Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let’s say, hypothetically, I think myself Righteous, and forego praying for that quick gust that moves fabric.... Forego praying for God’s Will, and I decide to be clever and pray the very wind sweeps her my way to have and to hold. In the process I ignore the scripture that says beauty fades... and end up married to the gal. 6 months into marriage, I realize that marrying someone based on looks was a bad idea, as beauty fades, while personality is forever!

Yeah... that sums up my first marriage

That moment when you’re reading through Proverbs and realize you sidestepped all the important verses about marriage.

I could write a book on making Ishmael!

Well, when you get to my age (71), then a lot of things are just happy memories! But the companionship and the respect for each other is priceless. If one marries just for looks and performance in bed, then when those things fade, there is the temptation to trade her in for a younger model; and many men sadly do!

My first wife married me in the hope that she could change me from what I was, and when she realised that she cannot change her husband's personality, she became depressed and couldn't see a future in the marriage. The interesting thing is that after she deserted me, I went on to get two university degrees, became a school teacher, and finally got a third degree (M.Div.). I also became an elder in my church. So I ended up possibly being everything she would have wanted me to me, but missed out through her lack of faith in Christ that He could develop a marriage into something meaningful and blessed. It was my second wife, who believed in me and supported me all the way, that I achieved my two mastorates, and an 18 year leadership role in my church.

 

[Grip Docility]

Well, when you get to my age (71), then a lot of things are just happy memories! But the companionship and the respect for each other is priceless. If one marries just for looks and performance in bed, then when those things fade, there is the temptation to trade her in for a younger model; and many men sadly do!

My first wife married me in the hope that she could change me from what I was, and when she realised that she cannot change her husband's personality, she became depressed and couldn't see a future in the marriage. The interesting thing is that after she deserted me, I went on to get two university degrees, became a school teacher, and finally got a third degree (M.Div.). I also became an elder in my church. So I ended up possibly being everything she would have wanted me to me, but missed out through her lack of faith in Christ that He could develop a marriage into something meaningful and blessed. It was my second wife, who believed in me and supported me all the way, that I achieved my two mastorates, and an 18 year leadership role in my church.

Thank God for your blessing! I share a similar experience. Is does my heart well to see the Lord's plans fulfilled in a brother's life!

All Love in Jesus Christ to you! Brother, thank you for sharing such a wonderful story, and your past sorrows too! This old world wears thin, and it always encourages to hear how God can work things that go bad, out for good!

 

[Grip Docility]

I'll speak ultra plain. If a person is a human being, and they aren't "The Son of God, God the Son"... they will fail, and need assistance from God. If a person claims they do not struggle, they are being dishonest with God, Mankind and Self.

Jesus didn't die SO WE CAN FAIL, but BECAUSE WE FAIL.

When people waste Gospel time pointing fingers at other Christians, they are committing the greatest sin of all... not seeking out the lost!

The Gospel is a weapon against souls being LOST! Those that turn it into a self serving message of Holy Living unto Carnal perfection are squandering the Greatest Gift of God!

Souls are the deepest treasure to store up!

 

[ViaCrucis]

By the context of the Book of Romans. Paul is saying we are not under the law, but he wants to clarify that there was nothing wrong with the law, like it was not holy. It is! The problem was trying to keep the OT law with sin in our nature (which Christ takes away). Romans 7 and 8 is a contrast between the OT law before Christ and the NT Spirit after being born again of the Spirit.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 John 1 also has contrasts between light and darkness. Verses 5, 7 and 9 are light; 6, 8 and 10 are those still in darkness.

When Paul speaks of "The Law" does he mean only the 613 commandments of the Torah, or does he also refer to God's commandment in the general sense? That is, are Christians obligated, for example, to obey the command of God such as, "Turn the other cheek" and "Love your enemy" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself"?

For sin is transgression of the Law; if no law applies to us then we cannot sin; for nothing we do--no matter how evil--can be reckoned as sin. For the Law is what shows sin to be sin. That is why the Apostle can write,

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.' But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." - Romans 7:7-12

The Law produces death on account of sin. God's commandment results in death, not because the commandment was given to kill, but because sin which dwells in me is the death of me, and so the Law results in my death. For this reason the Law brings condemnation and death to all.

So then we must determine between two possibilities:

1) That the one who has been justified by God's grace, through faith, having received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ remains a sinner, and therefore capable of sinning, and the Law remains the death of our flesh as we dwell in this mortal body, and for this reason there is laid before us repentance that we might confess our sin freely, trusting in God's mercy, hoping in Jesus Christ. That we might daily drown the old man, and in faith cling to the promises of God in Jesus.

OR

2) The one who has been justified by God's grace, through faith, having received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ is no longer able to sin. Because there is therefore now no knowledge of sin and that which shows forth sin as sin is no longer, I am free to live a licentious, lawless existance without conscience. Committing every possible evil without repentance--after all, there is no law, and therefore no sin. And there remain no faith, no hope, no grace, only the unconscionable lawlessness of the flesh.

Do you deny that the passions and lusts of the flesh remain in the one who has been born again?
Do you deny that the Christian is capable of sinning, on account of the sinfulness of his flesh?
Do you deny that the Christian can be disobedient, and that there is God's commandment instructing him on how he ought to conduct his life?

And if there is God's commandment instructing him on how he ought to conduct his life, and if he does not conduct his life accordingly, is this not sin?

And if it is sin, isn't it necessary that we confess our sins, and avail ourselves to repentance?

Do we in this cling to our weak and mortal flesh which sins, or do we cling to Jesus Christ in faith?

Be mindful of your thoughts, and don't rush to give an answer thoughtlessly and carelessly. Consider yourself, consider your own heart, your own mind, your own thoughts, your own feelings, and how full of sin they, and then consider the Gospel. Do not ignore your conscience, and pray that the Spirit strengthens your conscience.

And if being honest with your conscience, and honest about God's commandment, then perhaps you too shall discover that you do not abide in the perfect obedience of God's commandment--that the good you want to do you do not do, on account of sin that is in your very members.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thank God for your blessing! I share a similar experience. Is does my heart well to see the Lord's plans fulfilled in a brother's life!

All Love in Jesus Christ to you! Brother, thank you for sharing such a wonderful story, and your past sorrows too! This old world wears thin, and it always encourages to hear how God can work things that go bad, out for good!

I was reading Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians in the section where Paul said, "Grace be to you and peace from our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". He says that no one else has ever said that other than Christian believers, because Christian believers are the only ones who know of God's grace.

He says that Justification by grace through faith is a one off for those who believe in Christ, and although there are ups and downs in the progress of sanctification, there is no change in the justified state of the believer. One may struggle to the point where in spite of all his efforts he can see no progress, and be tempted to think that he is losing his justification, but this is not true. The fact that he is making efforts to improve his sanctification and is fighting against the temptations that the devil throws at him, and loses the battle more than winning it, he has not lost the war.

When the allies landed in France on D-Day, they were seriously delayed by the intense opposition around Caen. It took them months to break through, and there were times when they thought they would never do it. But the truth is that the moment the allies landed on the beaches, the war was won, but there were many battles to fight. The Arnhem offensive failed and the troops had to retreat back across the Rhine. It was a setback but not because they were losing the war. It is the same with us. There are times when we think we are losing the war against sin when we have so many setbacks, but as soon as Jesus rose from the dead, and we put our faith in Him, the war again death, the devil and hell was won, although there are many battles to fight which we may win or lose along the way.

It is when we give up and stop persevering that we start to backslide. We may be bloodied, wounded, disabled, limping along, but we are unbowed. Billy Sunday the famous preacher in the 1920s said that he would fight against sin until when he could only bite at it, and if he lost all his teeth in the battle, he would gum it until the day he died!

The trouble is that we have many self-righteous, law-based, religious pelicans who rave on about condemnation over unrepented sin, and, instead of hospitalising and treating the wounded soldiers of the Lord, they put them in front of a legalistic firing squad!

 

[CharismaticLady]

When Paul speaks of "The Law" does he mean only the 613 commandments of the Torah, or does he also refer to God's commandment in the general sense? That is, are Christians obligated, for example, to obey the command of God such as, "Turn the other cheek" and "Love your enemy" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself"?

For sin is transgression of the Law; if no law applies to us then we cannot sin; for nothing we do--no matter how evil--can be reckoned as sin. For the Law is what shows sin to be sin. That is why the Apostle can write,

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet.' But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." - Romans 7:7-12

The Law produces death on account of sin. God's commandment results in death, not because the commandment was given to kill, but because sin which dwells in me is the death of me, and so the Law results in my death. For this reason the Law brings condemnation and death to all.

So then we must determine between two possibilities:

1) That the one who has been justified by God's grace, through faith, having received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ remains a sinner, and therefore capable of sinning, and the Law remains the death of our flesh as we dwell in this mortal body, and for this reason there is laid before us repentance that we might confess our sin freely, trusting in God's mercy, hoping in Jesus Christ. That we might daily drown the old man, and in faith cling to the promises of God in Jesus.

OR

2) The one who has been justified by God's grace, through faith, having received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ is no longer able to sin. Because there is therefore now no knowledge of sin and that which shows forth sin as sin is no longer, I am free to live a licentious, lawless existance without conscience. Committing every possible evil without repentance--after all, there is no law, and therefore no sin. And there remain no faith, no hope, no grace, only the unconscionable lawlessness of the flesh.

Do you deny that the passions and lusts of the flesh remain in the one who has been born again?
Do you deny that the Christian is capable of sinning, on account of the sinfulness of his flesh?
Do you deny that the Christian can be disobedient, and that there is God's commandment instructing him on how he ought to conduct his life?

And if there is God's commandment instructing him on how he ought to conduct his life, and if he does not conduct his life accordingly, is this not sin?

And if it is sin, isn't it necessary that we confess our sins, and avail ourselves to repentance?

Do we in this cling to our weak and mortal flesh which sins, or do we cling to Jesus Christ in faith?

Be mindful of your thoughts, and don't rush to give an answer thoughtlessly and carelessly. Consider yourself, consider your own heart, your own mind, your own thoughts, your own feelings, and how full of sin they, and then consider the Gospel. Do not ignore your conscience, and pray that the Spirit strengthens your conscience.

And if being honest with your conscience, and honest about God's commandment, then perhaps you too shall discover that you do not abide in the perfect obedience of God's commandment--that the good you want to do you do not do, on account of sin that is in your very members.

-CryptoLutheran

The law of the Spirit is fulfilling the righteous requirements of the OT law AND MORE. There is no struggle as in Romans 7. Those who find themselves struggling with the flesh do not have the Holy Spirit in them, and thus, do not belong to Christ.

 

[Grip Docility]

The law of the Spirit is fulfilling the righteous requirements of the OT law AND MORE. There is no struggle as in Romans 7. Those who find themselves struggling with the flesh do not have the Holy Spirit in them, and thus, do not belong to Christ.

There it is. That’s the inner rending of one another I was waiting for: Sinners declaring other sinners more sinful than themselves. A house divided will fail.

This is not the Gospel.

The Gospel is hope for the hopeless. Declaration of Who God dwells within and Who He doesn’t is not a wise phrase to turn.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The law of the Spirit is fulfilling the righteous requirements of the OT law AND MORE. There is no struggle as in Romans 7. Those who find themselves struggling with the flesh do not have the Holy Spirit in them, and thus, do not belong to Christ.

So then can you say, with confidence:

That you are never angry against your neighbor? Never agitated, begrudging them, or retaining bitterness toward them?

That you give freely and unconditionally, that when asked for your coat, you offer your shirt as well?

That if one asks you to walk one mile, you freely walk two miles also?

That when you are cursed, you bless, not merely with words, but in perfect love of heart and mind?

That you love your enemy, with the perfect love which Christ loved you?

That when you see someone hungry, you give them food, regardless of what else you are doing?

That when you see someone thirsty, you give them drink, regardless of what else you are doing?

That when you see someone without, and you have, you give freely, without so much as a second thought?

That you never blaspheme God in thought, word, or in deed?

That you never curse your fellow man in thought, word, or in deed?

That you never envy?

That you are never greedy?

That you are never proud, or haughty, or given to selfish ambition?

That you never act out of your own self interest, but only act in the interest of others?

And that you do this cheerfully, in gratitude, without grumbling, without holding back in heart or mind?

That you have obeyed your parents with right reverence in all things?

That you have not provoked your children to anger?

That you have put others ahead of yourself, at all times, and in all ways?

That you have welcomed the foreigner?

That you have visited those sick and in prison?

That you have clothed the naked?

That you have never sought to make yourself important.

That your right hand never knows what your left hand is doing?

That you have never sought the praise of man, but have always sought the good in secret, giving thanks only to God alone?

That you have never loved something more than the Lord your God?

That you have never profaned God's name by bringing it into disrepute by your own actions, thoughts, or words?

That you never bear false witness, but always speak good of your neighbor, and seek only their good in all things?

That you never gaze upon others lustfully, objectifying your neighbor?

Can you, in good conscience, say all of this is true of you, at all times? Neither acting, thinking, feeling, or speaking in anyway whatsoever that is contrary to God's most perfect will?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Phil W]

95% of men would have unconscious thoughts like that, and the other 5% are liars.

Thanks be to God, the reborn are not of this world, so OUR percentage doesn't fit in THEIR math.

 

[CharismaticLady]

There it is. That’s the inner rending of one another I was waiting for: Sinners declaring other sinners more sinful than themselves. A house divided will fail.

This is not the Gospel.

The Gospel is hope for the hopeless. Declaration of Who God dwells within and Who He doesn’t is not a wise phrase to turn.

I didn't throw anyone under the bus, just showed the same warning that Paul spoke. Romans 8:9

 

[CharismaticLady]

So then can you say, with confidence:

That you are never angry against your neighbor? Never agitated, begrudging them, or retaining bitterness toward them?

That you give freely and unconditionally, that when asked for your coat, you offer your shirt as well?

That if one asks you to walk one mile, you freely walk two miles also?

That when you are cursed, you bless, not merely with words, but in perfect love of heart and mind?

That you love your enemy, with the perfect love which Christ loved you?

That when you see someone hungry, you give them food, regardless of what else you are doing?

That when you see someone thirsty, you give them drink, regardless of what else you are doing?

That when you see someone without, and you have, you give freely, without so much as a second thought?

That you never blaspheme God in thought, word, or in deed?

That you never curse your fellow man in thought, word, or in deed?

That you never envy?

That you are never greedy?

That you are never proud, or haughty, or given to selfish ambition?

That you never act out of your own self interest, but only act in the interest of others?

And that you do this cheerfully, in gratitude, without grumbling, without holding back in heart or mind?

That you have obeyed your parents with right reverence in all things?

That you have not provoked your children to anger?

That you have put others ahead of yourself, at all times, and in all ways?

That you have welcomed the foreigner?

That you have visited those sick and in prison?

That you have clothed the naked?

That you have never sought to make yourself important.

That your right hand never knows what your left hand is doing?

That you have never sought the praise of man, but have always sought the good in secret, giving thanks only to God alone?

That you have never loved something more than the Lord your God?

That you have never profaned God's name by bringing it into disrepute by your own actions, thoughts, or words?

That you never bear false witness, but always speak good of your neighbor, and seek only their good in all things?

That you never gaze upon others lustfully, objectifying your neighbor?

Can you, in good conscience, say all of this is true of you, at all times? Neither acting, thinking, feeling, or speaking in anyway whatsoever that is contrary to God's most perfect will?

-CryptoLutheran

Those are all things you should say to yourself. Are you asking me because they are things you can't do? Don't let me be your measure. That's the job of Christ. Measure up to Him.

 

[Grip Docility]

I didn't throw anyone under the bus, just showed the same warning that Paul spoke. Romans 8:9

Paul is speaking from the example of Jesus. Jesus never spoke those words to sinners. He spoke them to teachers Of the Law, Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[Phil W]

There it is. That’s the inner rending of one another I was waiting for: Sinners declaring other sinners more sinful than themselves. A house divided will fail.

This is not the Gospel.

The Gospel is hope for the hopeless. Declaration of Who God dwells within and Who He doesn’t is not a wise phrase to turn.

There is no sin in Christ, so who are the sinners in?

 

[Phil W]

Paul is speaking from the example of Jesus. Jesus never spoke those words to sinners. He spoke them to teachers Of the Law, Pharisees and Sadducees.

Weren't the teachers of law sinners?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Those are all things you should say to yourself. Are you asking me because they are things you can't do? Don't let me be your measure. That's the job of Christ. Measure up to Him.

You're intentionally avoiding addressing these things.

So let me repeat myself,

So then can you say, with confidence:

That you are never angry against your neighbor? Never agitated, begrudging them, or retaining bitterness toward them?

That you give freely and unconditionally, that when asked for your coat, you offer your shirt as well?

That if one asks you to walk one mile, you freely walk two miles also?

That when you are cursed, you bless, not merely with words, but in perfect love of heart and mind?

That you love your enemy, with the perfect love which Christ loved you?

That when you see someone hungry, you give them food, regardless of what else you are doing?

That when you see someone thirsty, you give them drink, regardless of what else you are doing?

That when you see someone without, and you have, you give freely, without so much as a second thought?

That you never blaspheme God in thought, word, or in deed?

That you never curse your fellow man in thought, word, or in deed?

That you never envy?

That you are never greedy?

That you are never proud, or haughty, or given to selfish ambition?

That you never act out of your own self interest, but only act in the interest of others?

And that you do this cheerfully, in gratitude, without grumbling, without holding back in heart or mind?

That you have obeyed your parents with right reverence in all things?

That you have not provoked your children to anger?

That you have put others ahead of yourself, at all times, and in all ways?

That you have welcomed the foreigner?

That you have visited those sick and in prison?

That you have clothed the naked?

That you have never sought to make yourself important.

That your right hand never knows what your left hand is doing?

That you have never sought the praise of man, but have always sought the good in secret, giving thanks only to God alone?

That you have never loved something more than the Lord your God?

That you have never profaned God's name by bringing it into disrepute by your own actions, thoughts, or words?

That you never bear false witness, but always speak good of your neighbor, and seek only their good in all things?

That you never gaze upon others lustfully, objectifying your neighbor?

Can you, in good conscience, say all of this is true of you, at all times? Neither acting, thinking, feeling, or speaking in anyway whatsoever that is contrary to God's most perfect will?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Grip Docility]

There is no sin in Christ, so who are the sinners in?

When a Christian imposes the Law of Sin and Death upon another... they become subject to it.

 

[Grip Docility]

Weren't the teachers of law sinners?

Not by their professions. They condemned sinners and saw themselves more righteous.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Phil W

Thank you for your "like." I read one of your posts on 1 John and said to myself, there is a man who has spiritual understanding. The warnings in the Word of God are not foolishness to him, as they are to so many.

I see so many through the years who are without the Spirit and who absolutely love Romans 7, because they see themselves and say, "That's me!" And 100% of the time they will also argue to the death that 1 John 1:8 is about a Christian. It is a slap in the face to Jesus who took away our sin, and didn't leave us in it to be defeated. All Jesus is to them is a ticket to heaven, but Jesus may say to them, "I never knew you."

 

[CharismaticLady]

Paul is speaking from the example of Jesus. Jesus never spoke those words to sinners. He spoke them to teachers Of the Law, Pharisees and Sadducees.

You think Romans 8:9 is to Pharisees and Sadducees? Prove it.

 

[Grip Docility]

@Phil W

Thank you for your "like." I read one of your posts on 1 John and said to myself, there is a man who has spiritual understanding. The warnings in the Word of God are not foolishness to him, as they are to so many.

I see so many through the years who are without the Spirit and who absolutely love Romans 7, because they see themselves and say, "That's me!" And 100% of the time they will also argue to the death that 1 John 1:8 is about a Christian. It is a slap in the face to Jesus who took away our sin, and didn't leave us in it to be defeated. All Jesus is to them is a ticket to heaven, but Jesus may say to them, "I never knew you."

And here is the idea that people who don’t see it your way are without the Spirit. You are cursing fellow Christians with the very tongue you bless with.