Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[stuart lawrence]

Can a person who enjoys committing adultery several times a week with multiple partners come to God, receive grace, and refuse to give up his practice of adultery, claiming that God will just have to accept him in his sin?

Would you teach that such a one can relax, be assured of salvation, with no need to even try to stop committing adultery?

I'm not talking about becoming sinless before salvation. But there will be some element of repentance there before a person will accept salvation. Otherwise, he doesn't even think he needs it.

If the new covenant only hinged on one core point I would have sympathy with the point you wish to make, but it doesn't

 

[~Anastasia~]

If the new covenant only hinged on one core point I would have sympathy with the point you wish to make, but it doesn't

Then maybe you will have to be more specific and list your points?

Because I'm sure you're not thinking Paul would welcome the adulterer and tell him to remain comfortable in his sin, with no need to repent.

And for what it's worth, we likely agree. Most things that are true are not boiled down to one point, but have beautiful intricacies of how Truth works.

But this is the only one we are talking about at present.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Then maybe you will have to be more specific and list your points?

Because I'm sure you're not thinking Paul would welcome the adulterer and tell him to remain comfortable in his sin, with no need to repent.

And for what it's worth, we likely agree. Most things that are true are not boiled down to one point, but have beautiful intricacies of how Truth works.

But this is the only one we are talking about at present.

Think about what it actually means in practical terms to have the law God desires you to keep written on your mind and placed on your heart. IT IS HUGE;

You cant hide from it, it is always there!

Gone is your ability to sin without conscience, gone is your ability to happily sin in ignorance.
Now you know you must not lust/ have impure thoughts, you must love everyone you meet. No unkind words or thoughts, dont get angry, etc, etc

What are you going to do at this point while you are yet without strength?
Strive to reject your sin( obey the law in your mind and on your heart) with strength you don't have?

The law placed within you refers to the law also only God need know you break.
It isn't just a matter of not commiting adultery, not stealing, not bearing false witness etc!!!!

I don't know about you, but I would have to cling to Christ, or I would sink.
If I got pounded with:

You must turn your back on all your sin if you want the gospel, I may as well give up and walk away!

I repeat, I tried it That way once, in my youth. I gave up crushed, because I would not be phariseeical.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Then maybe you will have to be more specific and list your points?

Because I'm sure you're not thinking Paul would welcome the adulterer and tell him to remain comfortable in his sin, with no need to repent.

And for what it's worth, we likely agree. Most things that are true are not boiled down to one point, but have beautiful intricacies of how Truth works.

But this is the only one we are talking about at present.

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

If you have to use willpower and strength you do not have to stop all your sin in order to receive the Gospel, you have to observe the law fully to be saved.
Therefore, you are justified before God to be accepted by him I you fully observe the law

That is NOT Paul's gospel message, as I hope you would agree

 

[stuart lawrence]

People seem to have the idea, if they don't take the lords name in vain, commit the physical act of adultery( or sleep with someone outside of marriage), dont steal, murder, bear false witness, get drunk, they have turned their back on sin.
I was never afforded that luxury when the law was placed within me!

 

[truefiction1]

How can someone without strength devote all their willpower and strength to divine good?

When we were yet without strength, Christ died for the ungodly
Rom5:6

If you think that Christ died so that the ungodly might find Life through repentance, then you would be correct. If you think that Christ died so that the ungodly might choose to remain ungodly, refusing to repent, so that those such as these might find Life without repentance, then you would be incorrect.

 

[truefiction1]

We must leave behind our sinful life BEFORE we become capable of approaching the gospel.

How do you square That with being made alive with Christ even when we are dead in sin?

No one can square being alive with Christ while yet dead in sin. It is not possible to be both Alive in Christ and dead in sin at the same time. Sin has to be washed away first. Repentance does the washing away of sins, as our own will cooperates with the will and grace of God to accomplish the washing away of sins by repentance.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No one can square being alive with Christ while yet dead in sin. It is not possible to be both Alive in Christ and dead in sin at the same time..

But because of his great love for us , God, who is rich in mercy , made us alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we were dead In transgressions/ sin, it is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:5

 

[stuart lawrence]

X

If you think that Christ died so that the ungodly might find Life through repentance, then you would be correct. If you think that Christ died so that the ungodly might choose to remain ungodly, refusing to repent, so that those such as these might find Life without repentance, then you would be incorrect.

Doesn't address the point made.

A fatal flaw, generally ( there are a few exceptions) on websites is, peoples first concern is to defend their denominational set beliefs/ , and those who espouse them, not to make what the bible plainly states the bottom line

 

[FireDragon76]

A person who is same-sex attracted, for example, who is not even trying to be celibate, cannot come to Church and claim that he should be allowed to continue in his activity, without repentance or remorse, and at the same time seek to receive the blessing of the priest to do so, and choose which parts of the beliefs of the Church he will respect.

That would be a huge difference in our churches. While the ELCA respects peoples' bound conscience on this issue (not wishing to bless same-sex attraction), I do not think it is routine to deny gay people sacraments in our church, nor do we necessarily judge them as unrepentant for being openly gay. My pastor is clear about this, he does not wish to lead any "little ones" to stumble, to lose faith in Jesus, because he would consider it a betrayal of his pastoral call. I know it's not an easy position for him to take, as he comes from a conservative LCMS/LCA background. He doesn't want to alienate people from the Church over such a controversial issue.

Frankly, I find more Christ-likeliness in my pastor in general than I did in the Orthodox church. My Orthodox priest didn't mind offending people and alienating people, and he didn't mind placing a lot of burdens on people, either- in short he lacked the sensitivity I expect of somebody who genuinely knows God.

In my experience, Episcopalian ministers were also extraordinarily sensitive and kind people, they went above and beyond for their parishoners and tried to do the right thing, to the point of carrying real crosses. Frankly, I think I've met more Protestants that have a real love for Jesus as opossed to religion. They are people that have genuinely been set free to love their neighbor by the power of the Gospel.

I've never particularly agreed with the idea of "sinning boldly" as some kind of test for God's grace, as some interpret it. And St. Paul is quite adamant that we should not do so.

It can be difficult to explain because no other Christian tradition really has anything quite like it. The best example I can think of is Shusaku Endo's book Silence (which was recently released as a film, BTW). It also ties into our Theology of the Cross, which is another difficult-to-explain concept. We do not think of the Christian life primarily as moral progress, as becoming more and more like Christ (although we do not deny it). We think of the Christian life as a deepening relationship of trust, where we find grace despite our failure. It's not a religion of glory, it focuses on the Creche and the Cross. These are the places we can most clearly hear God's love for us. God set aside his glory and took on our human nature to suffer and die for our salvation. Christ died for the ungodly, while we were still sinners. That is what we focus on. The human response is not focused on quite as intensely: we are Gospel centered people.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That would be a huge difference in our churches. While the ELCA respects peoples' bound conscience on this issue (not wishing to bless same-sex attraction), I do not think it is routine to deny gay people sacraments in our church, nor do we necessarily judge them as unrepentant for being openly gay. My pastor is clear about this, he does not wish to lead any "little ones" to stumble, to lose faith in Jesus, because he would consider it a betrayal of his pastoral call. I know it's not an easy position for him to take, as he comes from a conservative LCMS/LCA background. He doesn't want to alienate people from the Church over such a controversial issue.

Frankly, I find more Christ-likeliness in my pastor in general than I did in the Orthodox church. My Orthodox priest didn't mind offending people and alienating people, and he didn't mind placing a lot of burdens on people, either- in short he lacked the sensitivity I expect of somebody who genuinely knows God.

In my experience, Episcopalian ministers were also extraordinarily sensitive and kind people, they went above and beyond for their parishoners and tried to do the right thing, to the point of carrying real crosses. Frankly, I think I've met more Protestants that have a real love for Jesus as opossed to religion. They are people that have genuinely been set free to love their neighbor by the power of the Gospel.



It can be difficult to explain because no other Christian tradition really has anything quite like it. The best example I can think of is Shusaku Endo's book Silence (which was recently released as a film, BTW). It also ties into our Theology of the Cross, which is another difficult-to-explain concept. We do not think of the Christian life primarily as moral progress, as becoming more and more like Christ (although we do not deny it). We think of the Christian life as a deepening relationship of trust, where we find grace despite our failure. It's not a religion of glory, it focuses on the Creche and the Cross. These are the places we can most clearly hear God's love for us. God set aside his glory and took on our human nature to suffer and die for our salvation. Christ died for the ungodly, while we were still sinners. That is what we focus on. The human response is not focused on quite as intensely: we are Gospel centered people.

Yes, but redefining morality so as not to offend people?

I know of situations (not exactly the one we are discussing), and our priest handles them with great sensitivity and gentleness. But to simply decide that same-sex activity, or if you want to make it something less controversial, adultery, or fornication - for a pastor to simply overlook such behavior, not address it at all, and bless it, because he doesn't want to offend anyone? That is the kind of pastor you are asking for?


As I said, there needs to be sensitivity and gentleness with whatever a person is dealing with. But I can't agree with redefining sin, and you seem to accuse Orthodox priests of being callous and unfeeling because they won't do so.

I'm afraid I consider your assessment unfair. They have a responsibility before God for the souls they pastor - you would be asking them to voluntarily shoulder that guilt before God, and possibly endanger souls in the process.

It may be that on this, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Think about what it actually means in practical terms to have the law God desires you to keep written on your mind and placed on your heart. IT IS HUGE;

You cant hide from it, it is always there!

Gone is your ability to sin without conscience, gone is your ability to happily sin in ignorance.
Now you know you must not lust/ have impure thoughts, you must love everyone you meet. No unkind words or thoughts, dont get angry, etc, etc

What are you going to do at this point while you are yet without strength?
Strive to reject your sin( obey the law in your mind and on your heart) with strength you don't have?

The law placed within you refers to the law also only God need know you break.
It isn't just a matter of not commiting adultery, not stealing, not bearing false witness etc!!!!

I don't know about you, but I would have to cling to Christ, or I would sink.
If I got pounded with:

You must turn your back on all your sin if you want the gospel, I may as well give up and walk away!

I repeat, I tried it That way once, in my youth. I gave up crushed, because I would not be phariseeical.

Yes, it is huge.

And to try to bull your way through on your own strength is impossible, as you say.

All I can tell you is that you have so many misunderstandings about what we teach.

One turns to Christ, certainly, as they would in any denomination that might deliver the Gospel message to them.

I do think Orthodox are unique in that they don't just tell you "be holy" or "don't sin" but they give actual, concrete help and tools to cooperate with God in His work to create real and lasting change in us. And this goes back MANY centuries.

But I don't know where you get the idea that grace is withheld until we are perfect (that is senseless, because no one who draws close to God will see himself as perfect).

The only expectation being described to you here is that we don't purposely embrace and wallow in sin, expecting God to bless us anyway. And it seems from your posts you would agree with that.

So I really don't understand all the disagreements?

I'm happy to keep explaining, as far as I'm able.

 

[~Anastasia~]

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

If you have to use willpower and strength you do not have to stop all your sin in order to receive the Gospel, you have to observe the law fully to be saved.
Therefore, you are justified before God to be accepted by him I you fully observe the law

That is NOT Paul's gospel message, as I hope you would agree

That's not our Gospel message either ...

 

[truefiction1]

X
Doesn't address the point made.

A fatal flaw, generally ( there are a few exceptions) on websites is, peoples first concern is to defend their denominational set beliefs/ , and those who espouse them, not to make what the bible plainly states the bottom line

These are not the belief sets of a denomination. Repentance unto God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the teaching of God in the Bible. Denominational belief sets are the fabrications of heretical teachers who choose to believe something other than what is plainly taught by the Christ, Whose ministry in the world began with the preaching of repentance in order to receive the Kingdom of God.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, but redefining morality so as not to offend people?

Lutherans have never been known for being moralistic, for the most part. Luther himself had an approach to ethics that is difficult to explain, and I am not an expert on this particular issue. Timothy Wengert's Reading the Bible with Martin Luther is a good intro to how we understand the Bible in terms of ethics, which is quite different from other Christian traditions.

There was a major shift for me in understanding some schools of Lutheran theology, it is still difficult for me to read at times. It's very much focused on reading texts and understanding distinctions between various categories. We do not do theology the same way the Orthodox do theology.

But to simply decide that same-sex activity, or if you want to make it something less controversial, adultery, or fornication - for a pastor to simply overlook such behavior, not address it at all, and bless it, because he doesn't want to offend anyone? That is the kind of pastor you are asking for?

My pastor has told me bluntly he has seen real evil and two guys living together is not it. Yeah, maybe it doesn't measure up to his thoughts on God's ideal (he is basically a Roman Catholic when it comes to what is sexual sin), but he is not going to press the issue, that would not be in keeping with the Lutheran approach as he was taught. He's been a pastor a long time and had all sorts of experiences so I trust him. I really feel like God directed me to this church, anyways. It's been hard to rebuild trust in anybody, even God, but in the end I have taken the leap of faith.

As I said, there needs to be sensitivity and gentleness with whatever a person is dealing with. But I can't agree with redefining sin, and you seem to accuse Orthodox priests of being callous and unfeeling because they won't do so.

I think it is an issue of what the Orthodox would call economia. Your church grants leniency to some, but not others. And often it is arbitrary and not well thought out theologically. But I will discuss that more later. I think Lutherans have a similar ethic, it's just our use of economia is much more broad.

They have a responsibility before God for the souls they pastor - you would be asking them to voluntarily shoulder that guilt before God, and possibly endanger souls in the process.

Maybe the issue is different views of salvation. And we don't have the same attitude to authority as the Orthodox do, particularly in areas of Church traditions, which we do not consider infallible (though we have a higher regard for them than many other Protestants). Many in the ELCA believe that Christians have historically used the Bible against minorities, and that this is no longer an appropriate use of God's Word. Gays don't choose to be gay, after all, and their voices have been marginalized in the past. We use Jesus example of ministry to the marginalized and the outcast as our own model. So we are in a listening process, listening to minorities including the LGBT community, to help us live out our duties to do justice and love mercy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't think I would say Orthodox focus on being moralistic.

We focus on the goal of being like Christ.

The Pharisees were moralistic, I think it's fair to say. We dint hold them up as any sort of example. In fact, we just had the Sunday of the Pharisee and the Publican.

 

[FireDragon76]

We should worry about offending people, at least when it comes to the broken, the frightened, anxious, despairing, the hurting, we should be very worried about offending them. God has a preferential love for them, as evidenced in Jesus ministry. As your own Maria of Paris said, the Cross of our neighbor must become a sword that pierces our own heart also.

Luther said we should preach in such a way that we afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. This is the dialectic of Law and Gospel.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We should worry about offending people, at least when it comes to the broken, the frightened, anxious, despairing, the hurting, we should be very worried about offending them. God has a preferential love for them, as evidenced in Jesus ministry. As your own Maria of Paris said, the Cross of our neighbor must become a sword that pierces our own heart also.

Luther said we should preach in such a way that we afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. This is the dialectic of Law and Gospel.

Yes, but we cannot condone sin in the process. Was Paul worried about offending the person in Church who was having sex with his mother-in-law, was it?

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, and new converts are not the same as someone who has been in the Church.

But if you've been in the Church for 20 years, still commit adultery every week, and the pastor has nothing to say about it because he's afraid of offending them - then I'm sorry but there's a problem.

 

[FireDragon76]

But if you've been in the Church for 20 years, still commit adultery every week, and the pastor has nothing to say about it because he's afraid of offending them - then I'm sorry but there's a problem.

I don't agree in the moral equivalence of the comparison you are making, but its obvious you are not ready to have that sort of discussion and honestly this is not the appropriate forum for it, so we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, it is huge.

And to try to bull your way through on your own strength is impossible, as you say.

All I can tell you is that you have so many misunderstandings about what we teach.

One turns to Christ, certainly, as they would in any denomination that might deliver the Gospel message to them.

I do think Orthodox are unique in that they don't just tell you "be holy" or "don't sin" but they give actual, concrete help and tools to cooperate with God in His work to create real and lasting change in us. And this goes back MANY centuries.

But I don't know where you get the idea that grace is withheld until we are perfect (that is senseless, because no one who draws close to God will see himself as perfect).

The only expectation being described to you here is that we don't purposely embrace and wallow in sin, expecting God to bless us anyway. And it seems from your posts you would agree with that.

So I really don't understand all the disagreements?

I'm happy to keep explaining, as far as I'm able.

I would say cooperation with God, is looking to Christ and trusting him. If you are doing that, you cannot at the same time be wilfully seeking to serve the flesh.
The christian is called to put no confidence in the flesh( themself) phil3:3)

You cannot change yourself, victory over sin, is in dying to law and living by a sole righteousness of faith I Christ.
In my view, people actually live under the law without realising they are doing so. I know I did when i was young.
The Christian is called to surrender their life to Christ, they have chosen their master, the Holy Spirit has entered their life and placed the law within them.
Can a christian be unfaithful and commit wilful sin? Of course they can, for their flesh was not born again. But can a truly born again person happily commit wilfull sin without conscience?
NEVER. Such a person was not born again I the first place