Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[~Anastasia~]

Remember, the new covenant hinges on TWO core points.
Never underestimate the importance of what the first part does/ achieves:

I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more( for the christians righteousness is faith in Christ)
Heb10:16&17

Truthfully, and you may not like to hear this, I find your focus to be too narrow, and overly legalistic.

Your entire focus is only on sins and the law? That is part of our salvation, but that is certainly not all of it. It is something the West began to overemphasize and through this, they lost sight of the true majesty of what God's love would do in us!

We were created in the image and likeness of God. Through sin, we fell from that state of grace, and death entered the world, sin began to pervert our nature, and the image of God was marred in us.

God doesn't want to just wipe out a debt. God wants to RESTORE us to His original plan for us - and He will.

We are to be made like Christ, healed of our sinful nature, not have it just covered over so that God doesn't have to look at it anymore.

The word for save - σῴζω - implies healing as a part of salvation.

The Scriptures are full of passages that speak of what our salvation will include.


And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Cor 3:18)

By which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (2 Pet 1:4)

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. (Eph 4:22-24)

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27)

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(Rom 8:29)

My little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! (Gal 4:19)

That I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. (Phil 3:10-11)

 

[~Anastasia~]

We cannot be mad at Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox for wanting to continue the model the Apostles employed.

Indeed.

The parents said to the children, "Food will be on the table every night - please come to the dinner table and eat! We provide this for you because we love you!"

One of the children gets in a fight with his brothers and decides to sit on the porch instead, refusing to enter the house. His parents, out of love, take his dinner out to the porch so that he can still eat.

That doesn't mean that the parents don't still want their children to sit at the table and share dinner together, in the way they have decided dinner should happen.

But who knows, if the child decides to spurn his brothers and live on the porch, maybe the parents will start taking his dinner to him out there all the time. That doesn't mean the child on the porch ought to mock the children who still sit at table and eat with their parents in peace every night, as the parents have decided to carry out family meals. And it might very well mean that he misses out on some wonderful things that happen during the family meals, but doesn't even realize it.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'd point out that most Lutherans do not reject episcopal succession, we just do not see it as the esse or essential being of the Church. Some Lutheran churches do have bishops, even bishops who function exactly the same as in the Orthodox church. Episcopacy is not something that German Lutherans just idly threw away out of spite. The Lutheran Reformation was a bottom-up reformation in Germany, and most of Germany's bishops were aligned with Rome.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Truthfully, and you may not like to hear this, I find your focus to be too narrow, and overly legalistic.

Your entire focus is only on sins and the law? That is part of our salvation, but that is certainly not all of it. It is something the West began to overemphasize and through this, they lost sight of the true majesty of what God's love would do in us!

We were created in the image and likeness of God. Through sin, we fell from that state of grace, and death entered the world, sin began to pervert our nature, and the image of God was marred in us.

God doesn't want to just wipe out a debt. God wants to RESTORE us to His original plan for us - and He will.

We are to be made like Christ, healed of our sinful nature, not have it just covered over so that God doesn't have to look at it anymore.

The word for save - σῴζω - implies healing as a part of salvation.

The Scriptures are full of passages that speak of what our salvation will include.


And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Cor 3:18)

By which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (2 Pet 1:4)

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. (Eph 4:22-24)

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27)

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(Rom 8:29)

My little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! (Gal 4:19)

That I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. (Phil 3:10-11)

My main focus is indeed on the foundation upon which Christianity stands, especially here in debating forums. I can understand why some would want to refer to this as being legalistic. As Jesus said. Build on the correct foundation or your house will collapse

 

[stuart lawrence]

In any sense at all, if one is a Christian, they must surrender their lives to Christ.

But yes, I agree.


What individuals?

And how do you know that an individual doesn't understand Christianity? How do you know they have not made a commitment in their heart to Christ? How do you know they are just going through the motions?


Again, I almost - almost - have to smile at this. I was much more "comfortable" going to my contemporary worship services, enjoying the music, getting a motivational sermon, sitting down while listening, letting the pastor do all the "work", then coming home to a faith that, while I loved God, didn't demand a whole lot from me in terms of any discipline.

Some people think I go to hours-long services, stand on my feet, sing and pray most of the service, fast, pray, and apply myself as diligently as I'm able, seek to be ever mindful of Christ and take every thought captive to Him, pray without ceasing ... because I'm seeking to be "comfortable"? Just a funny little irony.

The Apostle Paul himself stated, many have a form of Godliness while denying its power.

I could give you many, many examples, but I wont, as you seem dismissive of the idea

 

[stuart lawrence]

Taken to an extreme, some might understand your words to mean that you think we should have faith in Christ, and then go out and sin all we might want.

Some might, but not anyone who has surrendered their life to Christ for they have chosen their master.

Some might, but not those who in their heart truly love God. For no one wilfully seeks to offend the one they love.

Some might, but not those truly born again of the Spirit, that is not possible.

Some might, if they only sought a form of comfort from religion, not a personal relationship with God through Christ.

So I understand your point that some might

 

[stuart lawrence]

Indeed.

The parents said to the children, "Food will be on the table every night - please come to the dinner table and eat! We provide this for you because we love you!"

One of the children gets in a fight with his brothers and decides to sit on the porch instead, refusing to enter the house. His parents, out of love, take his dinner out to the porch so that he can still eat.

That doesn't mean that the parents don't still want their children to sit at the table and share dinner together, in the way they have decided dinner should happen.

But who knows, if the child decides to spurn his brothers and live on the porch, maybe the parents will start taking his dinner to him out there all the time. That doesn't mean the child on the porch ought to mock the children who still sit at table and eat with their parents in peace every night, as the parents have decided to carry out family meals. And it might very well mean that he misses out on some wonderful things that happen during the family meals, but doesn't even realize it.

So I will also ask you.
Does your priest anoint with oil for peoples healing?
If he does, does he see miracles of healing to the degree the evangelist I mentioned saw them?
If not, why not?

But I will repeat again. I have NOT said it is wrong to anoint with oil, simply it is not necessary to do so to receive healing, as huge numbers can testify to, and as Christ, peter and Paul would testify to.
I have not said one should not be baptised or partake of communion either, they should
But should sacraments be the central point, the most important part of a christians walk? NO!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Some pray for no more than five minutes a day, but make sacraments the centre of their Christianity.
Others pray for an hour a day, but dont make sacraments the main focus of their Christianity, but they still got baptised in water and partake of communion.

Which of these two types of people will come closest to God?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Indeed.

The parents said to the children, "Food will be on the table every night - please come to the dinner table and eat! We provide this for you because we love you!"

One of the children gets in a fight with his brothers and decides to sit on the porch instead, refusing to enter the house. His parents, out of love, take his dinner out to the porch so that he can still eat.

That doesn't mean that the parents don't still want their children to sit at the table and share dinner together, in the way they have decided dinner should happen.

But who knows, if the child decides to spurn his brothers and live on the porch, maybe the parents will start taking his dinner to him out there all the time. That doesn't mean the child on the porch ought to mock the children who still sit at table and eat with their parents in peace every night, as the parents have decided to carry out family meals. And it might very well mean that he misses out on some wonderful things that happen during the family meals, but doesn't even realize it.

So Anastasia

What is your righteousness before God/ in his sight, from first to last, for the whole of your Christian life?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Indeed.

The parents said to the children, "Food will be on the table every night - please come to the dinner table and eat! We provide this for you because we love you!"

One of the children gets in a fight with his brothers and decides to sit on the porch instead, refusing to enter the house. His parents, out of love, take his dinner out to the porch so that he can still eat.

That doesn't mean that the parents don't still want their children to sit at the table and share dinner together, in the way they have decided dinner should happen.

But who knows, if the child decides to spurn his brothers and live on the porch, maybe the parents will start taking his dinner to him out there all the time. That doesn't mean the child on the porch ought to mock the children who still sit at table and eat with their parents in peace every night, as the parents have decided to carry out family meals. And it might very well mean that he misses out on some wonderful things that happen during the family meals, but doesn't even realize it.

A great analogy for those who wont accept their righteousness before God, from first to last, the whole of their christian life is faith in Christ

 

[abacabb3]

I'd point out that most Lutherans do not reject episcopal succession, we just do not see it as the esse or essential being of the Church. Some Lutheran churches do have bishops, even bishops who function exactly the same as in the Orthodox church. Episcopacy is not something that German Lutherans just idly threw away out of spite. The Lutheran Reformation was a bottom-up reformation in Germany, and most of Germany's bishops were aligned with Rome.

This would have meant they lost apostolic succession, right?

 

[~Anastasia~]

My main focus is indeed on the foundation upon which Christianity stands, especially here in debating forums. I can understand why some would want to refer to this as being legalistic. As Jesus said. Build on the correct foundation or your house will collapse

This has nothing to do with my post.

If your focus is truly upon the foundation, why are you dismissing what I said, which is the greatest part of our salvation?

 

[~Anastasia~]

The Apostle Paul himself stated, many have a form of Godliness while denying its power.

I could give you many, many examples, but I wont, as you seem dismissive of the idea

Some might, but not anyone who has surrendered their life to Christ for they have chosen their master.

Some might, but not those who in their heart truly love God. For no one wilfully seeks to offend the one they love.

Some might, but not those truly born again of the Spirit, that is not possible.

Some might, if they only sought a form of comfort from religion, not a personal relationship with God through Christ.

So I understand your point that some might

Some pray for no more than five minutes a day, but make sacraments the centre of their Christianity.
Others pray for an hour a day, but dont make sacraments the main focus of their Christianity, but they still got baptised in water and partake of communion.

Which of these two types of people will come closest to God?

Some might, some might, some might ....

All you are saying is that some people are lukewarm.

Yes that's true. There are lukewarm people in all sorts of denominations.

That has nothing to do with our discussion, unless you are saying that following the way established by the Apostles, in a Sacramental Church = lukewarmness.

In which case I disagree with you that they are equivalent, and which would also indicate you either don't understand or have chosen to dismiss everything I've said.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So Anastasia

What is your righteousness before God/ in his sight, from first to last, for the whole of your Christian life?

My righteousness before God is found in Christ alone, as I told you pages back, and have explained many times.

 

[stuart lawrence]

This has nothing to do with my post.

If your focus is truly upon the foundation, why are you dismissing what I said, which is the greatest part of our salvation?

Repent, ask the son of God into your life as your lord and saviour, believing he died for your sins, and you are saved.
As Paul states, by grace through faith

 

[stuart lawrence]

My righteousness before God is found in Christ alone, as I told you pages back, and have explained many times.

You couldn't quite bring yourself to give the biblical words as to what your righteousness is.
However, it is good you stated what you did.
But I everyday life, do you actually believe it?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Some might, some might, some might ....

All you are saying is that some people are lukewarm.

Yes that's true. There are lukewarm people in all sorts of denominations.

That has nothing to do with our discussion, unless you are saying that following the way established by the Apostles, in a Sacramental Church = lukewarmness.

In which case I disagree with you that they are equivalent, and which would also indicate you either don't understand or have chosen to dismiss everything I've said.

How many times did Paul stress sacraments?
Only a few, compared to his core gospel message.
That SHOULD put things in their proper perspective

 

[stuart lawrence]

Some might, some might, some might ....

All you are saying is that some people are lukewarm.

Yes that's true. There are lukewarm people in all sorts of denominations.

That has nothing to do with our discussion, unless you are saying that following the way established by the Apostles, in a Sacramental Church = lukewarmness.

In which case I disagree with you that they are equivalent, and which would also indicate you either don't understand or have chosen to dismiss everything I've said.

Anyone can partake of sacraments many of the mafia do.
The more important matter is how much of your life you yield from the heart to God.
And a more important matter than stressing sacraments is understanding the foundation of the covenant Christ died to usher in, and believing it

 

[stuart lawrence]

Let me repeat in BOLD letters, as it seems not to have been noticed.

I BELIEVE EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD BE BAPTISED IN WATER AND PARTAKE OF COMUNION

Hopefully I wont be accused of what I have never said.

 

[stuart lawrence]

My righteousness before God is found in Christ alone, as I told you pages back, and have explained many times.

So let me ask you a simple question.
Do you believe your righteousness is faith In
Christ, from first to last, the whole of your christian life?