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Does the Book of Revelation repeat itself?

DavidPT

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I notice nobody is picking up on this SOON element in your original post.


Pretersists likely are, except some of us aren't Preterists.


When we make the comparison of God's scriptural pattern of triple repetition to the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials of judgment, this tells us that the culmination of these seals, trumpets, and vials was SOON to take place in John's generation.

During John's generation he said this of the beast---is not--and that it was to ascend out of the pit. Nothing requires that the beast has to ascend out of the pit during John's generation. And since not one single person can undeniably prove one way or the other, as to when John received these visions, so when John indicated the beast is not, he could have been meaning as of post 70 AD since he could have received these visions post that date. What then? As if it would be reasonable that John was predicting events involving 70 AD that would already be in the past when he received these visions.

It doesn't affect my position one way or the other, as to when John received these visions. But it clearly affects the Preterist position if he received these visions post 70 AD.
 
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Postvieww

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Does this mean that you agree that all 7 vials are poured out during the 7th trumpet, exactly what I'm arguing?
Yes. The seals are the long story the Trumpets are the shorter story the vials are in rapid succession at the sixth seal and seventh trumpet all ending with the return of Christ. The vials are the wrath of the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet.
 
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DavidPT

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Let's compare two texts:
Ge 41:32
And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.


We know with some certainty that Pharaoh's dream's combined two different sets of symbols to signify the same thing. The 7 fat and 7 lean cows signified the same famine as the 7 fat and 7 weak wheat sheaves. What if this is true of the trumpet and vial judgements?

Rv 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


What if the visions of the trumpets and vials are the same thing? Lets compare:

1st Trumpet=hail and fire cast upon the earth
1st Vail= poured upon the earth

2nd Trumpet= a great mountain cast into the sea (1/3 killed by blood)
2nd Vail= poured upon the sea (every living soul killed by bloody water)

3rd Trumpet=a great star fell upon the fresh water (1/3 bitter waters killed many
3rd Vial= Wormwood cast on the fresh water (all fresh water becomes as blood)

4th Trumpet = darkness on1/3 of the moon, stars and Sun
4th Vial= men scorched by fire from the Sun

5th Trumpet= Angel of the abyss/smoke from the abyss brings darkness
5th Vial- the seat of the beast covered with Darkness

6th Trumpet=200,000 horsemen from the Euphrates
6th Vial= The kings of the east invade from the Euphrates

7h Trumpet the resurrection of the dead and the Lord's return and an earthquake
7th Vial = voices, lightning and a great earthquake

Could it be that the Trumpet judgments give a global perspective (hence 1/3) and the Vial judgements give a middle east perspective (hence ALL) ?
I understand that there are some details that appear to contradict this. However we must consider this. God sent a mighty angel in Rev 10 that raised his hand and SWORE that the mystery of God would be finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Yet we only hear it is finished at the 7th vial.
Thoughts?


As to the book of Revelation, some of it is repeating itself, yet some of it isn't. For example, what is recorded in Revelation 20 through 22. Ch 20 involves satan being bound. Except I don't see anything prior to ch 20 that gives the impression this is meaning during when satan is bound.

And the same for the NHNE in ch 21-22. I don't see anything prior to ch 20 that give the impression that any of these events are involving the time of the NHNE.

And the same would be true of the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20. I don't see anything in Revelation prior to ch 20 that is involving this same judgment, though some argue that Revelation 11 and 19 are involving this same judgment. Meaning this in Revelation 11:18--and the time of the dead, that they should be judged. Yet, look how that ch ends, though---and an earthquake, and great hail(Revelation 11:19). Does that sound like that is involving the great white throne judgment?

Speaking of repeating or at least picking up where it left off, something later mentioned in Revelation has to be further explaining this earthquake and great hail in verse 19. And clearly, the great white throne judgment is not it. But ch 16 might be it, though.
 
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grafted branch

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For example, the following occurs during the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


How could that be meaning during any of the vials of wrath? Doesn't this alone prove that the vials of wrath are post 6th trumpet?
Not necessarily.

Something that should be factored in here is that the two witnesses, in Revelation 11:6, smite the earth with all plagues<4127> as often as they will. The seven angels, in Revelation 15:6, come out of the temple with the seven plagues<4127>.

It’s reasonable to think that the two witnesses request that the vials be poured out. In Revelation 11:6 it says they have power to shut heaven, that it rain not, which occurs in the days of their prophecy and Revelation 15:8 says no man was able to enter the temple (in heaven) till the seven plagues were fulfilled.

The two witnesses are able to smite the earth with the same plagues as the seven vials. If you place the two witnesses prior to the seven vials then you have possibly of the plagues occurring twice.
 
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shepherdsword

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The 6th seal describes what will happen in the future 7th trump.

The seals cannot be opened at the same time trumpets sound because no trumpet is given to any angel until after the 7th seal was opened.
The trumpets sound and the vials are poured out all during the seven seals. You are placing a restriction that really isn't there.
 
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DavidPT

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Not necessarily.

Something that should be factored in here is that the two witnesses, in Revelation 11:6, smite the earth with all plagues<4127> as often as they will. The seven angels, in Revelation 15:6, come out of the temple with the seven plagues<4127>.

It’s reasonable to think that the two witnesses request that the vials be poured out. In Revelation 11:6 it says they have power to shut heaven, that it rain not, which occurs in the days of their prophecy and Revelation 15:8 says no man was able to enter the temple (in heaven) till the seven plagues were fulfilled.

The two witnesses are able to smite the earth with the same plagues as the seven vials. If you place the two witnesses prior to the seven vials then you have possibly of the plagues occurring twice.


While I agree to a degree with your point involving the 2Ws smiting the earth with plagues, personally I see that explaining some of the trumpet judgments, not the vial judgments. Which could mean that the 1260 days allotted to them could have begun as far back as the time of the 1st trumpet, which means that this 1260 days spans 6 trumpets. I'm not dogmatic about that, that it spans 6 trumpets. I just see it as being a possibility.

Assuming I'm correct, the 6th seal is only involving the 7th trumpet as far as I can tell, and that it indicates that the day of His wrath has come. And by comparing to Matthew 24, we see in verse 29, pertaining to the 6th seal in Revelation 6, that this is after the trib of those days, which also places His wrath after the trib of those days.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Obviously, immediately after is not meaning prior to something nor during something, it is meaning after something.

Immediately after his shift at work ends tonight he will then get in his car and drive to Walmart to get some groceries. No one would take that to mean that he will then get in his car and drive to Walmart to get some groceries, before his shift that night even begins, or during that shift before it ends.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And regardless what it might look like, stars of heaven falling to the earth, both accounts record this, and they both record that the sun goes dark. And that the latter records that the great day of his wrath is come. If it doesn't come until after the trib of those days according to Matthew 24:29, how could it have already come prior to the events involving the 6th seal? Which would incorrectly place the day of His wrath during the trib of those days. That is not what Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 record. That is contradicting what they record, and not, agreeing with what they record.
 
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grafted branch

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While I agree to a degree with your point involving the 2Ws smiting the earth with plagues, personally I see that explaining some of the trumpet judgments, not the vial judgments. Which could mean that the 1260 days allotted to them could have begun as far back as the time of the 1st trumpet, which means that this 1260 days spans 6 trumpets. I'm not dogmatic about that, that it spans 6 trumpets. I just see it as being a possibility.
Well, it doesn’t say the two witnesses have power to smite the earth with trumpets blasting, it says plagues, the same as the vials. If the trumpet blasts are plagues, just like the vials, it then gives support for the idea that the trumpets and vials are one and the same. I’m not dogmatic about any of this either so I’m not trying to argue for any position on this.

The interesting thing to me here is that the two witnesses have the power to smite the earth but it doesn’t say they actually do smite the earth. It’s possible that they don’t perform or request any of the plagues.

We know for example Jesus could have asked for twelve legions of angels but He didn’t. So if the two witnesses are Christ like (Christian) then there might not be any plagues during their 1260 days.
 
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DavidPT

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Well, it doesn’t say the two witnesses have power to smite the earth with trumpets blasting, it says plagues, the same as the vials. If the trumpet blasts are plagues, just like the vials, it then gives support for the idea that the trumpets and vials are one and the same. I’m not dogmatic about any of this either so I’m not trying to argue for any position on this.

The interesting thing to me here is that the two witnesses have the power to smite the earth but it doesn’t say they actually do smite the earth. It’s possible that they don’t perform or request any of the plagues.

We know for example Jesus could have asked for twelve legions of angels but He didn’t. So if the two witnesses are Christ like (Christian) then there might not be any plagues during their 1260 days.

Basically, right or wrong, my logic involving that is this. Some of the trumpets involve plagues, do they not?

First let's look at what Revelation 11 records.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood , and to smite the earth with all plagues , as often as they will.


Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


This sounds like plagues to me and that Revelation 11:6 indicates that the 2ws have power to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

This sounds like to me what Revelation 11:6 records---and have power over waters to turn them to blood.

Why should we assume the 2Ws are not the reason for this?

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

This is meaning during the 6th trumpet and is involving plagues. Obviously, satan is not behind the reason for these plagues since it is not logical that he would be protecting those with the seal of God in their foreheads. Those would be his main enemies, someone he would want to be harming, not trying to protect from harm. The ones being harmed here are already in satan's camp. Why would satan be doing this to his own ppl?


Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

In order to be intellectually honest here by not avoiding the above verses, since I'm arguing that the 2Ws might be behind the waters being turned to blood via the 2nd trumpet, shouldn't that equally apply to the 2nd and 3rd vial? Not if the vials of wrath are meaning after the 2Ws testify, then are made war against, overcome, then killed, then raised back to life and ascend into heaven.

When does Revelation 11 indicate they ascend into heaven? At the end of the 6th trumpet just prior to the beginning of the 7th trumpet. When does the 6th seal indicate that the day of His wrath is come? During the 7th trumpet unless the following recorded in Revelation 11 is incorrect---And the seventh angel sounded(Revelation 11:15)---and thy wrath is come--and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth(Revelation 11:18)
 
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Postvieww

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What comes before is tribulation, but tribulation =/= wrath of God.

The 3 1/2 year tribulation is not the wrath of God. God's wrath is poured out at the end of the tribulation. The vials are called the wrath of God and they are mentioned in the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet.
 
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DavidPT

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The 3 1/2 year tribulation is not the wrath of God. God's wrath is poured out at the end of the tribulation. The vials are called the wrath of God and they are mentioned in the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet.


I'm pretty certain jamdoc already agrees with that. I think =/= means Not Equal to.
 
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Jamdoc

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The 3 1/2 year tribulation is not the wrath of God. God's wrath is poured out at the end of the tribulation. The vials are called the wrath of God and they are mentioned in the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet.

the 7 trumpets are also the wrath of God. They're not tribulation, tribulation is religious persecution, it's actions by men.
None of the trumpets are acts of men.
the first 5 seals are all acts of men.
 
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Postvieww

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the 7 trumpets are also the wrath of God. They're not tribulation, tribulation is religious persecution, it's actions by men.
None of the trumpets are acts of men.
the first 5 seals are all acts of men.
All acts of God are not called His wrath. No wrath is mentioned in the first six trumpets but the 7th does mention wrath . You are free to assume all trumpets are wrath but the text does not support it.
 
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grafted branch

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Basically, right or wrong, my logic involving that is this. Some of the trumpets involve plagues, do they not?

First let's look at what Revelation 11 records.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood , and to smite the earth with all plagues , as often as they will.


Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


This sounds like plagues to me and that Revelation 11:6 indicates that the 2ws have power to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

This sounds like to me what Revelation 11:6 records---and have power over waters to turn them to blood.

Why should we assume the 2Ws are not the reason for this?

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

This is meaning during the 6th trumpet and is involving plagues. Obviously, satan is not behind the reason for these plagues since it is not logical that he would be protecting those with the seal of God in their foreheads. Those would be his main enemies, someone he would want to be harming, not trying to protect from harm. The ones being harmed here are already in satan's camp. Why would satan be doing this to his own ppl?


Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

In order to be intellectually honest here by not avoiding the above verses, since I'm arguing that the 2Ws might be behind the waters being turned to blood via the 2nd trumpet, shouldn't that equally apply to the 2nd and 3rd vial? Not if the vials of wrath are meaning after the 2Ws testify, then are made war against, overcome, then killed, then raised back to life and ascend into heaven.

When does Revelation 11 indicate they ascend into heaven? At the end of the 6th trumpet just prior to the beginning of the 7th trumpet. When does the 6th seal indicate that the day of His wrath is come? During the 7th trumpet unless the following recorded in Revelation 11 is incorrect---And the seventh angel sounded(Revelation 11:15)---and thy wrath is come--and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth(Revelation 11:18)
Yea, I would agree the trumpets do involve plagues.

I saw a thread some time ago that proposed that there is a difference between the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God.

I can’t remember what specific view he was trying to support but he said something like the wrath of the Lamb is for those who reject Jesus and is less severe than the wrath of God which is for those who not only reject Jesus but also receive the mark.

Would you say the wrath of the Lamb is the wrath of God? Or would you say there are different levels of wrath?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Let's compare two texts:
Ge 41:32
And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.


We know with some certainty that Pharaoh's dream's combined two different sets of symbols to signify the same thing. The 7 fat and 7 lean cows signified the same famine as the 7 fat and 7 weak wheat sheaves. What if this is true of the trumpet and vial judgements?

Rv 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


What if the visions of the trumpets and vials are the same thing? Lets compare:

1st Trumpet=hail and fire cast upon the earth
1st Vail= poured upon the earth

2nd Trumpet= a great mountain cast into the sea (1/3 killed by blood)
2nd Vail= poured upon the sea (every living soul killed by bloody water)

3rd Trumpet=a great star fell upon the fresh water (1/3 bitter waters killed many
3rd Vial= Wormwood cast on the fresh water (all fresh water becomes as blood)

4th Trumpet = darkness on1/3 of the moon, stars and Sun
4th Vial= men scorched by fire from the Sun

5th Trumpet= Angel of the abyss/smoke from the abyss brings darkness
5th Vial- the seat of the beast covered with Darkness

6th Trumpet=200,000 horsemen from the Euphrates
6th Vial= The kings of the east invade from the Euphrates

7h Trumpet the resurrection of the dead and the Lord's return and an earthquake
7th Vial = voices, lightning and a great earthquake

Could it be that the Trumpet judgments give a global perspective (hence 1/3) and the Vial judgements give a middle east perspective (hence ALL) ?
I understand that there are some details that appear to contradict this. However we must consider this. God sent a mighty angel in Rev 10 that raised his hand and SWORE that the mystery of God would be finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Yet we only hear it is finished at the 7th vial.
Thoughts?

There are other parts of the book of Revelation that appear to repeat. So it would not surprise me if what you read is the same thing.

An example of repetition is the judgment of the Harlot, the beast upon which she sits, teh beast is listed earlier in the Rev 13 which may suggest a repetition, if not a repetition it is at least speaking of the same evil spirit at a different time.

Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.​

Rev 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.​

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.​
 
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Jamdoc

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All acts of God are not called His wrath. No wrath is mentioned in the first six trumpets but the 7th does mention wrath . You are free to assume all trumpets are wrath but the text does not support it.

except the 7th seal dispenses the trumpets, and the 6th seal says the wrath is come.
 
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ewq1938

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There is absolutely overlap shown here. The sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the 7th Vial (all vials are in rapid succession) all end with the return of Christ.


The 6th seal and all the seals are prophecies of future events.
 
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ewq1938

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You have not proved "all the seals are completed before any angel is given a trumpet". I believe you have assumed it but not proven it.

It was proven.

The 7th seal only reveals a scene in heaven. The text does not say it releases the trumpets you have assumed that to be true.

I said no such thing. The 7th seal does not release the trumps.

If you try to make Revelation all chronological you will have more problems than you can dig out of.

This is another strawman fallacy. Rev is chronological in places and not in other places. The chronology jumps around often.
 
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