2cor3:3) and written on the mind of the believer, how can they not know when the break that law/ commit sin?
How does being taught a particular definition of what constitutes taking the Lords name in vain come into this? If God has written law in your mind, you in your mind must surely know what that law is. And if it is placed on your heart, you surely must have heartfelt conviction you sin when you break it.
Shouldn't that spiritual truth override everything, or anything else?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I honestly dont see it as trying to judge anyone. Nor am I speaking of anyone being better than anyone else. But if the law on stone got transferred onto tablets of human hearts( 2cor3:3) and written on the mind of the believer, how can they not know when the break that law/ commit sin?
How does being taught a particular definition of what constitutes taking the Lords name in vain come into this? If God has written law in your mind, you in your mind must surely know what that law is. And if it is placed on your heart, you surely must have heartfelt conviction you sin when you break it.
Shouldn't that spiritual truth override everything, or anything else?

Well, ok, honestly, I added the part about different teachings because I'm not sure exactly what you might mean, but to be honest, I don't want to ask.

I suspect you probably mean the usual kind of thing though. And no, I can't understand why or how a Christian would do this.

My husband for example raises an eyebrow when I say, "Thank God!" but I REALLY MEAN "thanks be to the Lord God Almighty!" when I say that. I don't casually mention God in any way unless I mean it. I don't like to hear "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" for example, but many Christians are pretty oblivious.

And I didn't mean to imply that you were judging the woman. That would be me judging you, somewhat. But I mean only that I try to be careful to stay out of assigning guilt for anything, especially given that I usually don't know the motives and intent.


ETA: wow, I did not think they would bless and do not curse that! It was a common three-letter internet-ese (like LOL) except it means "oh my ***"

 

[~Anastasia~]

And I agree that heartfelt conviction should be our guide, and that should be above everything. Essentially, I actually agree I think with all you've said in the topic, except that it does seem that we don't always have a full revelation from the very beginning.

But, I don't know what's in anyone else's heart. So I don't know if they haven't gotten the revelation, or if they are justifying some behavior because they want or think they need to, or they've seared their conscience, or they are uncomfortable but ignoring that discomfort for now, or some other possible situation.

I only know myself.

I'll share something with you then. I'm not sure I can explain this, but it was very profound for me.

Don't get me wrong - I'm very blessed. My basic needs are met, I have a couple of family members nearby, I love my parish community, I enjoy painting and growing things and I have what I need to be able to do that, I have a most awesome little cat - in short I could go on, but I wanted to preface what I'm about to share by saying I AM very blessed.

But I know lots of people who live in nice houses, who get to take vacations and go on cruises, who buy their clothes new, who don't view tires wearing out as a major financial crisis. And so on.

When I was baptized, an understanding settled on me over the first few days. I saw that I had a sort of sense of deprivation, because my situation wasn't comparable to the people around me.

I'm very grieved by my whole former mindset now, but I realized quite suddenly that my whole life was colored by covetousness. Not that I went around drooling over and wishing for what others had, but I didn't truly rejoice for their blessings and they often only made me aware of my lack.

And it broke my heart that it was such a pervasive thing in my life. It was like covetousness was the very air I breathed, and so I was living in sin, in a way, in violation of one of the Ten Commandments, no less.

A week before I was baptized, that thought would have been impossible for me to recognize, I think.

That was a while back, and thank God, I now recognize how deeply blessed I am, and I can certainly rejoice for whatever someone else has. My brother and his fiancée completed an Ironman together while I was dealing with cancer. That's probably the biggest gap between me and someone else to intrude in my life recently, and thankfully - I am nothing but proud of him and happy for them! can equally happy for whatever good happens to whoever else, without that twinge of hurt wishing in even a small way it could be me, glory to God. I couldn't have changed that on my own.

But my real point is that to me, it was a HUGE SIN, because it permeated my life, and yet I was blind to it shortly before. And I know the Ten Commandments, and have been seeking God most of my life, many years. And I knew what coveting was - directly desiring to have something belonging to someone else - and was careful not to let myself think that way.

But I learned that just the heart behind it was also covetousness, or even more so than simple acts of coveting, which I had been careful to avoid. Instead I became covetousness, without realizing it. That generated some deep repentance. And thank God, He changed me as a result.

This wasn't easy to explain, because it's more an internal realization and not a direct act or even thought, but I hope it made sense.

And I think God's law was already written on my heart, of course - yet I honestly did not recognize how I was violating that. I chose "violate" purposely, rather than "break" ... I would also say that I had previously kept the letter of that law pretty well, but the spirit had apparently eluded me.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, ok, honestly, I added the part about different teachings because I'm not sure exactly what you might mean, but to be honest, I don't want to ask.

I suspect you probably mean the usual kind of thing though. And no, I can't understand why or how a Christian would do this.

My husband for example raises an eyebrow when I say, "Thank God!" but I REALLY MEAN "thanks be to the Lord God Almighty!" when I say that. I don't casually mention God in any way unless I mean it. I don't like to hear "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" for example, but many Christians are pretty oblivious.

And I didn't mean to imply that you were judging the woman. That would be me judging you, somewhat. But I mean only that I try to be careful to stay out of assigning guilt for anything, especially given that I usually don't know the motives and intent.


ETA: wow, I did not think they would bless and do not curse that! It was a common three-letter internet-ese (like LOL) except it means "oh my ***"

The phrase continually used was o m g. It wasn't being used in connection to thanking God for anything.
The people this is concerning are members of a non mainstream christian denomination.
My theory is, the denomination follows the written code/ not the Holy Spirit(rom7:6)

But to continue this would be to go beyond the remit of what the thread concerns