Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[prodromos]

what is the importance of this vis a vis the EO and RCC views of justification?

We can only become divine (theosis) through participation with the divine (God's energies). It cannot be accomplished through something which is itself created and not divine.

 

[abacabb3]

not knowing enough I can say maybe. even some saints have been wrong, and he absolutely could be speaking in a way that folks take out of context.

I found this article that speaks of the brief time the Greek Orthodox devolved into the practice of selling indulgences, which the author says is the result of Latinization in the Church due to Muslim domination (and the Greeks being propagandized by Rome.) It includes Dositheus with this group. I would be very interested in your view when you have the time:

Sergei Govorun. Indulgences in the history of the Greek Church / OrthoChristian.Com

 

[abacabb3]

We can only become divine (theosis) through participation with the divine (God's energies). It cannot be accomplished through something which is itself created and not divine.

So, it's not a work because works are created, and God is uncreated, ingenerate, and uncontinent?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I found this article that speaks of the brief time the Greek Orthodox devolved into the practice of selling indulgences, which the author says is the result of Latinization in the Church due to Muslim domination (and the Greeks being propagandized by Rome.) It includes Dositheus with this group. I would be very interested in your view when you have the time:

I will check it out, because that could be. wrong belief springs up from time to time. I was checking too and he was the patriarch who took on the very Calvinist Confession attributed to St Cyril Lukaris, which explains the more Roman language. Cyril was very anti-Rome and especially anti-Uniate.

Alexandria added Cyril to the list of saints because he was martyred and there is evidence his so called Calvinist leanings were not really his, and Calvinists used him as an ally against Rome.

 

[abacabb3]

Also, to stir the pot some more, Saint Gregory Palamas wrote, "She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead."

Is the treasury a reference to the preciousness of Christ or that of the RC treasury of merits ?

 

[abacabb3]

I will check it out, because that could be. wrong belief springs up from time to time. I was checking too and he was the patriarch who took on the very Calvinist Confession attributed to St Cyril Lukaris, which explains the more Roman language. Cyril was very anti-Rome and especially anti-Uniate.

OCA.org says about Dositheos:

In 1672 the Council of Bethlehem/Jerusalem endorsed the Confession of Faith written by Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem (r. 1669–1707), which he drew up as a point-by-point refutation of Lukaris’s creed. Unfortunately, this confession also reflects the typical tendency among Orthodox theologians in these years to use Protestant arguments against Roman Catholicism and Catholic arguments against Protestantism. Its last eight chapters are heavily influenced by Roman Catholicism.

 

[ArmyMatt]

In 1672 the Council of Bethlehem/Jerusalem endorsed the Confession of Faith written by Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem (r. 1669–1707), which he drew up as a point-by-point refutation of Lukaris’s creed. Unfortunately, this confession also reflects the typical tendency among Orthodox theologians in these years to use Protestant arguments against Roman Catholicism and Catholic arguments against Protestantism. Its last eight chapters are heavily influenced by Roman Catholicism.

yeah, that can happen. doesn't mean it is wrong per say, just that we need discernment (ie the consensus of the Church) when we read it.

 

[prodromos]

So, it's not a work because works are created, and God is uncreated, ingenerate, and uncontinent?

I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm only responding to the distinction between the Catholic understanding of grace (created) and the Orthodox (uncreated).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is the treasury a reference to the preciousness of Christ or that of the RC treasury of merits ?

since Gregory was the champion of God's grace being His Uncreated Energy, I am going to say the preciousness of Christ

 

[abacabb3]

I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm only responding to the distinction between the Catholic understanding of grace (created) and the Orthodox (uncreated).

I am still not clear on the importance of the differentation and how it relates to God's grace operating in man, and God rewarding man for doing good.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Is this a case of the more Western desire to have everything spelled out perfectly, vs the more Eastern experience of going about spiritual life and it all fits together and "works"? I have trouble articulating and explaining things sometimes, and maybe we don't always ... but when you've experienced a thing, you know it better?

But I did come into it wanting every little thing explained.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm following with interest and NOT trying to shut down discussion. But I wonder, looking back at my own questions and experience, if that's a factor?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am still not clear on the importance of the differentation and how it relates to God's grace operating in man, and God rewarding man for doing good.

if grace is uncreated, it is God Himself operating in man and rewarding him as He sees fit.

if grace is created, it is a creation used by God, but not God, operating in man and rewarding him as He sees fit.

 

[abacabb3]

Is this a case of the more Western desire to have everything spelled out perfectly, vs the more Eastern experience of going about spiritual life and it all fits together and "works"? I have trouble articulating and explaining things sometimes, and maybe we don't always ... but when you've experienced a thing, you know it better?

But I did come into it wanting every little thing explained.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm following with interest and NOT trying to shut down discussion. But I wonder, looking back at my own questions and experience, if that's a factor?

I suppose I have an objection to the idea that salvation is earned when it is a matter of grace. But, I will have to worship with the Orthodox in order to turly learn these things. But I am a reader, and a writer, so I like to talk out a lot of my understandings and test them. Perhaps too "Western" but it is hard to undo 31 years of programming.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I suppose I have an objection to the idea that salvation is earned when it is a matter of grace. But, I will have to worship with the Orthodox in order to turly learn these things. But I am a reader, and a writer, so I like to talk out a lot of my understandings and test them. Perhaps too "Western" but it is hard to undo 31 years of programming.

I'm not at all criticizing, btw. Trying to help, I promise. I remember my own struggles. And I can completely relate.

Salvation is not earned, of course. But if grace is God's own energy working in us ... part of the time it is working is while we are doing something. I don't know if that helps ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I suppose I have an objection to the idea that salvation is earned when it is a matter of grace.

and we flat out reject that salvation is earned or you can work for grace. good works, like faith, open us up to grace and salvation, which is a gift of God. it is never something earned.

 

[abacabb3]

I read somewhere that works teach us and mold our mind, making us more faithful. In short, just like the practices of the ascetic, they hone our faith in this life.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I read somewhere that works teach us and mold our mind, making us more faithful. In short, just like the practices of the ascetic, they hone our faith in this life.

sure, and every deepening faith fuels works, and all are inspired and sustained by God's grace

 

[abacabb3]

I know Anastasia might not like this, but it helps me to attempt formulating things. I took the effort to compare and contrast Eastern Orthodox soteriology against Catholic and Protestant soteriology. I trying to be as accurate as possible presenting each side. Can someone here let me know if I misrepresented Eastern Orthodoxy in any way?

Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Soteriology Compared and Contrasted

I cannot get the following table to work, but it works in the above.

<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Orthodoxy</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Roman Catholicism</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Protestantism</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Atonement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Recapitulation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Satisfaction</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Penal Substitution</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Righteousness</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imparted</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Infused</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imputed</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification Upon Conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification after conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Justification is an one time event</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sanctification</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Part of justification, being made righteous/just is the same as being transformed into the likeness of Christ</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Similar to Orthodoxy, accrual of merits needed for salvation takes place</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Includes works, theoretically a linear process but usually has peaks and valleys, no bearing on justification</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Inconsequential to salvation or justification, salvation is not earned--the question of how sins of varying degrees which are left unrepented of is unanswered</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Necessary to accrue to satisfy God’s justice in light of post-baptismal sin, salvation is in part recompense for works--any demerits must be corrected in Purgatory to satisfy God’s justice and make man holy for heaven</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accrued by Christ and satisfies God’s justice, salvation is recompense for Christ’s work--purgatory unnecessary</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Treasury of Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits of saints can be acquired by the believer and in so doing satisfy God’s justice</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Closest analogue is that Christ is this treasury</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Efficacy of Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins, in part earns salvation as recompense from God</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, forgives sin (baptism among Lutherans and Anglicans) </span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works and Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, but salvation is not a reward for works in any degree</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, salvation is in part recompense for works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">No bearing on salvation, but they evidence saving faith and improve one’s lot in heaven</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Uncreated, it is man’s literal participation with divinity</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Created, sanctifying grace is an effect wrought by God on the believer’s soul</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A, the state of the believer’s soul is judicially decided by God, grace is merely a reference to God’s dispositions and actions</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Judgement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Depends on group. Reformed assert that all of those who are justified can never be lost. Others believe that salvation can be forfeited.</span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know Anastasia might not like this, but it helps me to attempt formulating things. I took the effort to compare and contrast Eastern Orthodox soteriology against Catholic and Protestant soteriology. I trying to be as accurate as possible presenting each side. Can someone here let me know if I misrepresented Eastern Orthodoxy in any way?

Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Soteriology Compared and Contrasted

I cannot get the following table to work, but it works in the above.

<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Orthodoxy</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Roman Catholicism</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Protestantism</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Atonement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Recapitulation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Satisfaction</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Penal Substitution</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Righteousness</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imparted</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Infused</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imputed</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification Upon Conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification after conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Justification is an one time event</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sanctification</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Part of justification, being made righteous/just is the same as being transformed into the likeness of Christ</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Similar to Orthodoxy, accrual of merits needed for salvation takes place</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Includes works, theoretically a linear process but usually has peaks and valleys, no bearing on justification</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Inconsequential to salvation or justification, salvation is not earned--the question of how sins of varying degrees which are left unrepented of is unanswered</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Necessary to accrue to satisfy God’s justice in light of post-baptismal sin, salvation is in part recompense for works--any demerits must be corrected in Purgatory to satisfy God’s justice and make man holy for heaven</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accrued by Christ and satisfies God’s justice, salvation is recompense for Christ’s work--purgatory unnecessary</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Treasury of Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits of saints can be acquired by the believer and in so doing satisfy God’s justice</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Closest analogue is that Christ is this treasury</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Efficacy of Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins, in part earns salvation as recompense from God</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, forgives sin (baptism among Lutherans and Anglicans) </span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works and Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, but salvation is not a reward for works in any degree</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, salvation is in part recompense for works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">No bearing on salvation, but they evidence saving faith and improve one’s lot in heaven</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Uncreated, it is man’s literal participation with divinity</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Created, sanctifying grace is an effect wrought by God on the believer’s soul</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A, the state of the believer’s soul is judicially decided by God, grace is merely a reference to God’s dispositions and actions</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Judgement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Depends on group. Reformed assert that all of those who are justified can never be lost. Others believe that salvation can be forfeited.</span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

how I would tweek it

atonement - Incarnation
justification upon conversion - N/A
justification after conversion - must have works that flow from faith
sanctification - becoming by grace what God is by nature over eternity. ever growing in His likeness.
works - synergy with God's grace, which inspire and empower good works
judgment - come face to face with Christ in glory. to those that love Christ, He is bliss. to those that hate Him, He is torment.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I know Anastasia might not like this, but it helps me to attempt formulating things. I took the effort to compare and contrast Eastern Orthodox soteriology against Catholic and Protestant soteriology. I trying to be as accurate as possible presenting each side. Can someone here let me know if I misrepresented Eastern Orthodoxy in any way?

Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Soteriology Compared and Contrasted

I cannot get the following table to work, but it works in the above.

<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Orthodoxy</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Roman Catholicism</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Protestantism</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Atonement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Recapitulation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Satisfaction</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Penal Substitution</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Righteousness</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imparted</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Infused</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imputed</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification Upon Conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification after conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Justification is an one time event</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sanctification</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Part of justification, being made righteous/just is the same as being transformed into the likeness of Christ</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Similar to Orthodoxy, accrual of merits needed for salvation takes place</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Includes works, theoretically a linear process but usually has peaks and valleys, no bearing on justification</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Inconsequential to salvation or justification, salvation is not earned--the question of how sins of varying degrees which are left unrepented of is unanswered</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Necessary to accrue to satisfy God’s justice in light of post-baptismal sin, salvation is in part recompense for works--any demerits must be corrected in Purgatory to satisfy God’s justice and make man holy for heaven</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accrued by Christ and satisfies God’s justice, salvation is recompense for Christ’s work--purgatory unnecessary</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Treasury of Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits of saints can be acquired by the believer and in so doing satisfy God’s justice</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Closest analogue is that Christ is this treasury</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Efficacy of Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins, in part earns salvation as recompense from God</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, forgives sin (baptism among Lutherans and Anglicans) </span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works and Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, but salvation is not a reward for works in any degree</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, salvation is in part recompense for works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">No bearing on salvation, but they evidence saving faith and improve one’s lot in heaven</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Uncreated, it is man’s literal participation with divinity</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Created, sanctifying grace is an effect wrought by God on the believer’s soul</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A, the state of the believer’s soul is judicially decided by God, grace is merely a reference to God’s dispositions and actions</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Judgement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Depends on group. Reformed assert that all of those who are justified can never be lost. Others believe that salvation can be forfeited.</span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

I'm not sure why you think I won't like it - I think it's a great idea to help organize thoughts and overall you're well along in the process of making distinctions and understanding. I agree with some parts more or less than others, but as Matt said, I would only call it tweaking. You've brought up a number of things that could make for good discussion. And it seems you've reached many of the same conclusions I did as well, regarding what I sometimes call "evolution of theology" in regards to Orthodox --> Catholic -->> Protestant. I would further comment that if I'd tabled them as you did, I'd probably have reached those conclusions more quickly.