Does hell exist?

[FineLinen]

Lightbearer...My friend thankyou for your post! I am more or less holding back for OldShepherd to answer a couple of the questions presented to him in the past couple of days. One of them is to define Zao, from which we will post regarding "prisoners of disobedience." Till then, the best to you and yours.

Another term of the Greek word ba·sa·ni'zo is the Greek noun ba·sa·ni·stes' occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered "jailers" in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and "tormentors" or "torturers" in others. (AS, KJ, JB) Torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although ba·sa·ni'zo is not used here), so ba·sa·ni·stes' came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: "Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as 'torment' (as it doubtless was), and the 'tormentors' need mean nothing more than jailers." (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999) And so, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 for example of ones who will be "tormented day and night forever and ever" evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as "torment" is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31. In other words, being Tormented for ever can simply mean being Jailed, imprisoned, restrained or held in Death forever with no hope of a resurection. No physical torture here just eternally dead.

Gehenna

Opinion Of Scholars

Gehenna Located In This World

Jewish Views Of Geheena

Important facts

Cast Into Hell-Fire

The Undying Worm

Destroy Soul & Body In Hell

The Child Of Hell

The Damnation Of Hell

Set On Fire Of Hell

http://hellbusters.8m.com/biblehell6.htm

What is the Church? It is Christ in living union with His own. That is the Church. You do not build a special building and call it 'the Church.' You do not have a special organization--a religious institution--which you call 'the Church.' Believers in living union with the risen Lord constitute Church. This is the reality, not the figure." T. Austin Sparks

 

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
I am more or less holding back for OldShepherd to answer a couple of the questions presented to him in the past couple of days. One of them is to define Zao, from which we will post regarding "prisoners of disobedience." Till then, the best to you and yours.

FL since you assume that I should address all of your posts and respond to all of your fallacious questions then I must insist that you abide by the same rule. Please go back to my previous posts and respond directly to them. By respond I do NOT mean quote from some "scholar" in your camp or link to some web site. This is a discussion, if you do not understand the word please look it up.

One failing that I will point out here is this I posted a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia (JE) which, in turn quoted from the Talmud and other ancient Jewish writings, neither you nor any of the others who reject historic Christianity have addressed it. So if you will not review my posts prior to that and respond to them, unless you address the JE post, and all posts since then, this exchange is terminated. I am not here to answer an endless string of fallacious questions or visit every website you link to, and have the majority of my responses totally ignored.

Should you choose to address the JE post here is what I am looking for, historical, grammatical, and linguistic EVIDENCE why, according to your beliefs, the ancient, pe-Christian, Jews mistranslated and misunderstood their own scriptures, written in their own language, but you and your group, 2000 +/- years later, with NO expertise in the language, have the ONLY correct interpretation of the Hebrew O.T. scriptures.

Second, historical, grammatical, and linguistic EVIDENCE as to how/why, again according to you, ALL of the N.T. writers did not mean the same thing as their Jewish ancestors when they wrote in the same terms? And how/why the early church also got it wrong and the church (according to you) has had it wrong for almost 2000 years until you and your group came along and set everybody straight.

We can proceed for that point. You just have a wonderful day now.

 

[FineLinen]

Good morning again, OldShepherd...You posted

quote:
Originally posted by FineLinen
I am more or less holding back for OldShepherd to answer a couple of the questions presented to him in the past couple of days. One of them is to define Zao, from which we will post regarding "prisoners of disobedience." Till then, the best to you and yours.

FL since you assume that I should address all of your posts and respond to all of your fallacious questions then I must insist that you abide by the same rule. Please go back to my previous posts and respond directly to them. By respond I do NOT mean quote from some "scholar" in your camp or link to some web site. This is a discussion, if you do not understand the word please look it up.

One failing that I will point out here is this I posted a quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia (JE) which, in turn quoted from the Talmud and other ancient Jewish writings, neither you nor any of the others who reject historic Christianity have addressed it. So if you will not review my posts prior to that and respond to them, unless you address the JE post, and all posts since then, this exchange is terminated. I am not here to answer an endless string of fallacious questions or visit every website you link to, and have the majority of my responses totally ignored.

Should you choose to address the JE post here is what I am looking for, historical, grammatical, and linguistic EVIDENCE why, according to your beliefs, the ancient, pe-Christian, Jews mistranslated and misunderstood their own scriptures, written in their own language, but you and your group, 2000 +/- years later, with NO expertise in the language, have the ONLY correct interpretation of the Hebrew O.T. scriptures.

Second, historical, grammatical, and linguistic EVIDENCE as to how/why, again according to you, ALL of the N.T. writers did not mean the same thing as their Jewish ancestors when they wrote in the same terms? And how/why the early church also got it wrong and the church (according to you) has had it wrong for almost 2000 years until you and your group came along and set everybody straight.

We can proceed for that point. You just have a wonderful day now.

FineLinen

OldShepherd this has been a wonderful day so far indeed. And, I have confidence to believe that our gracious Lord will continue to be a strong support for the remainder. May you and yours also have a day wherein His great Presence lifts you into His expanses. I am new here, I know no one on these threads, although that will change in coming days. And so, OldShepherd, I know not to whom you would be referring when you post regarding "your group".  And OldShepherd, I could not possibly set "everybody straight" for that glorious feat can only be accomplished by the Holy One who must disclose Himself to us, if we are to know Him in fulness, or even in a measure. The experience of being "set straight", or brought into rectitude, must come in the following road....

"For I beseech the God of our Lord Jesus Christ--the Father most glorious--to give you a spirit of wisdom and insight into mysteries through an intimate/growing knowledge of Himself: the eyes of your heart enlightened/flooded with light, that you may realize the hope of God's call."

What a wonderful experience it is, knowing our Lord, and being expanded into a growing and intimate knowledge of Him as He discloses Himself by His remarkable grace and glory. That is the desire of my heart, for you, Old Shepherd, and any that walk this way and read these words! But, there is only one way we can be brought into expansion....the eyes of our heart must be flooded with light by the Father "who gives." I know a Rabbi who is a follower of the Lord,  Christ. He specializes in Old Shepherds. Can you speak to him in Hebrew? You wrote that you read Hebrew and Greek, if I bring him here, you will be required to not make us ashamed. Please let me know of your decision.

In reference to your Jewish Encyclopedia, I posted the following to you earlier today.....

   
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=581307#post581307

 

[FineLinen]

Good morning again Old Shepherd. You may have missed your answers on the other thread...ETERNAL TORMENT IS A LIE

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=582507#post582507

The fact is we need to stick to what the Scriptures teach regarding Gehenna, Shoel, Tartarus and Hades. Furthermore, our Lord declared that "you, (Jews) invalidate the word of God because of your traditions."

We should also point out that Jesus did not believe ANYTHING like the Jews of his day, and HE defines belief not them! The pharisees got their views on eternal torment from pagan religions and philosophies, not the Old Testament, a fact that is easily presented. Jesus clearly said they were teaching the traditions of men, not the word of God, so their "definitions" as to what the fire was, or was not, is literally useless in determining if Jesus taught it or not.

Furthermore, what does an article from a Jewish encyclopedia written in 1910 have to do with what Christians believed in the first century? Why would quotes from the Talmud determine what Jesus or the Apostles believed? There are plenty of writings from early CHRISTIANS such as Clement and Origen....who cares what the Jews continued to believe!

Now, let us continue with a single answer from you, my friend. Can you tell us from the Koine Greek what the following Scripture means?

..."it is because of this also that God has so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other name,

In order that IN the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil. 2:10,11

1. Please define the Koine Greek for...

A. Kampto

B. Exomologeo

C. Homologeo

2. And again I will ask you to define Zao in the Koine Greek.

"I believe that no teacher should strive to make others think like he thinks, but to lead them to the living Truth, to the Master Himself, of whom alone they can learn anything, who will make them in themselves know what is true by the very seeing of it. I believe that the inspiration of the Almighty alone gives understanding. I believe that to be the disciple of Christ is the end of being, that to persuade others to be His disciples is the aim of all teaching.   George MacDonald 

 

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen

I know a Rabbi who is a follower of the Lord,  Christ. He specializes in Old Shepherds. Can you speak to him in Hebrew? You wrote that you read Hebrew and Greek, if I bring him here, you will be required to not make us ashamed. Please let me know of your decision.

As you noted I said I read Hebrew and Greek. I am not conversant in either Biblical or modern Hebrew. Should your friend choose to come here and discuss the Hebrew scriptures I think I can hold my own. May I suggest to you that instead of plotting all these tests and questions for me that you enter into the discussion. I wish to discuss the scriptures NOT answer an endless litany of irrelevant and fallacious questions. Oh BTW if you wish me to define any word that I have actually used I'll be glad to provide that but more and more it appears that you are not knowledgable at all about the Biblical languages. Shouldn't you be telling me what the "correct" meaning is?

 

[FineLinen]

Good morning again OldShepherd, you posted

As you noted I said I read Hebrew and Greek. I am not conversant in either Biblical or modern Hebrew. Should your friend choose to come here and discuss the Hebrew scriptures I think I can hold my own. May I suggest to you that instead of plotting all these tests and questions for me that you enter into the discussion. I wish to discuss the scriptures NOT answer an endless litany of irrelevant and fallacious questions. Oh BTW if you wish me to define any word that I have actually used I'll be glad to provide that but more and more it appears that you are not knowledgable at all about the Biblical languages. Shouldn't you be telling me what the "correct" meaning is?

FineLinen

My friend has already responded to your Jewish Encyclopedia post, and so have I. What a shock eh? Do you really want to discuss the Scriptures, old timer? if so, you can begin with the post above the one you have just presented. From there we shall continue the discussion, simple eh? Why do you hesitate to answer "simple" questions Old Shepherd? 

Rest assured, the litany of "irrelevant" and "fallacious" questions are moving towards an objective. Do you sense the problem such "irrelevant" questions hold  for your shakey foundation? We will leave the "fallacious" aspect to our Lord's viewership. Now, dear one, may the Lord Elyon see fit to illumine our beings with the experience that comes from the opening of the eyes of the heart through an intimate and growing knowledge of Himself. With that prayer, I will patiently wait for your gracious reply. 

 

[FineLinen]

OldShepherd...I just tuned in on your distinguised form at the pulpit. You are a handsome rascal indeed!

 

[FineLinen]

OldShepherd...I have found your responses on the other thread. Oh, you are a busy old lad! You be careful now, your old heart may not take all this pressure! Yes, I'm funnin' ya! (Where are those silly smilies?) I do appreciate you taking time to defend your shakey foundation, and will attempt to respond later on. Man you are a lot of work! Heading off now to see what I can learn from those remarkable men, the Pharisees!

Will it do any good presenting Drs. Vincent/Weymouth/Farrar/MacKnight/Turner/Lammenois/Stephen Jones, among others, regarding the meaning of Aion/aionios, or do you dismiss them with others of "my group"?

Not to be opened by OldShepherd

Eternal Punishment by Thomas Thayer

http://hellbusters.8m.com/origineternal.html

Eonian is a word, an adjective. It has a meaning (of, or pertaining to, a particular eon, or to the eons in general). While the exact meaning is determined by the context, the meaning is NOT affected by the word it is modifying.

Even in the case where the book of Romans (chapter 16), where the expression "eonian God" appears, eonian does NOT mean eternal, simply because God is eternal by nature. God is the Creator of the eons, hence He is the eonian God. But eonian does not become eternal, simply because God is eternal. God is not temporary, and will not cease to exist after the eons end. But even after the eons end, He will continue to have always been the God of the eons, the eonian God. Eonian does not describe God's existence in eternity, but His relationship to these temporary eons.

"Eon" NEVER means "eternity."

"Eonian" NEVER means "eternal."

"The word "Aionios" by itself, whether adjective or substantive, NEVER  means endless."  Canon Farrar

{b]"The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness,  IT ALWAYS MEANT, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural--how could you talk of the aeons  and aeons and aeons as the Scripture does?"[/b] C. Kingsley  

The secular games, celebrated every century were called "eternal" by the Greeks. (HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

 

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
My friend has already responded to your Jewish Encyclopedia post, and so have I. What a shock eh?

With a bunch of unsupported and undocumented assertions and not one bit of proof or evidence and ended with an ad hominem attack against the editor of the article. What a shock nothing substantial.

Do you really want to discuss the Scriptures, old timer? if so, you can begin with the post above the one you have just presented. From there we shall continue the discussion, simple eh?

Very simple indeed go back to the point where you joined the thread and address all of the posts and points I have made, then we will go from there.

Why do you hesitate to answer "simple" questions Old Shepherd? 

Why have you ignored most of my posts. Why have you not answered my questions?

Rest assured, the litany of "irrelevant" and "fallacious" questions are moving towards an objective. Do you sense the problem such "irrelevant" questions hold  for your shakey foundation?

No problem whatsoever. Your 19th century heresy is the one with the shaky foundation. My theology is supported by the Bible and church history. Plus first century Judaism. As I said before you have not stated an indentifiable position whatsoever.

 

[FineLinen]

Greetings again to you OldShepherd. My brother, far to the contrary, I find you an exciting individual and every one of your posts I am digesting with thankfulness. Your grasp of Hebrew and Greek is most impressive. We are fortunate to have you as a moderator; please understand I do appreciate the time you take on your posts. You surely have a full day in pursuing the cares of a people that surround you, and still devote yourself to this ministry. My desire for you is that our Lord will continue to lift you into His high and lofty enterprises in great fulness. My desire towards Him burns with an intensity, and the further I go into Him, the more I realize how little I truly understand. His ways are far above us, His paths are trackless, but He does disclose Himself to those who have been brought into the desert of His purposes to face a new day where it requires the taking off of ones shoes! And so, dear Old Shepherd, with the Bible, Church History, and the Pharisees blending into spontaneous vibrations of glory for you, it appears you stand in need of nothing. May His Presence continue to be rich for you and yours....in His great love and grace, old FineLinen.....heck lets get on a first name basis....in His love, David


http://newhopemusic.com/howawesome.htm

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Linen[/b]
Will it do any good presenting Drs. Vincent/Weymouth/Farrar/MacKnight/Turner/Lammenois/Stephen Jones, among others, regarding the meaning of Aion/aionios, or do you dismiss them with others of "my group"?

Yes I do dismiss them, unless along with their exalted opinions you/they present some evidence.

Eternal Punishment by Thomas Thayer

http://hellbusters.8m.com/origineternal.html

More of the same.

Eonian is a word, an adjective. It has a meaning (of, or pertaining to, a particular eon, or to the eons in general). While the exact meaning is determined by the context, the meaning is NOT affected by the word it is modifying.

Even in the case where the book of Romans (chapter 16), where the expression "eonian God" appears, eonian does NOT mean eternal, simply because God is eternal by nature. God is the Creator of the eons, hence He is the eonian God. But eonian does not become eternal, simply because God is eternal. God is not temporary, and will not cease to exist after the eons end. But even after the eons end, He will continue to have always been the God of the eons, the eonian God. Eonian does not describe God's existence in eternity, but His relationship to these temporary eons.

"Eon" NEVER means "eternity."

"Eonian" NEVER means "eternal."

"The word "Aionios" by itself, whether adjective or substantive, NEVER means endless." Canon Farrar

"The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness, IT ALWAYS MEANT, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural--how could you talk of the aeons and aeons and aeons as the Scripture does?"C. Kingsley

• Aiwn/wV w (Hom .+Herm. Wr.; inscr. Pap., LXX, En Philo, Joseph., Test. 12 Patr. Sib. Or.) time, age. 1. very long, time, eternity-a. of times gone by, the past, earliest times, then eternity. A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker, p. 27
  
  Aiwn [age aeon] AiwniV aionios [eternal]
  A. The Nonbiblical use. Meanings are a. “vital force’, b. lifetime” c. “age” or generations” d. “time” and e. eternity
  B. aion in the sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 31

Linen, Your so-called “Dr.” scholar demonstrates an abysmal ignorance of the most basic Greek grammar. This is a blatant example of twisting and wresting the scriptures to make it say what you want it to say. Aiônios is an adjective, which describes God, not a noun, something God possesses, as this post tries to pervert it. Here is the pertinent passage.

• 
  Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (aiwniou) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Note Robertson’s exegesis and Strong’s definition of aiônios. A grammatical note, aiôniou is the Genitive case of aiônios.

• 
  Robertson, Word Pictures, Rom 16:26
  {According to the command of the eternal God} (\kat’ epitagên tou aiôniou theou\). Paul conceives that God is in charge of the redemptive work and gives his orders (#1:1-5; 10:15). The same adjective \aiônios\ is here applied to God that is used of eternal life and eternal punishment in #Mt 25:46.

In order to have a consistent hermeneutic then aiônios in Matt 25:46 must mean the life of the aiôns not, “eternal life”!

• 
  166aiwnioV aiônios ahee-o’-nee-os
  from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
  AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
  1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
  2) without beginning
  3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Even in the case where the book of Romans (chapter 16), where the expression "eonian God" appears, eonian does NOT mean eternal, simply because God is eternal by nature. God is the Creator of the eons, hence He is the eonian God. But eonian does not become eternal, simply because God is eternal. God is not temporary etc. etc. etc. blah blah, blah

Let us apply your aberrant reasoning to the following passages, all of which use adjectives to describe qualities of God. According to your reasoning these verses do not call God the “living God” or the “most high God” but the God of “the living”, the God of the “most high.” God is not the “uncorruptible” or the “blessed” God but the God of the “uncorruptible” and the God of the “blessed!” These verses don’t say that God is “Almighty God”, “the great God”, “the only wise God” or the “true God. Instead these verses say that God is the God of “the almighty”, God of “the great”, God of “the only wise” and God of “the true.”

• 
  Mt 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
  
  Mr 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God?
  
  Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
  
  Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
  
  1 Tim 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
  
  1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
  
  Re 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
  
  Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
  
  Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
  
  1 Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
  
  Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This so-called Dr. states that God does not need to be described as eternal, because He is eternal, blah, blah, blah. Note the Jewish Publication Society translation of the following verses. The people of God did not just assume that God is eternal. We know that God is eternal because He tells us in His word. Paul was using the language of the Old Testament to describe God. Does Isa 40:28, e.g., mean that God is the God of the everlasting, or Jer 10:10 the king of the everlasting?

• 
  JPS De 33:27 The eternal keh’-dem God is a dwelling-place, and underneath are the everlasting (o-lawm’) arms; and He thrust out the enemy from before thee, and said: ‘Destroy.’
  
  Ge 21:33 And Abraham planted a tamarisk-tree in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting (o-lawm’) God.
  
  Isa 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever, for the LORD is GOD, an everlasting (o-lawm’) Rock.
  
  Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard that the everlasting (o-lawm’) God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? His discernment is past searching out.

 

[OldShepherd]

• Jer 10:10 But the LORD God is the true God, He is the living God, and the everlasting (o-lawm’) King; at His wrath the earth trembleth, and the nations are not able to abide His indignation.
  
  05769 עולם ‘owlam o-lawm’ or עלם ‘olam o-lawm’
  from 05956; TWOT - 1631a; n m
  AV - ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2, more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439
  1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world.
  
  06924 קדמ qedem keh’-dem or קדמה qedmah kayd’-maw
  from 06923; TWOT - 1988a;
  AV - east 32, old 17, eastward 11, ancient 6, east side 5, before 3, east part 2, ancient time 2, aforetime 1, eternal 1, misc 7; 87 n m
  1) east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
  1a) front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
  1b) ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
  1c) anciently, of old (adverb)
  1d) beginning
  1e) east
  adv 2) eastward, to or toward the East

You have quoted several so-called “Drs” decrying, “The Greek word “aiwn/aiôn”, does not, never, ever, mean eternal.” This is a vicious lie from the deepest pits of Satan. Note, none of your alleged “scholars” cite any Greek language resources. See Strong’s definitions, below. The primary meaning of “aiôn”, is “for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity.” The definition for “aiôn”, refers to the root word, “aei.” Note, even the primary meaning of “aei”, is “perpetually, incessantly.” The only place these words do not mean eternal, etc., is in the minds and scribblings of heretics and cults!

• 
  165 aiwn aion ahee-ohn’
  from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
  AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
  1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
  2) the worlds, universe
  3) period of time, age
  
  104 aei aei ah-eye’
  from an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration);; adv
  AV - alway 4, always 3, ever 1; 8
  1) perpetually, incessantly
  2) invariably, at any and every time: when according to the circumstances something is or ought to be done again

I will repeat something I said previously. If you want definitions of Greek words, look them up yourself at blueletterbible or crosswalk. As you will note I usually define and/or provide an expert exegesis of significant words I cite. These exegeses point out the significance of the case, mood, tense, gender, person, and number of the original Greek. This indispensable significance is ignored when you, or your sources, simply assume, because a word, which may have several meanings, is used in one verse it means exactly the same thing in every other verse. A good example of this fallacy is the English word burn. First degree burn, chemical burn, heartburn, rope/mat burn, burning eyes, burning ears, “I was burned by a bad investment,”, “burning in lust” (Rom 1:27) do not mean the same thing.

You keep quoting a plethora of so-called Drs and scholars all stating their opinions about what “aiôn”, and other Greek words, “really” mean. I have pointed out several times and you have ignored, none, as in zero, of your alleged scholars, have quoted, have offered one scintilla, one iota of Greek language resources support, not even Strong’s. Since you have quoted Universalist sources several times, I assume that is your affiliation. When I say “your group” I mean whatever religious society/church/denomination/fellowship/synagogue, etc. you consider yourself to be a member of. Your presentation, of your position, thus far, is no different than the Later Daze Ain’ts, JWs or any other heretical group. They too quote scores of their own so-called scholars to prove their doctrine.

For example, do the scribblings of Joe Smith and Brigham Young, or a bunch of LDS “scholars” swearing, on a stack of Books of Mormon, without any historical, documentary evidence, prove that baptism for the dead is scriptural? Now apply that same reasoning to yourself, does quoting a bunch of your so-called “scholars”, however ancient or modern, all saying, “Aiôn” never means eternal.”, also without any historical, documentary evidence, prove they are right? If so, then all the cults, JW, LDS, UPCI, WWCG, WAY, etc., are correct too, they have just as many of their own so-called scholars swearing they are right.

OTOH, I have presented irrefutable evidence, from recognized, authoritative, standard Bible research resources; Jewish Encyclopedia (JE), International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE); standard Greek language resources, Strong’s concordance, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker (BAGD) N. T. Greek Lexicon, and Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), the Talmud, the imminent Greek scholar A. T. Robertson and Early Church Fathers (ECF), all of which you have largely ignored. The only direct response was to the JE, your so-called Rabbi blew off JE, without presenting a single bit of evidence.

When Abraham Lincoln was criticized for his conduct of the civil war he replied,

• 
  If I tried to read, let alone answer, every criticism that comes into this office, this shop would be closed for any other business. I do the best I can, the best I know how, and will continue doing so until the end. If the end brings me out wrong, ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.

Bring on the angels. All you have to do is present credible evidence that all the authoritative, historical, documentary sources, e.g. JE, ISBE, BAGD, TDNT, ECF, LSJ, Talmud, etc., I have quoted and referenced, are wrong and all your unsupported, undocumented, unproven, so-called “Drs.” and alleged scholars are right.

Do you plan on posting any credible documentation or evidence, any time in the future?

 

[OldShepherd]

Linen,
All your so-called scholars say over and over again that "aion" never means eternal. Here are the entries from the Liddell-Scott-Jones lexicon of classical Greek.

• 
  aiônios , on, also a, on Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:--lasting for an age (aiôn 11 ), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. aïdios, Plot.3.7.3), methê Pl.R. 363d ; anôlethron . . all' ouk aiônion Id.Lg.904a , cf. Epicur. Sent.28; ai. kata psuchên ochlêsis Id.Nat.131 G.; kaka, deina, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; ai. amoibais basanisthêsomenoi ib.19; tou ai. theou Ep.Rom. 16.26 , Ti.Locr.96c; ou chroniê mounon . . all' aiôniê Aret.CA1.5 ; ai. diathêkê, nomimon, prostagma, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; zôê Ev.Matt.25.46 , Porph.Abst.4.20; kolasis Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; pro chronôn ai.2 Ep.Tim. 1.9 : opp. proskairos, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.
  2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, gumnasiarchos CPHerm.62 .
  3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.
  4. Adv. -iôs eternally, nous akinêtos ai. panta ôn Procl.Inst.172 , cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, misein Sch.E.Alc.338.
  5. aiônion, to, = aeizôon to mega, Ps.-Dsc.4.88.
  
  http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=#2818
  
  aiônizô , to be eternal, Phot., Suid.; to be eternalized, Dam.Pr.105.
  
  aiônisma , to, perpetual memorial, Ostr.1148.
  
  aiôno-bi^os , on, immortal, title of Egyptian kings, Ptolemaios OGI90.4 (Rosetta, ii B. C.), PMag.Par.1.154; of God, PMag.Lond. 46.176,482.
  
  aiônophthalmos , on, seeing with eternal eyes, PMag.Lond.46.465.
  
  aiôno-polokratôr , oros, ho, eternal ruler of the heavens, PMag.Berol.1.201.

I am still waiting for some kind of evidence or proof from all your so-called scholars.

 

[FineLinen]

Our dear Old Shepherd, evidently the "so-called Scholars, all Doctors of equal distinction with Liddell-Scott-Jones are not in agreement! It appears mankind will go on believing what they like. I believe you to be an honorable man, pursuing what you truly believe is the will of God for His creation. With the confidence that you will follow His voice from the Holy of Holies I will leave it there with no further discussion on aionios.

"My deep definition of sovereignty---He is God, and we are not!"

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
Our dear Old Shepherd, evidently the "so-called Scholars, all Doctors of equal distinction with Liddell-Scott-Jones are not in agreement! It appears mankind will go on believing what they like. I believe you to be an honorable man, pursuing what you truly believe is the will of God for His creation. With the confidence that you will follow His voice from the Holy of Holies I will leave it there with no further discussion on aionios.

No they are NOT all of "equal distinction". None of your so-called doctors are known for their exclusive work with Biblical languages and produced no evidence or proof of their spurious assertions on the meaning of "ainoios" or other Greek words. None of your so-called scholars, unlike Robertson, Edersheim, TDNT, BAGD, LSJ, etc., cited one single Greek language resource, ancient or modern, made absolutely no mention of any documentary manuscript evidence. The followers of Charlie Russell and Joe Smith all blindly, without question, follow their teachings because that is what they WANT to believe. I believe the preponderance of evidence NOT the "don't worry be happy, feel good" teachings of false teachers.

 

[FineLinen]

Greetings again Old Shepherd. The followers of Charlie Russell and Joe Smith are not on trial here. The scholars have always been in contention; being men and women make each of them less than perfect in the eyes of our Father. I am now looking at a man who teaches as professor in a prestigious Divinity School of Theology, and is an ordained Presbyterian minister. I will not quote his work, nor others, because you refuse to listen. Making statements like "these would be scholars" will simply not do, my brother. They may indeed be wrong, and your "would be Scholars" may indeed be wrong....they all may indeed be wrong! But each of these individuals have earned their degrees and must be heard.  I know this, however, there is ample evidence to me that our Lord does not come to this broken earth to make things worse. He comes to make His blessings flow far as the curse is found! And that hope fills me with worship and praise. I have no desire to feel good or not to worry. I want to know what our Father cherishes. You infer He will torment the vast majority of His creation, with your brethren listed earlier. Even if our Lord tormented for the endless eons one single enemy, His character would be in question for any half-descent man. Can you give one single Scripture in the Old Covenant that declares that shoel is a place of everlasting torment. Can you prove that Shoel is more than the grave? There are only 31 Scriptures translated hell from shoel. Please name one that demonstrates "eternal" torment.


I do very much appreciate your hard work on these threads. Your grasp of the Ancient Words is remarkable. I hope to be able to use your needed assistance in coming days. May our Lord continue to bless and keep you and yours....David

"My definition of sovereignty--He is God, and we are not."

 

[ikester7579]

So who is smarter, God or the scholars? Man will pick and choose what he or she wants to believe about God's word. But this will have no bearing of how we will be judged on judgement day.

Make your own religions if you must. But there is only one God.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
Greetings again Old Shepherd. The followers of Charlie Russell and Joe Smith are not on trial here.

Just pointing out the similarity between your "scholarship" and theirs. You have ignored every major language resource I cited and offered the undocumented, unsupported, unproven opinions of your favorite teachers, just as they do.

Suppose someone said to you in German "Gesundheit" and you wanted to look it up to find out what it meant. The dictionary defines it as "health". But 5-6 people you know, who have NO demonstrated German knowledge say, "No it means sick." Who are you going to believe? Because this is not a critical faith issue, more than likely you will believe the dictionary. BUT because the issue, we are discussing, IS in fact a critical faith issue you disregard your own common sense and make a conscious decision to disregard all the lexicons and concordances, etc. and believe that which agrees with your presuppositions. Who is seeking truth here?

The scholars have always been in contention; being men and women make each of them less than perfect in the eyes of our Father.

BUT in most instances there are proven methods to determine which is correct.

I am now looking at a man who teaches as professor. . . in I will not quote his work, nor others, because you refuse to listen.

I gave you my reason for dismissing ALL the "scholars" you have cited thus far. NO proof, NO evidence, NO documentation, just people with initials behind their name stating an opinion. I asked you how many of those "so-called" scholars are known for their work in Biblical Greek. MacDonald wrote fiction, I don't think he was a Greek scholar.

Making statements like "these would be scholars" will simply not do, my brother.

I said "so-called" scholars. Please get it right.

I have no desire to feel good or not to worry. I want to know what our Father cherishes.

Then why do you refuse to use the same objective, common sense, approach to the Bible that you would (I assume) to any other subject you wish to know the truth about?

You infer He will torment the vast majority of His creation, with your brethren listed earlier. Even if our Lord tormented for the endless eons one single enemy, His character would be in question for any half-descent man.

Everything I have stated I have proved from every major Greek language resource, ancient Jewish writings, and the writings of the early church. You on the other hand ignore the literal words of the Bible and resort to rationalistic, convoluted reasoning, reading your own presuppostions into the text.

Can you give one single Scripture in the Old Covenant that declares that shoel is a place of everlasting torment. Can you prove that Shoel is more than the grave? There are only 31 Scriptures translated hell from shoel. Please name one that demonstrates "eternal" torment.

Irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant! I quoted a lengthy article from the Jewish Encyclopedia on Gehenna and also Alfred Edersheim citing the Rabbinical schools of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus. Here is another appropriate article from JE on Eschatology. Please feel free to ignore it as well.

• 
  ESCHATOLOGY, The Last Judgment.
  The Messianic kingdom, being at best of mere earthly splendor, could not form the end, and so the Great Judgment was placed at its close and following the Resurrection. Those that would not accept the belief in bodily resurrection probably dwelt with greater emphasis on the judgment of the souls after death (see Abraham, Testament of; Philo; Sadducees; Wisdom, Book of). Jewish eschatology combined the Resurrection with the Last Judgment: "God summons the soul from heaven and couples it again on earth with the body to bring man to judgment" (Sanh. 91b, after Ps. l. 4). In the tenth week, that is, the seventh millennium, in the seventh part, that is, after the Messianic reign, there will be the great eternal judgment, to be followed by a new heaven with the celestial powers in sevenfold splendor (Enoch, xci. 15; comp. lxxxiv. 4, xciv. 9, xcviii. 10, civ. 5). On "the day of the Great Judgment" angels and men alike will be judged, and the books opened in which the deeds of men are recorded (lxxxi. 4, lxxxix. 70 et seq., xc. 20, ciii. 3 et seq., civ. 1, cviii. 3) for life or for death; books in which all sins are written down, and the treasures of righteousness for the righteous, will be opened on that day (Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxiv. 1). "All the secret thoughts of men will then be brought to light." "Not long-suffering and mercy, but rigid justice, will prevail in this Last Judgment"; Gehenna and Paradise will appear opposite each other for the one or the other to enter (II Esd. vii. 33 et seq.).
  This end will come "through no one but God alone" (ib. vi. 6). "No longer will time be granted for repentance, or for prayer and intercession by saints and prophets, but the Only One will give decision according to His One Law, whether for life or for everlasting destruction" (Syriac Apoc. Baruch, lxxxv. 9-12). The righteous ones will be recorded in the Book of Life (Book of Jubilees, xxx. 22, xxxvi. 10; Abot ii. 1; "Shepherd of Hermas," i. 32; Luke x. 20; Rev. iii. 5, xiii. 8, xx. 15). The righteous deeds and the sins will be weighed against each other in the scales of justice (Pesiḥ. R. 20; Ḳid. 40b). According to the Testament of Abraham (A. xiii.), there are two angels, one on either side: one writes down the merits, the other the demerits, while Doḳiel, the archangel, weighs the two kinds against each other in a balance; and another, Pyroel ("angel of fire"), tries the works of men by fire, whether they are consumed or not; then the just souls are carried among the saved ones; those found unjust, among those who will meet their punishment. Those whose merits and demerits are equal remain in a middle state, and the intercession of meritorious men such as Abraham saves them and brings them into paradise (Testament of Abraham, A. xiv.). According to the sterner doctrine of the Shammaites, these souls must undergo a process of purgation by fire; "they enter Gehenna, swing themselves up again, and are healed." This view, based upon Zech. xiii. 9, seems to be something like the Christian purgatory. According to the Hillelites, "He who is plenteous in mercy inclines the scale of justice toward mercy"—a view which shows (against Gunkel, "Der Prophet Ezra," 1900, p. 15) that Judaism believed in divine mercy independently of the Pauline faith (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3). As recorder of the deeds of men in the heavenly books, "Enoch, the scribe of righteousness," is mentioned in Testament of Abraham, xi.; Lev. R. xiv. has Elijah and the Messiah as heavenly recorders, a survival of the national Jewish eschatology.
  Gehenna.
  There is no Scriptural basis for the belief in retribution for the soul after death; this was supplied by the Babylonians and Persians, and received a Jewish coloring from the word "Gehinnom" (the valley of Hinnom), made detestable by the fires of the Moloch sacrifices of Manasseh (II Kings xxiii. 10). According to 'Er. 19a, the smoke from subterranean fires came up through the earth in this place; "there are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers and of those who work wickedness and pervert the words of the Prophets" (Enoch, cviii. 6). Gehinnom has a double purpose, annihilation (Enoch, xciv. 1 et seq.) and eternal pain (II Esd. vii. 36 et seq.). Gehinnom has seven names: "Sheol," "Abbadon," "Pit of Corruption," "Horrible Pit," "Mire of Clay," "Shadow of Death," and "Nether Parts of the Earth" (Jonah ii. 3; Ps. lxxxviii. 12 [A.V. 11], xvi. 10, xl. 3 [A.V. 2], cvii. 14; Ezek. xxvi. 20). It is also called "Tophet" (Isa. xxx. 33). It has seven departments, one beneath the other (Soṭah 10b). There are seven kinds of pains (II Esd. vii. 81 et seq.). According to rabbinical tradition, thieves are condemned to fill an unfillable tank; the impure sink into a quagmire; thosethat sinned with the tongue are suspended thereby; some are suspended by the feet, hair, or eyelids; others eat hot coals and sand; others are devoured by worms, or placed alternately in snow and fire. On Sabbath they are respited (see Dumah). These conceptions, ascribed chiefly to Joshua ben Levi, have their parallel in the apocalyptic literature appropriated by the Christian Church (see Gehenna). The punishment of the wicked endures twelve months, according to R. Akiba; the generation of the Flood will in time be released (Gen. R. xxviii.), but the punishment of those who have led others into heresy or dealt treacherously against the Law will never cease (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 5).
  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=460&letter=E

I do very much appreciate your hard work on these threads. Your grasp of the Ancient Words is remarkable. I hope to be able to use your needed assistance in coming days. May our Lord continue to bless and keep you and yours....David

Rather than just "appreciate" it I would prefer that you actually read it, interact with, and respond to it. Carl.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
Greetings again Old Shepherd.

I do very much appreciate your hard work on these threads. Your grasp of the Ancient Words is remarkable. I hope to be able to use your needed assistance in coming days. May our Lord continue to bless and keep you and yours....David

"Houston, we have a problem." I already posted the above response but something just did not set right. I was off doing other things when suddenly it struck me. Do you not see any contradiction or hypocricy in this statement? If my grasp of the ancient languages is so remarkable then why do you still reject my conclusions on the word "ainious", the word that I spent the most time and posted the most documentation for? If my conclusions are wrong then why would you later call on me for assistance?

• 
  "There is something rotten in the state of Denmark." Hamlet, 1.4.100

 

[FineLinen]

Good morning again, Old Shepherd. I do apologize, for you did indeed posted "so called scholars"....the net result is the same, your scholars are "real" scholars....the others are only "so called scholars"....we will dismiss them and their doctorates as "so called". You will find that George MacDonald was not a Greek and Hebrew "scholar". I will clarify only one point regarding him and his writings. George MacDonald did not only write fiction. He ministered and wrote remarkable words of life. That Life has flowed to many individuals through the years, such as Oswald Chambers and C.S. Lewis among others. C.S. Lewis has been the source of many individuals coming to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He, for some of us on these threads, has been a great blessing. His words also have lived on! For you to place George MacDonald with men like Karesh and Jim Jones....oh Shepherd, I will not attempt to answer such folly! You posted...

quote:
Can you give one single Scripture in the Old Covenant that declares that shoel is a place of everlasting torment. Can you prove that Shoel is more than the grave? There are only 31 Scriptures translated hell from shoel. Please name one that demonstrates "eternal" torment.

Irrelevant, irrelevant, and irrelevant! I quoted a lengthy article from the Jewish Encyclopedia on Gehenna and also Alfred Edersheim citing the Rabbinical schools of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus. Here is another appropriate article from JE on Eschatology. Please feel free to ignore it as well.

You cannot site one instance of our Father declaring "eternal" torture in the Old Covenant, and yet, you place the traditions of the Pharisees before us, and quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Rabbinical Schools. And what are we to do? Replace the irrelevant word of the Living One, with the J.E. & the Pharisees with the words....what were those words?

"Irrelevant, irrelevant, irrelevant!"

Not one single Scripture can you present before us from the Old Covenant that declares our Father whose mercy endureth forever, torments His enemies forever! No not one!  You cast aside our Fathers words "For a short time I was angry with you" and replace it with....My enemies will I torment forever! The song of the angels...."Your heart will thrill with joy and many will be glad that He was born" becomes displaced with the vast majority of men's hearts will be very sorry He was born! The issue is that not one single Scripture in the Old Covenant declares eternal torment....NOT ONE!

"For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, which is by one Man, Jesus Christ, overflowed far more richly upon the rest of mankind."

"Its effect is vastly exceeded by the grace of God and the gift that came to so many by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ."  N.E.B.

"God's mercy and His gift given through the favour of the one man Jesus Christ have far more powerfully affected mankind."  Goodspeed

"Far more were the loving-kindness of God, and the free gift given in the loving-kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, lavished upon the whole race."  TCNT

"MUCH MORE in the grace of the one man Jesus Christ has the freeness of God's bounty overflowed unto the many."  Con.

"The grace of God and the free gift which comes by the grace of the one Man Jesus Christ overflowed far more richly upon the rest of mankind."  James Moffatt

Question?

Are we to assume that the overflowing grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ does not flow upon the rest of mankind? Does the entrance of the Son of God into the world, announced by the song of the angels, overflow in MUCH MORE, or does the scope of the Redeemer of mankind reach a few chosen ones who have been fortunate enough to hear His voice? Does the Old Covenant Law,  declaring not one word regarding everlasting torture, now become enhanced by the arrival of the predestined Lord of the Universe?

The Pharisees say yes! The Jews say yes! And, the angelic host who surround His throne with their faces and feet covered, sing in antiphonal chorus....

Holy.....Holy.....Holy.....The whole earth is full of His glory

As they bow before Him!