Does John 17:15 Destroy Pretribulation Rapture?

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. The geneva bible doesn't line up with the Hebrew bible or the real messianic judaism.
Daniel's whole concept of the prophecies in Daniel 2,7, and 8 and even to the end are about the Messianic Kingdom.

2. Daniel thought the 70 years would be the end of tribulation for Israel because he would have been reading Jeremiah's prophecy about 70 years.

3. The overall theme is the Messiah coming and the Messianic kingdom.
Daniel 9:24 the Messiah coming and dying and rising would have been correct but the point is that it was talking directly to the nation of Israel and it's Holy City Jerusalem when there would be no more desolations placed on them.

4. Christ restored the spiritual KOG with his death and resurrection but not the physical Messianic kingdom.

5. Rome did kill the Messiah and Messiah was resurrected before the collapse of Jerusalem which Christ predicted in Matthew 24.

6. However Christ didn't make the covenant to make Jerusalem desolate and the oblation to cease in the last week which is 7 years. Jerusalem wasn't destroyed until after 30 plus years after Christ and died and rose again.

7. So I understand why you believe what you believe but the problem is not only the last week which is 7 years, but it is also because the overall context is about bringing in the Messianic Kingdom.

8. The "he" that makes the covenant will be the Antichrist who will do the same thing as Antiochus Epiphanes IV who didn't really fulfill Daniel 8 in the way that is shown except for the desecrating of the temple.

9. So at best your interpretation could only be a historical context of what will basically happen in the future because history repeats itself.

10. The facts are basic interpretation can be made for a historical context but doesn't fit the time factor or the whole context across the board and this is why you miss it on Revelation 12 about the Man child because you leave it in the historical context when it is future in that passage and you make the same mistake with Daniel 9:24:27 as well. You are wrong again because of the time factor of the last 7 years of Daniel's 70th week and the purpose of the whole of Daniel's 70th week.

11. The restoration of all things is tied into national Israel fulfilling its covenants of Abraham and David. That is a scriptural fact and if you want to reject it for whatever reason that is your right but you are wrong. Jerry kelso

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Salvation is no longer related to bloodline.

Rom_2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



Christ is the fulfillment of all of the covenants and promises.
He said so in His own words and it is confirmed by Paul.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

.

 

[LastSeven]

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[jerry kelso]

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Salvation is no longer related to bloodline.

Rom_2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



Christ is the fulfillment of all of the covenants and promises.
He said so in His own words and it is confirmed by Paul.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

.

baberean2,

1. You just want to refuse to believe the truth and believe your own wrong doctrine.

2. The children of the flesh is the context of the spiritual condition according to salvation and that is why a sinful jew in the flesh is not a real jew spiritually.
Verse 11 talks about the promise of the seed was the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but him that calleth. This is the spiritual promise of the Abrahamic covenant that is salvation not by works which could not be perfected or completed until the death and resurrection of Christ.
This has nothing to do with the gentiles taking Israel's place or sharing in the covenant of Abraham concerning the land that will comprise Israel in the millennial kingdom and the covenant of David concerning being the head of the nations in the millennial kingdom.

3. Salvation never had nothing to do with bloodline. Gentiles were saved before the jewish nation was ever started. Quit being so shallow in your understanding of the scripture.

4. Galatians 3:16 Christ was the fulfillment of salvation and that is what Paul is talking about for salvation is for all men not just jews. Verse 19 is about the law being added because of transgressions and the new covenant is what replaced it.
This has nothing to do with the promises of the land and the kingdom of the Abrahamic covenant and the Davidic covenant. Read and understand the immediate context and the correct wording and quit adding to the scripture.

5. Luke 24:24-27 is talking about his messianic ministry to the jews of that day concerning the death, burial, and resurrection. This passage has nothing to do with the covenants of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom because Israel had already rejected Christ Matthew 23:37-39.

6. After all this time we have been posting to each other and you still cannot even understand the immediate passage. What a crying shame. If you majored as much on understanding proper contexts and how to reconcile scriptures together correctly you would do good but instead you decide to stay in your wrong doctrine and stay in tunnel vision. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Seems pretty clear to me.

lastseven,

The reason it is clear to you is because you have the same problem of misunderstanding the immediate context and how to reconcile scriptures together correctly.
You and baberean 2 are ridiculous if you think salvation was ever of bloodline. But this is what he said and you agree with and I disagree with it and so does the scripture. Take off your Rose Colored Glasses. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

After all this time we have been posting to each other and you still cannot even understand the immediate passage. What a crying shame. If you majored as much on understanding proper contexts and how to reconcile scriptures together correctly you would do good but instead you decide to stay in your wrong doctrine and stay in tunnel vision

Yes. I actually believe what the text says, instead of what Scofield's notes say.

It is a crying shame that I actually believe that the middle wall of separation between all races of people was broken down at the Cross.

I also believe the age of Grace does not end and is "everlasting" as we find in Hebrews 13:20.

And when I see those saved by the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, I do not have to explain it away to make my doctrine work.

I actually believe that there is one Flock and one shepherd just as Jesus said in John 10:16.

I realize the whole Bible is about Jesus Christ, just as we find in John 1:1, 14.

I do not believe in endless genealogies, because it is now a waste of time when it comes to Bible doctrine.

I understand that God is not going back to the Old Covenant during a future period of time lasting 7 years.

I understand that there is no 7 year tribulation period anywhere in the Bible.

You can believe John Darby's "story" if you want to...

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Yes. I actually believe what the text says, instead of what Scofield's notes say.

It is a crying shame that I actually believe that the middle wall of separation between all races of people was broken down at the Cross.

I also believe the age of Grace does not end and is "everlasting" as we find in Hebrews 13:20.

And when I see those saved by the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, I do not have to explain it away to make my doctrine work.

I actually believe that there is one Flock and one shepherd just as Jesus said in John 10:16.

I realize the whole Bible is about Jesus Christ, just as we find in John 1:1, 14.

I do not believe in endless genealogies, because it is now a waste of time when it comes to Bible doctrine.

I understand that God is not going back to the Old Covenant during a future period of time lasting 7 years.

I understand that there is no 7 year tribulation period anywhere in the Bible.

You can believe John Darby's "story" if you want to...

.

baberean2,

1. If Scofield says the same thing as I have stated according to real messianic judaism then fine.

2. I believe the same as you do about the middle wall of separation between all races was broken down at the cross.

3. I believe the age of grace doesn't end and is everlasting and that the Holy Spirit never leaves in the tribulation either.

4. I believe people in the tribulation are saved by the blood of the lamb in the tribulation.

5. I understand that God is not going back to the old covenant for 7 years ever.

6. I actually believe there is one flock and one shepherd.

7. I realize the whole bible is about Jesus Christ.

8. I do not believe in endless geneologies to cause strife that are from extreme teachers of the law as Paul talked about in 1 Timothy 1:4. However, you believe this to mean there is no jewish nation in the millennial kingdom at the head of the nations and that is totally false according to scripture.

9. I do disagree with your opinion that there is no tribulation for 7 years and so does the bible. because there are 1260 days in the first half and 1260 days in the second half.

10. The 2nd half is called the Great Tribulation and Jacob's trouble which is a term used only for jews. The remnant is only used for jews. Purifying and restoring Israel is used for jews. There is no where that the true church has to be purified because of sin and restored or will have a remnant. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.

11. So we basically agree on most every point. The problem is your overall context and understanding of the overall context about Israel's calling and the churches calling is wrong. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. If Scofield says the same thing as I have stated according to real messianic judaism then fine.

2. I believe the same as you do about the middle wall of separation between all races was broken down at the cross.

3. I believe the age of grace doesn't end and is everlasting and that the Holy Spirit never leaves in the tribulation either.

4. I believe people in the tribulation are saved by the blood of the lamb in the tribulation.

5. I understand that God is not going back to the old covenant for 7 years ever.

6. I actually believe there is one flock and one shepherd.

7. I realize the whole bible is about Jesus Christ.

8. I do not believe in endless geneologies to cause strife that are from extreme teachers of the law as Paul talked about in 1 Timothy 1:4. However, you believe this to mean there is no jewish nation in the millennial kingdom at the head of the nations and that is totally false according to scripture.

9. I do disagree with your opinion that there is no tribulation for 7 years and so does the bible. because there are 1260 days in the first half and 1260 days in the second half.

10. The 2nd half is called the Great Tribulation and Jacob's trouble which is a term used only for jews. The remnant is only used for jews. Purifying and restoring Israel is used for jews. There is no where that the true church has to be purified because of sin and restored or will have a remnant. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.

11. So we basically agree on most every point. The problem is your overall context and understanding of the overall context about Israel's calling and the churches calling is wrong. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

Most conservative Christians have no idea what was originally taught by those promoting John Nelson Darby's 2 Peoples of God/ 2 Kingdoms doctrine.

Much of it is so blatantly unscriptural that it has been abandoned like cutting rotten spots off of fruit. These modified versions of the doctrine have been promoted during my lifetime.

Let us examine the original fruit to see if it is OK to trim off the most rotten parts and eat what is left.

Classic Dispensational Theology as taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder of Dallas Theological Seminary taught the following...

1. The Jews are God's eternal earthly people, while the Church is God's eternal heavenly people.
(You seem to hold to this part of the doctrine.)

2. Seven years before the Second Coming of Christ the Church and the Holy Spirit will be removed and the period of Grace will end. Then God will go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel under the Old Covenant system.

3. The Gospels are written for the Jews and the Epistles are written for the Church, even though the Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

4. Even though God sent His Son, His only Son to live a perfect, sinless life and die on a Cross for the sin of all those who accept Him, God has not fulfilled all His promises to the descendants of Jacob.

5. Jews are still God's chosen people, even if they reject God's Son.

6. No members of the Church will have to endure a global, endtime government, because the Church will be in heaven during that time.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

Most conservative Christians have no idea what was originally taught by those promoting John Nelson Darby's 2 Peoples of God/ 2 Kingdoms doctrine.

Much of it is so blatantly unscriptural that it has been abandoned like cutting rotten spots off of fruit. These modified versions of the doctrine have been promoted during my lifetime.

Let us examine the original fruit to see if it is OK to trim off the most rotten parts and eat what is left.

Classic Dispensational Theology as taught by Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder of Dallas Theological Seminary taught the following...

1. The Jews are God's eternal earthly people, while the Church is God's eternal heavenly people.
(You seem to hold to this part of the doctrine.)

2. Seven years before the Second Coming of Christ the Church and the Holy Spirit will be removed and the period of Grace will end. Then God will go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel under the Old Covenant system.

3. The Gospels are written for the Jews and the Epistles are written for the Church, even though the Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

4. Even though God sent His Son, His only Son to live a perfect, sinless life and die on a Cross for the sin of all those who accept Him, God has not fulfilled all His promises to the descendants of Jacob.

5. Jews are still God's chosen people, even if they reject God's Son.

6. No members of the Church will have to endure a global, endtime government, because the Church will be in heaven during that time.

.

baberean2,

1. You misunderstand the terms and use them as if they are meant to be a vice between jews and the church. That is wrong.

2. The jewish nation of Israel and Judah who are two sticks and will become one have an earthly calling to be at the head of the nations and to have specific areas of Land over where they are now but enlarged to a greater extent. These are promised through their eternal covenants of Abraham and David.

3. What is promised through the covenants of Abraham and David were concerning salvation through grace and not of works of the final completion of redemption which is the finished work of Christ.

4. Concerning the KOH on earth the church is promised to have rulership positions as Kings, Priests and Rulers.

5. The church is said to have earthly position but also heavenly positions throughout the universe. The nation of Israel is basically to the earth only.

6. So you have the wrong idea about what the earthly and heavenly calling means and it implies a respect of persons with God of which you said yourself of the view and that is not true. The fact that you say that implies respect of persons and to some an antisemitic view.

7. Your motive is not against the jew themselves and it is not supposed to be. But because you do away with the truth that they will have rulership at the head of the nations and don't believe the scripture you are saying God is a respect of persons.

8. Isaiah 2:2-4 is promised to Israel as being at the head of the nations and their covenant of the kingdom is eternal but conditioned upon obedience and this is why Paul said, Israel's calling and election was without repentance. That doesn't mean it ended for good at the end of Jesus ministry or at the cross or in the future.

9. Now if physical Israel who are saved are not at the head of the nations then you would have to say that physical and spiritual jews and gentiles will be at the head of the nations which is not scriptural.

10. The callings of the covenants are nothing about respect of persons but of what God designed and promised. So if you want to displace Israel as head of the nations then you don't believe God and you need to argue with him.


11. I have already showed where and why the church will be in heaven for 7 years. It is possible we could be raptured after the 10 horns are established because they have to be established so the antichrist can come up through them and pluck up 3 horns.

12. The Holy Spirit will never be removed because no one can come to the father without the Spirit drawing him.

13. God dealing with the jews under the old covenant is not actually the truth.

14. It is said that the temples will be built and it is said to take 42 months to build. This is what the angel measured but this is not just a rod to build the temple because a rod symbolizes judgement and the 2nd half of Revelation 11:2 told the angel not to measure the outer court for it is given to the gentiles and they shall tread upon the holy city for 42 months.

15. This means that the temple will be built but desecrated in the middle of the tribulation by the Antichrist who will declare he is God. The AOD will be the rod of judgement on Israel for breaking the wrong spirit of Israel.

16. The Antichrist will have a 7 year treaty and protect Israel until he breaks it in the middle of the tribulation.

17. The old covenant way to be saved cannot be from God because there is only the new covenant to be saved by. So this is a falsehood that God will deal with Israel according to Moses law concerning salvation.

18. The 144,000 will be witnessing before the temple is completed and they will be saved by the new covenant and not the old.

19. The whole bible is for us and with that said the gospels were eyewitnesses account of Jesus and what his ministry was about to the Jews and how the gentiles come into the picture because of their rejection of which Paul said in Romans 9.

20. The epistles were written to the church which is comprised of Jews and gentiles but it was not about the message of the KOH message of Israel's callings. Peter had his ministry to the jews primarily and this is why there are many implications about the KOH for the jewish nation while preaching the gospel of the new covenant both to jews and gentile because that is who made up of the church.

21. God has not fulfilled all promises to the descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob called the Nation of Israel. These will deal with the last three jewish feasts.

22. Jews are still God's chosen people and they will one day in the tribulation quit rejecting him and fulfill their covenants according to Abraham and David concerning the specific land ownership and the KOH as head of the nations on the earth.

23. The millennial kingdom will be a theocracy of God over the earth. It will be of peace and the wolf will lay down with the lamb etc.

24. The theocracy will have civil laws and people will have to obey or else they will be judged and done away with.

25. The church will not endure because we will be Kings, Priests, and Rulers in the kingdom to come. This is what we are being trained for now. 2 Timothy 2:12 says, if we suffer we shall reign.

26. Throughout the book of Revelation says the church will reign on the earth and even Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians will judge the world and angels etc.

27. The church will be in heaven before and during the tribulation and will be judged for our works of how we built on the churches foundation and to prepare for the marriage of the lamb and then to get ready for the supper of the lamb which is the battle of Armageddon.

28. I have given many scriptures on these points and you obviously could not understand because you cannot filter through the proper hermeneutics to get to the answer.

29. The truth is that you read things that certain dispensational teachers are wrong and I have pointed it out such as the Holy Spirit will leave the world etc.
At the same time you read things that you understand in one way but do not understand what there context is really saying.

30. It is like reading the headlines of a newspaper and giving your assessment though you don't know all the details.

31. It is just like your supposed Darby's 2 Kingdoms, 2 Peoples and you take it out of context just like you take scriptures out of context because of wrong hermeneutics. For the most part it is your wrong understanding of their overall context to the facts of scripture that you get wrong and then you use a mantra and take it out of context and declare it to be wrong. Such is your charge of Darby's 2 Kingdoms, 2 Peoples context.

32. Now you have been exposed of what you have done wrong and where you go wrong and need to quit. But knowing you you will not change and continue to accuse falsely because of your wrong understanding just to uphold your wrong belief and hinder the truth of the scriptures. Jerry kelso

 

[LastSeven]

Wow. So many errors and so many things you clearly don't understand yet. Let me just point out one for now.

4. Concerning the KOH on earth the church is promised to have rulership positions as Kings, Priests and Rulers.

We are already seated with Christ in rulership positions.

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. You misunderstand the terms and use them as if they are meant to be a vice between jews and the church. That is wrong.

2. The jewish nation of Israel and Judah who are two sticks and will become one have an earthly calling to be at the head of the nations and to have specific areas of Land over where they are now but enlarged to a greater extent. These are promised through their eternal covenants of Abraham and David.

3. What is promised through the covenants of Abraham and David were concerning salvation through grace and not of works of the final completion of redemption which is the finished work of Christ.

4. Concerning the KOH on earth the church is promised to have rulership positions as Kings, Priests and Rulers.

5. The church is said to have earthly position but also heavenly positions throughout the universe. The nation of Israel is basically to the earth only.

6. So you have the wrong idea about what the earthly and heavenly calling means and it implies a respect of persons with God of which you said yourself of the view and that is not true. The fact that you say that implies respect of persons and to some an antisemitic view.

7. Your motive is not against the jew themselves and it is not supposed to be. But because you do away with the truth that they will have rulership at the head of the nations and don't believe the scripture you are saying God is a respect of persons.

8. Isaiah 2:2-4 is promised to Israel as being at the head of the nations and their covenant of the kingdom is eternal but conditioned upon obedience and this is why Paul said, Israel's calling and election was without repentance. That doesn't mean it ended for good at the end of Jesus ministry or at the cross or in the future.

9. Now if physical Israel who are saved are not at the head of the nations then you would have to say that physical and spiritual jews and gentiles will be at the head of the nations which is not scriptural.

10. The callings of the covenants are nothing about respect of persons but of what God designed and promised. So if you want to displace Israel as head of the nations then you don't believe God and you need to argue with him.


11. I have already showed where and why the church will be in heaven for 7 years. It is possible we could be raptured after the 10 horns are established because they have to be established so the antichrist can come up through them and pluck up 3 horns.

12. The Holy Spirit will never be removed because no one can come to the father without the Spirit drawing him.

13. God dealing with the jews under the old covenant is not actually the truth.

14. It is said that the temples will be built and it is said to take 42 months to build. This is what the angel measured but this is not just a rod to build the temple because a rod symbolizes judgement and the 2nd half of Revelation 11:2 told the angel not to measure the outer court for it is given to the gentiles and they shall tread upon the holy city for 42 months.

15. This means that the temple will be built but desecrated in the middle of the tribulation by the Antichrist who will declare he is God. The AOD will be the rod of judgement on Israel for breaking the wrong spirit of Israel.

16. The Antichrist will have a 7 year treaty and protect Israel until he breaks it in the middle of the tribulation.

17. The old covenant way to be saved cannot be from God because there is only the new covenant to be saved by. So this is a falsehood that God will deal with Israel according to Moses law concerning salvation.

18. The 144,000 will be witnessing before the temple is completed and they will be saved by the new covenant and not the old.

19. The whole bible is for us and with that said the gospels were eyewitnesses account of Jesus and what his ministry was about to the Jews and how the gentiles come into the picture because of their rejection of which Paul said in Romans 9.

20. The epistles were written to the church which is comprised of Jews and gentiles but it was not about the message of the KOH message of Israel's callings. Peter had his ministry to the jews primarily and this is why there are many implications about the KOH for the jewish nation while preaching the gospel of the new covenant both to jews and gentile because that is who made up of the church.

21. God has not fulfilled all promises to the descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob called the Nation of Israel. These will deal with the last three jewish feasts.

22. Jews are still God's chosen people and they will one day in the tribulation quit rejecting him and fulfill their covenants according to Abraham and David concerning the specific land ownership and the KOH as head of the nations on the earth.

23. The millennial kingdom will be a theocracy of God over the earth. It will be of peace and the wolf will lay down with the lamb etc.

24. The theocracy will have civil laws and people will have to obey or else they will be judged and done away with.

25. The church will not endure because we will be Kings, Priests, and Rulers in the kingdom to come. This is what we are being trained for now. 2 Timothy 2:12 says, if we suffer we shall reign.

26. Throughout the book of Revelation says the church will reign on the earth and even Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians will judge the world and angels etc.

27. The church will be in heaven before and during the tribulation and will be judged for our works of how we built on the churches foundation and to prepare for the marriage of the lamb and then to get ready for the supper of the lamb which is the battle of Armageddon.

28. I have given many scriptures on these points and you obviously could not understand because you cannot filter through the proper hermeneutics to get to the answer.

29. The truth is that you read things that certain dispensational teachers are wrong and I have pointed it out such as the Holy Spirit will leave the world etc.
At the same time you read things that you understand in one way but do not understand what there context is really saying.

30. It is like reading the headlines of a newspaper and giving your assessment though you don't know all the details.

31. It is just like your supposed Darby's 2 Kingdoms, 2 Peoples and you take it out of context just like you take scriptures out of context because of wrong hermeneutics. For the most part it is your wrong understanding of their overall context to the facts of scripture that you get wrong and then you use a mantra and take it out of context and declare it to be wrong. Such is your charge of Darby's 2 Kingdoms, 2 Peoples context.

32. Now you have been exposed of what you have done wrong and where you go wrong and need to quit. But knowing you you will not change and continue to accuse falsely because of your wrong understanding just to uphold your wrong belief and hinder the truth of the scriptures. Jerry kelso

1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

 

[jerry kelso]

Wow. So many errors and so many things you clearly don't understand yet. Let me just point out one for now.

4. Concerning the KOH on earth the church is promised to have rulership positions as Kings, Priests and Rulers.

We are already seated with Christ in rulership positions.

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

lastseven,

1. Nobody is denying that scripture but that is talking about spiritually. Read that context of that passage.

2. We are not even in the millennial kingdom physically anymore that seated in the heavenly realms physically.

3. We are seated with him in the heavenly realms IN CHRIST JESUS. The term IN CHRIST JESUS IS SPIRITUAL!!!!!!!

4. This is the same doctrine use of the Catholics to prove that the Davidic Kingdom is now which is not true concerning the physical Davidic kingdom.

4. The component of the Davidic Covenant being fulfilled today is grace which is spiritual.
Why do you keep you just make up things that are not true to the context of which we are speaking? Because you don't understand context obviously or what we are actually discussing.
You give one truth that has nothing to do with the context and that makes your opinion one sided and not scripturally right. Get the picture? You are wrong again. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

baberean2,

1. I have already told you all these basic things before about Isaiah 53 and how the jewish people missed the suffering Savior of Isaiah 53 and this is why they rejected the Messiah.

2. I have already told you that John 1 says he came unto his own and his own received him not.

3. The way the gentleman was witnessing to them was the same way through the law of Moses and what is says about sin and Christ dying and raising from the dead as Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have been doing for years.

4. I was tutored in the teachings of Dr. Hubert Lindsey who was tutored by Rabbi Ziegler and went to the Hebrew Seminary and taught the same thing.
This has nothing to do with Israel the nation not eventually believing God in the tribulation and becoming a nation in one day and becoming at the head of the nations over the earth.

5. I have told you repeatedly that 2 Corinthians 3 where Israel is still blinded to the truth of Yeshua was the Messiah who died for their sins. This is why I said many if not most jews are so secular that they are atheists.

6. If your trying to further your spiritual jew theory to the extreme that they won't fulfill the covenants of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom as the head of the nations etc. then you are wrong.

7. As far as witnessing to the jews today because they don't know about the suffering Savior is what I have said already.

8. If you are trying to make out like no one in Jesus day knew about Isaiah 53 could have been a possibility because the Rabbis had been using their interpretations and mixing in their own traditions and teachings in with the actual law of Moses all at the same time.

9. However, Jesus said in Matthew 16:13; Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

10. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By haring, ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.

11. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

12. Sin waxes gross the heart and makes ears dull of hearing and make them close their eyes though they hear with their ears. The gospel is an offence to those who truly don't want to believe.

13. Believing in the Messiah for those who truly didn't want to accept came to fruition which was a majority of the jewish nation. There was only a 120 on the Day of Pentecost and 3000 were saved which were mainly jews on that day.

14. Today is no different and even more if the majority don't have Isaiah 53 read to them.

15. These jews need to believe in Yeshua and the gentiles and believing jews in the church already need to be witnesses to the unbelieving jews because Paul said they would be used to provoke them to jealousy.

16. This still has nothing to do with the future kingdom being the church at the head of the nations or the callings of Israel or the church in their full and proper context of what they really will be.

17. My last post showed how much you misunderstood the terms and the context of most dispensationalists. You are just like reading the headlines without knowing the details. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. I have already told you all these basic things before about Isaiah 53 and how the jewish people missed the suffering Savior of Isaiah 53 and this is why they rejected the Messiah.

2. I have already told you that John 1 says he came unto his own and his own received him not.

3. The way the gentleman was witnessing to them was the same way through the law of Moses and what is says about sin and Christ dying and raising from the dead as Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have been doing for years.

4. I was tutored in the teachings of Dr. Hubert Lindsey who was tutored by Rabbi Ziegler and went to the Hebrew Seminary and taught the same thing.
This has nothing to do with Israel the nation not eventually believing God in the tribulation and becoming a nation in one day and becoming at the head of the nations over the earth.

5. I have told you repeatedly that 2 Corinthians 3 where Israel is still blinded to the truth of Yeshua was the Messiah who died for their sins. This is why I said many if not most jews are so secular that they are atheists.

6. If your trying to further your spiritual jew theory to the extreme that they won't fulfill the covenants of Abraham and David concerning the land and the kingdom as the head of the nations etc. then you are wrong.

7. As far as witnessing to the jews today because they don't know about the suffering Savior is what I have said already.

8. If you are trying to make out like no one in Jesus day knew about Isaiah 53 could have been a possibility because the Rabbis had been using their interpretations and mixing in their own traditions and teachings in with the actual law of Moses all at the same time.

9. However, Jesus said in Matthew 16:13; Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

10. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By haring, ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.

11. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

12. Sin waxes gross the heart and makes ears dull of hearing and make them close their eyes though they hear with their ears. The gospel is an offence to those who truly don't want to believe.

13. Believing in the Messiah for those who truly didn't want to accept came to fruition which was a majority of the jewish nation. There was only a 120 on the Day of Pentecost and 3000 were saved which were mainly jews on that day.

14. Today is no different and even more if the majority don't have Isaiah 53 read to them.

15. These jews need to believe in Yeshua and the gentiles and believing jews in the church already need to be witnesses to the unbelieving jews because Paul said they would be used to provoke them to jealousy.

16. This still has nothing to do with the future kingdom being the church at the head of the nations or the callings of Israel or the church in their full and proper context of what they really will be.

17. My last post showed how much you misunderstood the terms and the context of most dispensationalists. You are just like reading the headlines without knowing the details. Jerry kelso

You continue to ignore the words of scripture.

Christ told the Pharisees of the nation of Israel that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another nation.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The identity of that other nation is identified by Peter as the Church made up of believing Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into the children of the promise from Romans 9:8.

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(These are Old Testament promises now applied to the New Covenant Church.)

You keep trying to give the nation back to the Pharisees.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree of faith.

You keep trying to revive the branches broken off, without grafting them back into the Olive Tree Church.

Branches broken off will wither and die without the root, which is Christ.


You ignore the remnant of faithful Israelites who placed their faith in Christ.

Then you claim it is about the children of the flesh in direct opposition to the words of Paul below, who said the children of the flesh are not the children of God.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

It is not about race. It is about the One Seed, who is Christ in Galatians 3:16.

You are attempting to remove or deny the most unscriptural points of modern Dispensational Theology, in order to make the doctrine work.

 

[LastSeven]

lastseven,

1. Nobody is denying that scripture but that is talking about spiritually. Read that context of that passage.

Of course it's talking spiritually. That's the only way we'll ever be seated on thrones with Christ. You didn't think we would be literally sitting on thrones did you?

 

[jerry kelso]

You continue to ignore the words of scripture.

Christ told the Pharisees of the nation of Israel that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another nation.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The identity of that other nation is identified by Peter as the Church made up of believing Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into the children of the promise from Romans 9:8.

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(These are Old Testament promises now applied to the New Covenant Church.)

You keep trying to give the nation back to the Pharisees.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree of faith.

You keep trying to revive the branches broken off, without grafting them back into the Olive Tree Church.

Branches broken off will wither and die without the root, which is Christ.


You ignore the remnant of faithful Israelites who placed their faith in Christ.

Then you claim it is about the children of the flesh in direct opposition to the words of Paul below, who said the children of the flesh are not the children of God.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

It is not about race. It is about the One Seed, who is Christ in Galatians 3:16.

You are attempting to remove or deny the most unscriptural points of modern Dispensational Theology, in order to make the doctrine work.

baberean2,

1. I didn't ignore the scripture. This is talking about the spiritual aspect of the KOG which you are using as the physical KOG.

2. The nation it is given to is the church and the church as a nation is not a nation as such as Israel was under a complete theocracy or promises of the earthly covenant of being at the head of the nations. It is not about taking Israel's political estate or civil government or church state ordinances, concerning priesthood etc.
The feasts of Israel were forever according to Moses and will be forever in the millennial kingdom and that is why nations will have to go to Israel in that day to Jerusalem from year to year to worship the Kingd, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles Zechariah 14:16.

3. What they were given was the fruits thereof which was spiritual as well. Verse 42 talks about the rejection of Israel and verse 44 talks about the individual unbelieving jews and verse 45 confirms this.

4. The grafting in of Israel has nothing to do with the promises of Israel and the kingdom not coming to fruition and that is why Paul said the gifts and callings of Israel are without repentance which are eternal covenants of Abraham and David.
The gentiles were blessed with the gospel that they understood through the law of Moses. The church is blessed to share with the unbelieving jews by their witness and both believing jews and gentiles provoke the nation of Israel to jealousy so they will repent and recognize the suffering Savior and many individual jews have that didn't realize and in the tribulation they will even more when jacob's trouble comes and the church is not there with them. They will have the 144,000 and the 2 witness and the souls under the altar etc. and have the Holy Spirit that will still be present etc.

5. The children of the flesh and not of God is spiritual because the children of the flesh of Israel that believe are of God. The same goes for gentiles.
The children of the promise in Abraham concerning the spiritual aspect of grace and not works is the same component of the Davidic Covenant.
Salvation is not about any race and never has been because there were gentiles before jews and Abraham himself was a gentile and God started the race of jews so he could come through that line to fulfill the Messianic Prophecies of the land and of the kingdom which are eternal covenants and cannot and will not be broken. It was also so the Messiah could die for the whole world.
The one seed about eternal life for both jew and gentile concerns the spiritual KOG not the physical kingdom position at the head of nations.
The reason you stay confused is because you believe in replacement theology.

6. You are the one hung up on destroying the truth about dispensations and the differences of callings and positions of rulership in the KOH. Israel will be in the rulership position of head of the nations with David as the king of Israel and Christ will be the king of all the earth and the physical government will be upon his shoulders in that day in that theocracy made up of believing jews and gentiles and there will people who abide by the civil law and not believers and at the end if they are the ones deceived at the end of the 1000 years they will be the ones conspiring with Satan when he is loosed from the pit and they will be killed by God the Father and his fire from out of heaven.

7. You do not understand the total picture yet and you have not proved that there will be jews and gentiles at the head of the nations in Jerusalem. And if you think you can prove it, it will only show for a fact that you believe in replacement theology.

8. The true Messianic Jewish interpretation shows that Israel's covenant is eternal and will eventually be fulfilled by them and not the church of today. This is according to God's promise to them and you use as a point of contention just like the secular jewish view and whoever may say they are messianic jews. There are different beliefs of jews just as there are catholics and protestants.

9. Now I have shown and believe the Biblical interpretation which falls in line with the true Jewish interpretation of the Messianic Jew who believes in the risen Lord and his coming back to establish Israel as a physical theocracy in the millennial kingdom.

10. This is why the world of Arabs wants them destroyed today because it was prophesied that the descendants of Ishmael would always have a hand against them concerning the jews meaning they would always be at odds with the true Israel.

11. This is why in the tribulation the KOH message will be not just the spiritual aspect but more of the KOH message which will make Satan more mad and this is what happens when he tries to kill the Manchild (144,000) and cannot get the sun clothed woman who runs into the wilderness to her place of refuge and then he cannot get the remnant either

12. Revelation 12. In Revelation 13 is when Satan gives his power, seat and authority to the Antichrist and he begins his beast kingdom and martyring saints including the jews but God will intervene in the end when there nation is almost snuffed out again. Isaiah 66:7-9 shows this. Manchild first (144,000) the nation being born again in one day which will be the second coming at the battle of Armageddon and then that is when Zion will be free from their travail for the woman who is Israel will travail and bring forth her children.

13. People get confused and just want to keep this as in Messiah's 1st coming and only Christ as the man child was fulfilled in that day if you look at it historically.

14. The truth is that it is still prophetic to the future because history repeats itself and Christ will not be resurrected in the time of Jacob's trouble of the Great Tribulation.

15. The nation being born in 1948 is true but that is just a foreshadowing of the prophecy in the light of the millennial kingdom concerning the prophecy of the future.
Israel is travailing now under reproach but the true travailing of Isaiah 66:8-9 will not happen till the great tribulation which is future because Israel has not brought forth her children yet in the complete and same sense at in the future tribulation.

16. Daniel 9:24 is about Israel reconciling with the Messiah as a physical nation and this has never happened since Christ day. Right now they are not reconciled for we are still in the church age. They will be reconciled in the time of Jacob's trouble not the church age.

17. You would have to be blind not to understand this today and you would have to be blind to the scriptures if you do not believe this or just think it is talking about having a nation and no rulership position in the KOH which is the millennial kingdom.

18. If you do not believe that the nation of Israel will be a physical nation of believers who are the head of the nations with Israel and Judah being united with David their King and the apostles ruling the twelve tribes from the city of Jerusalem which is the capitol of physical Israel who will be believers in Yeshua then you believe in Replacement Theology!!!!!!!!!!!!

19. Do you believe that Israel will be physical nation of believers who will be at the head of the nations over the earth etc.? Or do you believe it will be a physical rule of jews and gentiles of the church at the head of the nations over the earth from Jerusalem? And don't confuse the earthly Zion from the heavenly Mt. Zion that comes from heaven down to earth.
You are wrong like always in the overall context. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

The reason you stay confused is because you believe in replacement theology.

Some say the Church is now made up of Gentiles and has replaced Israel. That is pure nonsense, because the Church is made up of both Israelite and Gentile Christians. I have had Jewish Christians in my home for Bible Study.
During the first few years of the Church it was mainly made up of Israelites.
The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelites a few years later.

Replacement Theology is replacing the Children of the Promise in Romans 9:8 with the children of the Flesh, based on race.

You are also replacing the everlasting (Hebrews 13:20) New Covenant Church of Christ with a race of people living in the modern state of Israel.

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all of the Old Testament promises just as He said on the road to Emmaus.
It is not a nation based on bloodline.

You keep trying to ignore Galatians chapter 3.

The Promise was not made to the many seeds.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Some say the Church is now made up of Gentiles and has replaced Israel. That is pure nonsense, because the Church is made up of both Israelite and Gentile Christians. I have had Jewish Christians in my home for Bible Study.
During the first few years of the Church it was mainly made up of Israelites.
The Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelites a few years later.

Replacement Theology is replacing the Children of the Promise in Romans 9:8 with the children of the Flesh, based on race.

You are also replacing the everlasting (Hebrews 13:20) New Covenant Church of Christ with a race of people living in the modern state of Israel.

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all of the Old Testament promises just as He said on the road to Emmaus.
It is not a nation based on bloodline.

You keep trying to ignore Galatians chapter 3.

The Promise was not made to the many seeds.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

.

baberean2,

1. Sorry, but you are wrong again.

2. Galatians is talking about salvation and we are heirs according to the promise of salvation by grace according to the death, burial, and resurrection.

3. In salvation there is neither jew nor greek, neither bond nor free, neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

4. Everyone is on the same playing ground or same level. Salvation is for the whole world and everyone knows this that understands John 3:16.

5. The physical seeds of jew, greeks, bond, free, male and female are all in the body of Christ if they are a believer today and they are one in Christ spiritually and one is not above the other in the act of salvation.

6. You are taking the many seeds to discount Israel's calling as the head of the nations and that is wrong and not scriptural.

7. Salvation for a person has never been about race for the gentile was saved first because there were no jews. When the jews come through Abraham they had a complete theocracy and were under no secular or gentile government. They were committed the oracles of God and they were to be the light to the gentiles and yes people were proselyted into Judaism and this is true because gentiles didn't really have a covenant such as the jews.

8. Today jews are not proselyted into gentile christianity anymore than gentiles into judaism or messianic judaism. We are all one in Christ through salvation.

9. In the tribulation the church will be in heaven and the jews will be on earth with other gentile believers. However, the second half which is the time of Jacob's trouble will be the focus of the Jewish nation being reborn into a complete believing nation to inherit the earth at the head of the nations.

10. The new covenant will be the standard of grace that people will have to be saved by in the millennial kingdom just like in the church age.

11. Nobody will be proselyted into Judaism in the millennial kingdom but the civil law will be enacted and they will have to abide by that if they don't believe and make a confession of Christ during that time.

12. For those that do come to Christ it will have to be through the new covenant and this is evident in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13. Israel as a nation has never accepted Christ and the new covenant and they have not got to the place where they don't have to be taught of any man for all shall know God which is talking about the jewish nation. You seem to think this part of the prophecy has been fulfilled and it hasn't and if you say it has you can't prove it scripturally or historically.

13. Peter told some of what Joel spoke of on the Day of Pentecost that manifested but it was not fulfilled according to Joel's full prophecy of the renovation of nature and the armies of the palmerworm, cankerworm, etc being destroyed etc.

14. No blood line has ever had anything to do with being saved. John 1:12; But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Verse 13; Which were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Salvation is only a work of God no matter if it is the jew being the light to the world or the gentile or the jews and gentiles. It is not of blood or bloodline. So you are wrong again scripturally.

15. You are trying to say because of the proselyting gentiles into Judaism etc. is the same as basing salvation on a race or bloodline. You are wrong and dead wrong and don't know what you are talking about.

16. You are also trying to manipulate the term of the KOG as being the physical kingdom reign on earth in this passage when it is speaking of the spiritual aspect KOH as in Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20-21.

17. Hebrews 13:20; The new covenant is everlasting and nobody is trying to replace the new covenant. That is just your dishonest assessment of what you think I am saying and I have told and proved you wrong time and time again. You are more or less saying I am lying but my posts prove otherwise.

18. Israel will be under the new covenant in the millennial kingdom when they become the head of the nations. They will have to believe in the new covenant to receive Christ as their Savior at the end of the tribulation.

19. They couldn't receive the new covenant in Christ ministry because it was never prophesied that they would accept him but reject him just like Isaiah 53 said. The old covenant was still in effect in Christ ministry and the new covenant which is an everlasting covenant was not until Christ died and rose again.

20. First was Adam and Eve who were gentiles then after the flood was Noah and his three sons who were gentiles and then you had Abraham who was a gentile and called out of the land of Ur which was a sinful nation to start the jewish race.
Abraham was the Father of the promise as well as to his seed, Isaac and Jacob and Christ and this is talking about the spiritual seed which actually came through Issac and not Ishmael. Jacob was preferred over Esau and they went through the Egyptian slavery and Moses took them out of Egypt to the promised land and the law was established then. Joshua actually took them into the promised land because of Moses disobedience and he was a type of Christ etc.

21. After the judges came the Kings of Israel's persistence of wanting one. Saul was replaced by David who was a man after God's own heart and then the Davidic covenant through the jews was born. Both Abraham and David's concerning the jews and the physical land and kingdom are unconditional eternal covenants conditioned by obedience to Christ.

22. Israel was oppressed by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome because of their ongoing disobedience to God.

23. The church was predestined because of the prophecy of the rejection of the Messiah by his people, and because Jesus had to die for the whole world so salvation would come upon all men. This is how it was prophesied to unfold. This didn't annul the promises about the specific land and kingdom positions of Israel in the millennial kingdom and this is what you refuse to believe because you want to hang your hat on an absurd lie about the callings of Israel without repentance as not being true.

24. Also, you believe that they are not to fulfill those callings because we are all one in Christ according to salvation and it would be wrong to do so which is anti-semitic.
Now you say that you are not anti-semitic because you minister or support a ministry to the jews and that is fine. However, it is not right to take away their covenant promises and give it to the church. This is why it is important to understand the KOH and the KOG message in its proper perspective. Why? When this is not and can cause the people of God to lose hope in the future. It can hinder the church in evangelism and cause people to miss salvation. It can cause destroy one's confidence in the risen Lord and promote a feeling that christianity is a failure. It will have people focus 1900 year and now much more on Christ on the cross and not the living Christ seated in the throne room. This is from the Kingdom Series Volume 1 by Dr. Hubert T. Lindsey.

25. When people think that Christ taught the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection like we know today it can cause the spirit of the law and defeat in one's life and miss salvation.

26. Jesus teachings were do, do, do under the old covenant law of Moses and our message is what he did, what he did, what he did under the new covenant of Christ.

27. I have already explained Romans 9:8 and all you have done is disagree and not rebut or prove it wrong because you can't.

28. The children of the flesh are those who are jews that don't believe. Those that believe are the children of God. This is the same for unbelieving and believing gentiles.

29. You are manipulating a few scriptures and words and not showing the whole context which is about salvation and not about the callings and gifts of Israel.
Paul explains this in Romans 11:1-2, 25-29 and you refuse to believe it. What do you think the gifts and callings are of Israel? And why are they without repentance.

30. There are some people who believe that the church is just gentiles and I disagree with that also. I have said repeatedly the church is jews and gentiles and this is the church age.

31. In the millennial kingdom there will be the church of jews and gentiles as rulers etc. but the head of the nations will be physical Israel.

32. Show me one scripture that says point blank that gentile will be mixed in with physical Israel in the millennial kingdom at the head of nations. You can't show me and that is why you come up with this whole scenario of the spiritual jew etc. and that Christ will be at the head of the nations. Well, Christ will be the head of the earth and David will be king over Israel and the apostles over the 12 tribes and you think it is just to have a physical nation? If so, who is at the head of the nations? Christ is not going to be at the head of the nations by himself and there is nowhere that says the church will be at the head of the nations. So what is your straight answer to these questions? Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. Sorry, but you are wrong again.

2. Galatians is talking about salvation and we are heirs according to the promise of salvation by grace according to the death, burial, and resurrection.

3. In salvation there is neither jew nor greek, neither bond nor free, neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

4. Everyone is on the same playing ground or same level. Salvation is for the whole world and everyone knows this that understands John 3:16.

5. The physical seeds of jew, greeks, bond, free, male and female are all in the body of Christ if they are a believer today and they are one in Christ spiritually and one is not above the other in the act of salvation.

6. You are taking the many seeds to discount Israel's calling as the head of the nations and that is wrong and not scriptural.

7. Salvation for a person has never been about race for the gentile was saved first because there were no jews. When the jews come through Abraham they had a complete theocracy and were under no secular or gentile government. They were committed the oracles of God and they were to be the light to the gentiles and yes people were proselyted into Judaism and this is true because gentiles didn't really have a covenant such as the jews.

8. Today jews are not proselyted into gentile christianity anymore than gentiles into judaism or messianic judaism. We are all one in Christ through salvation.

9. In the tribulation the church will be in heaven and the jews will be on earth with other gentile believers. However, the second half which is the time of Jacob's trouble will be the focus of the Jewish nation being reborn into a complete believing nation to inherit the earth at the head of the nations.

10. The new covenant will be the standard of grace that people will have to be saved by in the millennial kingdom just like in the church age.

11. Nobody will be proselyted into Judaism in the millennial kingdom but the civil law will be enacted and they will have to abide by that if they don't believe and make a confession of Christ during that time.

12. For those that do come to Christ it will have to be through the new covenant and this is evident in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:7-13. Israel as a nation has never accepted Christ and the new covenant and they have not got to the place where they don't have to be taught of any man for all shall know God which is talking about the jewish nation. You seem to think this part of the prophecy has been fulfilled and it hasn't and if you say it has you can't prove it scripturally or historically.

13. Peter told some of what Joel spoke of on the Day of Pentecost that manifested but it was not fulfilled according to Joel's full prophecy of the renovation of nature and the armies of the palmerworm, cankerworm, etc being destroyed etc.

14. No blood line has ever had anything to do with being saved. John 1:12; But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Verse 13; Which were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Salvation is only a work of God no matter if it is the jew being the light to the world or the gentile or the jews and gentiles. It is not of blood or bloodline. So you are wrong again scripturally.

15. You are trying to say because of the proselyting gentiles into Judaism etc. is the same as basing salvation on a race or bloodline. You are wrong and dead wrong and don't know what you are talking about.

16. You are also trying to manipulate the term of the KOG as being the physical kingdom reign on earth in this passage when it is speaking of the spiritual aspect KOH as in Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20-21.

17. Hebrews 13:20; The new covenant is everlasting and nobody is trying to replace the new covenant. That is just your dishonest assessment of what you think I am saying and I have told and proved you wrong time and time again. You are more or less saying I am lying but my posts prove otherwise.

18. Israel will be under the new covenant in the millennial kingdom when they become the head of the nations. They will have to believe in the new covenant to receive Christ as their Savior at the end of the tribulation.

19. They couldn't receive the new covenant in Christ ministry because it was never prophesied that they would accept him but reject him just like Isaiah 53 said. The old covenant was still in effect in Christ ministry and the new covenant which is an everlasting covenant was not until Christ died and rose again.

20. First was Adam and Eve who were gentiles then after the flood was Noah and his three sons who were gentiles and then you had Abraham who was a gentile and called out of the land of Ur which was a sinful nation to start the jewish race.
Abraham was the Father of the promise as well as to his seed, Isaac and Jacob and Christ and this is talking about the spiritual seed which actually came through Issac and not Ishmael. Jacob was preferred over Esau and they went through the Egyptian slavery and Moses took them out of Egypt to the promised land and the law was established then. Joshua actually took them into the promised land because of Moses disobedience and he was a type of Christ etc.

21. After the judges came the Kings of Israel's persistence of wanting one. Saul was replaced by David who was a man after God's own heart and then the Davidic covenant through the jews was born. Both Abraham and David's concerning the jews and the physical land and kingdom are unconditional eternal covenants conditioned by obedience to Christ.

22. Israel was oppressed by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome because of their ongoing disobedience to God.

23. The church was predestined because of the prophecy of the rejection of the Messiah by his people, and because Jesus had to die for the whole world so salvation would come upon all men. This is how it was prophesied to unfold. This didn't annul the promises about the specific land and kingdom positions of Israel in the millennial kingdom and this is what you refuse to believe because you want to hang your hat on an absurd lie about the callings of Israel without repentance as not being true.

24. Also, you believe that they are not to fulfill those callings because we are all one in Christ according to salvation and it would be wrong to do so which is anti-semitic.
Now you say that you are not anti-semitic because you minister or support a ministry to the jews and that is fine. However, it is not right to take away their covenant promises and give it to the church. This is why it is important to understand the KOH and the KOG message in its proper perspective. Why? When this is not and can cause the people of God to lose hope in the future. It can hinder the church in evangelism and cause people to miss salvation. It can cause destroy one's confidence in the risen Lord and promote a feeling that christianity is a failure. It will have people focus 1900 year and now much more on Christ on the cross and not the living Christ seated in the throne room. This is from the Kingdom Series Volume 1 by Dr. Hubert T. Lindsey.

25. When people think that Christ taught the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection like we know today it can cause the spirit of the law and defeat in one's life and miss salvation.

26. Jesus teachings were do, do, do under the old covenant law of Moses and our message is what he did, what he did, what he did under the new covenant of Christ.

27. I have already explained Romans 9:8 and all you have done is disagree and not rebut or prove it wrong because you can't.

28. The children of the flesh are those who are jews that don't believe. Those that believe are the children of God. This is the same for unbelieving and believing gentiles.

29. You are manipulating a few scriptures and words and not showing the whole context which is about salvation and not about the callings and gifts of Israel.
Paul explains this in Romans 11:1-2, 25-29 and you refuse to believe it. What do you think the gifts and callings are of Israel? And why are they without repentance.

30. There are some people who believe that the church is just gentiles and I disagree with that also. I have said repeatedly the church is jews and gentiles and this is the church age.

31. In the millennial kingdom there will be the church of jews and gentiles as rulers etc. but the head of the nations will be physical Israel.

32. Show me one scripture that says point blank that gentile will be mixed in with physical Israel in the millennial kingdom at the head of nations. You can't show me and that is why you come up with this whole scenario of the spiritual jew etc. and that Christ will be at the head of the nations. Well, Christ will be the head of the earth and David will be king over Israel and the apostles over the 12 tribes and you think it is just to have a physical nation? If so, who is at the head of the nations? Christ is not going to be at the head of the nations by himself and there is nowhere that says the church will be at the head of the nations. So what is your straight answer to these questions? Jerry kelso

Jerry,

You continue to claim to argue with me and say I am wrong, when it is the Apostle Paul you are arguing with.

1. Paul said in Galatians 3:16 that the promise made to Abraham was made only to Christ and in Galatians 3:29 Paul says we are the ones who inherit that promise through Christ. He plainly says the promise is not made to the plural seeds as you are attempting to say.

2. Paul never provides a way of salvation outside of the Olive Tree, which is a symbol of the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11. The branches must be grafted back into the Church for salvation.

3. In Galatians 1:6-9 Paul warns that there is only one way of salvation to be preached.

4. The nation of Israel was selected by God to produce the Messiah. Paul never says anything in his writings about the modern nation of Israel being in charge of the earth in an earthly kingdom, while the Church will be in heaven in a heavenly kingdom. This is one of the greatest errors since the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same. You have been shown the scripture which proves they are the same, but you continue to ignore it to make your doctrine work. In Hebrews 11:16 we find Abraham looking for the heavenly Jerusalem, instead of the earthly Jerusalem on this rotten, sin-cursed world.

5. Over and over again throughout scripture we find Christ as the Rock who will take over the whole earth. The whole Bible is about him, not the modern nation of Israel.


There are Great Errors in Dispensational Theology, which you must ignore to make the doctrine work.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

You continue to claim to argue with me and say I am wrong, when it is the Apostle Paul you are arguing with.

1. Paul said in Galatians 3:16 that the promise made to Abraham was made only to Christ and in Galatians 3:29 Paul says we are the ones who inherit that promise through Christ. He plainly says the promise is not made to the plural seeds as you are attempting to say.

2. Paul never provides a way of salvation outside of the Olive Tree, which is a symbol of the New Covenant Church in Romans chapter 11. The branches must be grafted back into the Church for salvation.

3. In Galatians 1:6-9 Paul warns that there is only one way of salvation to be preached.

4. The nation of Israel was selected by God to produce the Messiah. Paul never says anything in his writings about the modern nation of Israel being in charge of the earth in an earthly kingdom, while the Church will be in heaven in a heavenly kingdom. This is one of the greatest errors since the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same. You have been shown the scripture which proves they are the same, but you continue to ignore it to make your doctrine work. In Hebrews 11:16 we find Abraham looking for the heavenly Jerusalem, instead of the earthly Jerusalem on this rotten, sin-cursed world.

5. Over and over again throughout scripture we find Christ as the Rock who will take over the whole earth. The whole Bible is about him, not the modern nation of Israel.


There are Great Errors in Dispensational Theology, which you must ignore to make the doctrine work.

baberean2,

1. The promise made in that context of Abraham was that salvation would come through the Messiah of salvation not by works but by grace of which David was the same thing. Read Romans 4.

2. Abraham was not under the Mosaic law and David was but they both had the component of grace because to accept and receive salvation was never by works in either age.

3. The law of Moses could not cancel the promise and the promise was the Savior of the world and Abraham and Isaac being sacrificed was a type of Christ.

4. The inheritance of the law was not the promise and the promise was salvation not the inheritance of Israel's covenants.

5. The seeds are all men because Abraham's seed would be as the sand of the sea.
You misunderstand Galatians 3 because you are trying to equate Abrahams seed and the inheritance and the promise with being the promises of the covenants to Israel the nation and you are wrong.

6. Even Galatians 3:22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin that the PROMISE BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST MIGHT BE GIVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE.

7. This is about salvation by grace through the finished work of Christ and nothing to do with the callings and gifts of Israel according to their covenants.
The church will not be the vehicle in the tribulation as witnesses for Christ. You cannot show the church is on earth in the tribulation. Believers are called saints and there are jews and gentiles and they have to be saved by the new covenant. There are no terms of the church in the book of Revelation or anywhere else in the bible that says will be in the 7 year tribulation and especially the last 3.5 years in the time of Jacob's troubles which is a jewish term and has never been a term for the church.

8. You don't know what you are talking about when you talk about the KOH and the KOG.
Paul's ministry was basically to the gentiles and Peter's ministry was basically to the jews.

9. Paul did mention the difference between the Day of the Lord which is the second coming and the rapture which is the dead in Christ and the church being caught up together. The last group of the tribulation saints are martyrs and only the resurrection of the dead only and this goes in line with the last day that the old testament saints understood and Jesus mentioned.

10. Peter on the Day of Pentecost was seeing things that he knew would happen at the restitution of all things which will be the millennial kingdom after the battle of Armageddon. But he didn't understand the fullness of what the church was all about until 8-10 years later with the gentiles. He knew gentiles were still to be saved but not be on the same equal ground as the jew.

11. Peter may have overtones of the KOH but he was preaching of grace and his audience was basically jews. He also taught about the Day of the Lord and the Day of God.

12. John was the one who would give the revelation of Jesus Christ and the end of day that started where Daniel left off not Paul or Peter.

13. Abraham was looking a heavenly country and he is in Christ and so are all the saints and he is in heaven now and will be during the tribulation. When he comes back at the second advent with Christ and all the other saints including those in the church period will be in the earthly kingdom and he will be a part of the KOH Matthew 8:11. The church will be in the KOH as kings, priests and rulers Revelation 5:9-10. This doesn't mean they will not be in Heaven during the tribulation.

14. The whole bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ but that doesn't do away with the fact that it is about the story of redemption and Jesus giving rulership positions to Israel and the church etc.

15. You still didn't answer the question I posed. Where is the scripture that says the nation of Israel is filled with gentiles in the millennial kingdom and that gentiles will be at the head of the nations in Jerusalem? If nations have to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the feasts where does it say in the bible that the feasts are identified with the church? The feasts were eternal and with Israel and not the church. This doesn't mean that the church cannot celebrate the feast now or in the kingdom but the context has to do with Israel in the millennial kingdom because it is prophesied they will do them in the future kingdom.

16. Quit evading the question and the truth and give up because you don't know what you are talking about and you are not being truthful about salvation being the promise only because you want to include the callings and gifts of Israel are without repentance and you cannot prove that scripture wrong either. You are wrong again as always because you refuse the truth and you keep twisting the scriptures and only give half context etc. to prove your point. That is unfair and it proves that you just want to prove your berean doctrine. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You cannot show the church is on earth in the tribulation.

Mistake number 1.

The capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found at all in the entire Book of Revelation. There are several New Testament books which do not include the word "Church".
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the Book of Revelation.


Mistake number 2.

The phrase "tribulation saints" is not in the Bible.
It is a creation of those who are trying to make Darby's doctrine work.


Mistake number 3.

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under Grace and a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Mistake number 4.

The word "saints" is clearly used in the Book of Revelation to describe members of the Church in the following text.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Therefore, the same word "saints" can describe members of the Church in other parts of the book.

I am sometimes amazed at what proponents of modern Dispensational Theology are willing to do to the text to make their doctrine work.

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