Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[~Anastasia~]

I would definitely want to see the Atonement column for Orthodox changed. I hesitate to know what to put there that wouldn't be misunderstood though. I like your suggestion, Matt, for Incarnation to go there, but I did a quick look to see and it seems that if anyone googles it, the term might lead to further misunderstanding? I'm not sure if there is an official theory put forth that I'm missing? If you meant it as an encapsulation, and not a formal theory, then I'm in agreement there too. But I wouldn't doubt from a quick look around if that might not mean something else in terms of an official theory at some point in future.

Anyway - Christ accomplished much through His Incarnation, death and resurrection. While there are elements of truth in essentially all theories (PSA being rather limited in it though), none are sufficient to fully explain ALL that Christ accomplished. Some are much more important to Orthodoxy. I should say this too - I wonder if it's even taught in those terms. I'm trying to remember if I've discussed with a priest or seminarian yet who discussed it in those terms. However, in reading myself, I would be especially unwilling to exclude either Christus Victor or Recapitulation. But again, the others have elements of truth as well. That becomes a HUGE question, and I sense you're trying to narrow things down, but the reality is that Orthodoxy tends to broaden in this area, IMO.

I certainly welcome correction. I have studied a very great deal, at times 8-16 hours a day (for the sake of honesty, at times barely any at all), but even for that I am only a few years into Orthodoxy, so I must say that for some time to come (maybe always, lol) I would prefer to submit anything I say for correction. Orthodoxy tends to be something that seeps in over years, I think, and is much more than a set of theological principles. Much, much more.

Wow, all that over ONE point! Sorry!

I could have comments on many parts, but at least that one is what I would have the most to say about it. As I said, you've introduced a lot of good points for discussion that could go on for some time.

I was going to comment on more, but I'll save it for now. Just that one word created a book here. Sorry about that.

 

[abacabb3]

how I would tweek it

atonement - Incarnation

How is that different than recapitulation?

justification upon conversion - N/A

Is the issue with the word conversion? What I am trying to say that upon belief/baptism/baptism by desire one enters into relationship with God and is "justified" in the sense that the Scripture speaks of Abraham's justification (which, coming out of Protestantism is how we use the term "justified).

Chrysostom speaks of being suddenly righteous upon belief by faith alone:

He does also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is declaring, that he has added, That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith: and shun not the righteousness of God (Homily 7 on Romans).

So does Cyril of Jerusalem:

Oh the great loving-kindness of God! For the righteous were many years in pleasing Him: but what they succeeded in gaining by many years of well-pleasing , this Jesus now bestows on you in a single hour. For if you shall believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved, and shall be transported into Paradise by Him who brought in there the robber. And doubt not whether it is possible; for He who on this sacred Golgotha saved the robber after one single hour of belief, the same shall save you also on your believing (Catechetical Lecture 5, Chap 10).

I just want to make sure I can understand what you mean so I can translate what you say into something that works with my thought patterns

justification after conversion - must have works that flow from faith

Duly noted, I will change soon with this.

sanctification - becoming by grace what God is by nature over eternity. ever growing in His likeness.

Is this the same as justification, we are being justified?

Thanks!

 

[abacabb3]

I would definitely want to see the Atonement column ...

What's wrong with recapitulation as it is explained by Ireaeus?
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia

Christ redeems man by becoming man, by living a perfect life, by conquering death, undoing what was lost by Adam and restoring us fully as the image of God, which has been diminished by sin.

Any other points you have are appreciated. Being that the table is condensed, it will miss a lot of nuance.

 

[ArmyMatt]

How is that different than recapitulation?

maybe nothing, I just think the Incarnation is better for our view of atonement

Is the issue with the word conversion? What I am trying to say that upon belief/baptism/baptism by desire one enters into relationship with God and is "justified" in the sense that the Scripture speaks of Abraham's justification (which, coming out of Protestantism is how we use the term "justified).

Chrysostom speaks of being suddenly righteous upon belief by faith alone:

He does also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores of sin suddenly righteous. And it is to explain this, viz. what is declaring, that he has added, That He might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Doubt not then: for it is not of works, but of faith: and shun not the righteousness of God (Homily 7 on Romans).

So does Cyril of Jerusalem:

Oh the great loving-kindness of God! For the righteous were many years in pleasing Him: but what they succeeded in gaining by many years of well-pleasing , this Jesus now bestows on you in a single hour. For if you shall believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved, and shall be transported into Paradise by Him who brought in there the robber. And doubt not whether it is possible; for He who on this sacred Golgotha saved the robber after one single hour of belief, the same shall save you also on your believing (Catechetical Lecture 5, Chap 10).

I just want to make sure I can understand what you mean so I can translate what you say into something that works with my thought patterns

I think it's just that we don't divide or distinguish between justification at conversion by faith, and what happens after. it's a never ending process by which we grow in Christ. I think we would only have justification, which begins at a personal conversion by faith, but is not distinct from the walk of faith that happens later.

Duly noted, I will change soon with this.

cool beans

Is this the same as justification, we are being justified?

yep

 

[abacabb3]

I think it's just that we don't divide or distinguish between justification at conversion by faith, and what happens after. it's a never ending process by which we grow in Christ. I think we would only have justification, which begins at a personal conversion by faith, but is not distinct from the walk of faith that happens later.

Would it be okay to keep it as is so the Eastern view can be communicated given the Protestant paradigm? I know it is slavishly chronological, but would it do injustice to the eastern position?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Would it be okay to keep it as is so the Eastern view can be communicated given the Protestant paradigm? I know it is slavishly chronological, but would it do injustice to the eastern position?

no, I think that is fine. just make sure on there that you clarify that we do not divide them up.

 

[abacabb3]

no, I think that is fine. just make sure on there that you clarify that we do not divide them up.

ok, will do

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, here is an excerpt from a newly translated (into English) book "The Field", regarding the place of faith in salvation and how faith relates to keeping Christ's commandments.
“Repent, and believe in the gospel”, we are told by the Gospel. What a simple, true, and holy command! We must repent, leave behind our sinful life, before we become capable of approaching the Gospels. In order to accept the Gospel, we have to believe in it.

The Apostle Paul considered the essence of the preaching of Christ to be the message of repentance and faith. He testified to everyone, both Jew and Gentiles of, “repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Gospel, as the revelation of God, is higher than any achievement, remaining inconceivable for fallen human reason. The inconceivable wisdom of God is only conceived by faith, because faith can accept everything that is impossible for reason and that even contradicts reason. Only the soul that willfully rejects sin and directs all of its willpower and strength to divine good is capable of faith.

“I have come as a light into the world,” said the Lord. This light came to the Jews clothed in flesh; before us, he stands clothed in the Gospels.

This light comes before us, “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.”

Who does not believe in the Son of God? Not only he who openly, assuredly rejects Him but also he who, while calling himself a Christian, leads a sinful life, rushes around after pleasures of the world, whose god is his stomach, whose god is gold and silver, whose god is earthly glory, who honors earthly wisdom, antagonistic to God, as god himself. “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God”

Without self-denial a person is not capable of faith; his fallen reason fights against faith, demanding an answer of God in all His actions and proof of His revealed truths. The fallen heart wants to live the life of the fallen, which faith strives to mortify. Flesh and blood, ignoring the constant presence of death all around it, wants to live its own life – the life of death and sin.

This is why the Lord told all who desire to follow Him with living faith: “If any one desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”

The fall has become so assimilated to the essence of all mankind that rejection of the fall has become tantamount to rejection of our very life. Without such self-denial it is impossible to acquire faith, which is the pledge of eternal, blessed, spiritual life. Whoever wants to enliven the passions of his heart or body and to gain pleasure from them, whoever wants to enliven his fallen reason, he will fall away from faith.

Living faith is walking into the spiritual world, the world of God. It cannot exist in a person who is nailed to the cross of the world, ruled by flesh and sin.

Faith is the door to God. There is no other door to him: “without faith it is impossible to please [God].” This door opens only slowly before the one who purifies himself with constant repentance; it is open widely only before the pure heart; it is shut for the lover of sin.

Only through faith can one approach Christ; only through faith can one follow Christ.

Faith is a natural quality of the human soul, planted in man at the creation by the merciful God. This natural quality is chosen by God during the course of redemption as the branch through which to graft grace back onto fallen man.

God wisely chose faith as the tool of mankind’s salvation, for we perished by believing the flattery of the enemy of God and mankind. A long time ago, the noise of his evil words was heard in Eden, and our forefathers listened and believed, and were cast out of Eden. Now, in the land of our exile, their descendants hear the voice of the Word of God, the Gospels, and once again those who listen and believe in it can enter paradise.

You who do not believe! Turn away from your lack of faith! Sinner! Reject your sinful life! Wise man! Deny your false wisdom! Turn to God! With your goodness and lack of evil, you will become like children, and with childlike simplicity you will believe in the Gospel.

Dead faith, or confessing Christ merely out of unwilling necessity, is something that the demons are capable of! Such a faith will only add to a person’s greater condemnation at the judgment of Christ. The unclean spirit cried out to the Lord: “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did you come to destroy us? I know who You are – the Holy One of God!” Faith in the Gospels must be living; one must believe with the mind and the heart, confess the faith with one’s lips, and express and prove it with one’s life. “Show me your faith without your works!” Thus, the Apostle James addresses the one who boasts of his dead faith, with only the bare knowledge of the existence of God.

“Faith”, said St Simeon the New Theologian, “in the full sense of this word contains in itself all of the divine commandments of Christ. It is stamped with the assuredness, that there is not a single part of the commandments that has no meaning, that all of them, until the very last iota, are the life and reason for eternal life.” -- St Ignatius Brianchaninov

Your book errs badly!


But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us ALIVE with Christ, EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:4&5

I doubt the author of your book sees grace quite the way Paul did

 

[FireDragon76]

"A neverending process". That actually fits with the Lutheran denial of sinless perfection in this life. We don't have some kind of belief in sinless perfection, like in Methodism or the Holiness churches. Sin has too great a hold on us, in our theology. Justification gives us the promise that our "medical condition" of sin will one day be cured, in the next world.

We do believe and confess "the new obedience" which occurs after justification, in fact this is in the Augsburg Confession, our earliest distinctly Lutheran confession. But this obedience is never perfect in this life, and failure does not overturn the grace of justification.

I actually believe Lutheranism is less juridical in tone than the Reformed tradition, since we also have a metaphysical understanding of salvation (though it is not as elaborate as the Orthodox understanding), one of the reasons the Reformed could not see eye to eye with us about the Eucharist, as we believe Jesus Christ is truly present in the sacrament in a physical way. We just have the juridical understanding leading the way in terms of our preaching.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Your book errs badly!


But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us ALIVE with Christ, EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:4&5

I doubt the author of your book sees grace quite the way Paul did

Again, I think you misunderstand. As I said, you won't find Scripture we don't agree with.

The book was written for a particular audience, seeking a particular kind of answer. To be honest, I think most fathers would not agree with most who are within their first couple of years in the Church reading it, due to the great risk of misunderstanding or misapplication.

Basically, the quote can be distilled down to say that one cannot purposely pursue a sinful life and at the same time claim that his faith is saving him.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, I think you misunderstand. As I said, you won't find Scripture we don't agree with.

The book was written for a particular audience, seeking a particular kind of answer. To be honest, I think most fathers would not agree with most who are within their first couple of years in the Church reading it, due to the great risk of misunderstanding or misapplication.

Basically, the quote can be distilled down to say that one cannot purposely pursue a ith life and at the same time claim that his faith is saving him.

I'm sorry, but This time I must disagree with you.
The excerpt from the book is not compatible with Eh2:5

 

[FireDragon76]

Basically, the quote can be distilled down to say that one cannot purposely pursue a sinful life and at the same time claim that his faith is saving him.

What does this even mean? I've encountered situations in Orthodoxy where basically the attitude is that forgiveness is granted to the "properly" repentant, with those whose lifestyles don't match up to narrow standards of respectability not "properly" repentant.

You see, this is really the crux of things, where Luther really got irked. If grace is granted only to the properly repentant, then we have no assurance of our acceptance by God. I mean, there's no end to the possible questions we could have about our own salvation. Live that way long enough, and your moral universe could collapse, or you could go insane.

As my pastor says, Jesus came for the least, the lost, and the last. God has a prefential love for the sick, the anxious, the fearful. The healthy do not need a physician. If we tailor the Gospel for those that are proud, healthy, confident, we actually cheapen God's Law (which is ironic given that Lutherans are accussed of being lazy Christians so often). Lutherans just know how hopeless our spiritual state is, so we are encouraged to own up to being sinners, to sinning boldly by trusting in Christ alone to be our Savior.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Your book errs badly!


But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us ALIVE with Christ, EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgressions, it is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:4&5

I doubt the author of your book sees grace quite the way Paul did

where is the contradiction?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, I think you misunderstand. As I said, you won't find Scripture we don't agree with.

The book was written for a particular audience, seeking a particular kind of answer. To be honest, I think most fathers would not agree with most who are within their first couple of years in the Church reading it, due to the great risk of misunderstanding or misapplication.

Basically, the quote can be distilled down to say that one cannot purposely pursue a sinful life and at the same time claim that his faith is saving him.

Living faith cannot exist in a person ruled by the flesh and sin?

Only the soul that directs its willpower and strength to divine good is capable of faith??


When we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly
Rom5:6

You come as a child with nothing, no strength to set yourself free.
You are accepted even when you are DEAD IN SIN.

What newborn baby makes itself grow?
It is totally reliant on its parents for growth.
If a baby was capable of rationalising its own needs it would simply trust in its parents for growth.
So must new born christians.

The christian has to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness, Thi takes TIME.

This crossing over I achieved by faith in Christ, NOT observing the law!!!( not committing sin) by your willpower and strength


Gal2:15-17

 

[stuart lawrence]

In the vast majority of churches in the UK the core membership is mostly made up of people who come from loving, secure homes
Such people are far more likely to come from the more affluent half of society, and the more intellectually gifted half.
Statistically speaking they are also far more likely not to have spent a life Tim in affairs, or been in prison, have problems with alcohol, use much bad language or smoke.
This is not always the case by any means, but far more likely.
Preach a watered down message and get watered down results

 

[stuart lawrence]

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes EVIDENT that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

Could someone do an exegesis of the above scripture please?

 

[~Anastasia~]

What does this even mean? I've encountered situations in Orthodoxy where basically the attitude is that forgiveness is granted to the "properly" repentant, with those whose lifestyles don't match up to narrow standards of respectability not "properly" repentant.

I think I know what you are asking here.

We cannot insist on our own way in major issues, and ask for the grace of God upon our lives.

A person who is same-sex attracted, for example, who is not even trying to be celibate, cannot come to Church and claim that he should be allowed to continue in his activity, without repentance or remorse, and at the same time seek to receive the blessing of the priest to do so, and choose which parts of the beliefs of the Church he will respect.

Of course, he CAN come to Church, and he can ask for prayer, pastoral counseling, what have you. He can fail through weakness, though he tries not to, and receive absolution. But he cannot simply insist that his choice to be sexually active be blessed.

You see, this is really the crux of things, where Luther really got irked. If grace is granted only to the properly repentant, then we have no assurance of our acceptance by God. I mean, there's no end to the possible questions we could have about our own salvation. Live that way long enough, and your moral universe could collapse, or you could go insane.

As my pastor says, Jesus came for the least, the lost, and the last. God has a prefential love for the sick, the anxious, the fearful. The healthy do not need a physician. If we tailor the Gospel for those that are proud, healthy, confident, we actually cheapen God's Law (which is ironic given that Lutherans are accussed of being lazy Christians so often). Lutherans just know how hopeless our spiritual state is, so we are encouraged to own up to being sinners, to sinning boldly by trusting in Christ alone to be our Savior.

Orthodox certainly are encouraged to know that we are weak, sick, broken, what have you. We know we have need of a physician, and no real righteousness of our own.

I've never particularly agreed with the idea of "sinning boldly" as some kind of test for God's grace, as some interpret it. And St. Paul is quite adamant that we should not do so.

Perhaps that's not what Luther meant, and perhaps that's not what you mean. But some mean it that way, and I must disagree.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Living faith cannot exist in a person ruled by the flesh and sin?

Only the soul that directs its willpower and strength to divine good is capable of faith??


When we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly
Rom5:6

You come as a child with nothing, no strength to set yourself free.
You are accepted even when you are DEAD IN SIN.

What newborn baby makes itself grow?
It is totally reliant on its parents for growth.
If a baby was capable of rationalising its own needs it would simply trust in its parents for growth.
So must new born christians.

The christian has to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness, Thi takes TIME.

This crossing over I achieved by faith in Christ, NOT observing the law!!!( not committing sin) by your willpower and strength


Gal2:15-17

Faith is the gift of God. (That is mentioned too in the book excerpt you object to.) All men are given a measure of it. We do not believe, as Calvin taught, that only some people have the possibility of salvation.

But if we purposely set our wills to follow the desires of our flesh, and in no way incline our hearts to cooperate with God, that faith we all are initially gifted with will not save us. It cannot grow. It will be dead faith.

Even the demons believe, and tremble. But they do not have the kind of faith that saves.

Salvation is a cooperation between God and man. God does His part. He gave us all the initial deposit allowing us to be saved. Christ became Incarnate, was crucified and resurrected, for us and for our salvation. And God not only draws us, but will respond to any movement on our part.

But we have a responsibility too. We cannot just claim that faith God initially instilled, that work Christ has done, and then decide that is enough and we will fill our bellies, party all night, own whatever delights our eyes, and fulfill all lusts of the flesh - and then think we have "saving faith". If we expect that, we deceive ourselves.

Yes, it takes time. And God understands that, and knows the heart of each man. That is why He, and He alone, may judge us. But what I said just before is also still true.

Maybe the context is the problem. I believe you are a sincere person, you know the Scriptures, and are zealous for the truth. But you seem to take an understanding from what is being said that is not the true meaning. I can applaud your thoroughness and concerns, but you really do take me by surprise what you get out of the few things being said here. So maybe it's context.

 

[~Anastasia~]

In the vast majority of churches in the UK the core membership is mostly made up of people who come from loving, secure homes
Such people are far more likely to come from the more affluent half of society, and the more intellectually gifted half.
Statistically speaking they are also far more likely not to have spent a life Tim in affairs, or been in prison, have problems with alcohol, use much bad language or smoke.
This is not always the case by any means, but far more likely.
Preach a watered down message and get watered down results

I'm afraid I'm missing your point here?

 

[~Anastasia~]

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes EVIDENT that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17

Could someone do an exegesis of the above scripture please?

Well, I'm not going to call it an exegesis. And I'd go further than just those two verses. It's a bit chopped up otherwise.

15 As for us, being Jews by nature and not Gentile sinners,
16 yet knowing that no one is justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ*, we believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.
17 But if, even though we desired to be justified in Christ, we were found to be sinners, does that mean that Christ is a servant of sin? Certainly not!
18 Indeed, if I build up again those things which I [once] destroyed, I show that I am breaking the law.
19 For I, through the law, died to the law, so that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. I now live this life in the flesh, but I live [it] by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and who gave himself up for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God! For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!”



I'm not sure what the confusion is. The Law doesn't justify us. We are justified through faith in Christ. We all do still sin (please note the definition of sin/hamartia I gave several posts up) - that doesn't associate Christ with sin because we are imperfect though. We are not to try to build up the law as a way to justify ourselves (we know this) and we would fail just in trying. But we are united to Christ, He lives in us, so we become more like Him (and I'm giving you a bit of commentary here to make it clearer). Through faith, we are being conformed to Him. Because of that, our actions (words, thoughts, attitudes) become more righteous. But it is not because we strive to follow some outward law, but because Christ lives in us, and we are becoming conformed to Him. If we were struggling to keep an outward law, that would be a rejection of the grace of God, and there would have been no need for Christ's sacrifice.

Does that make sense?