Does hell exist?

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
Greetings again OldShepherd...

"While shoel can mean simply the grave, there are MANY verses in which it is used for an eternal place of punishment."

FineLinen

You have the list of all scriptures of the Old Covenant with sheol before you.  We stand anxiously awaiting for your presentation of the "many" scriptures that are used for a place of "eternal punishment" in shoel.

Posted above. Your ignoring them and pretending I didn't post them won't make them go away. When you address my posts, I will consider responding to your asinine, inane, fallacious questions. How are they fallcious? Because they are all asked out-of-context. Kinda like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

How does beating someone with a rod prevent them from dying and going to sheol? How do the dead kings and rulers move and rise up and speak to the king of Babylon when he goes into sheol?

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Linen
Isaiah 65:23-24. "And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

The unquenchable fire here spoken of is in this world, as is evident from the phrase "new moon" and "Sabbath." Again, Jer. 17:27. "But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."

Jeremiah is not Isaiah, and Isaiah is not Jeremiah. You have offered no proof they were speaking about the same incident. Nothing in Isaiah states those being eternally punished where in this world. Also note in Isaiah it is “their fire” and “their worm” In Jeremiah the fire destroys palaces, not people, and the verse doesn’t say their fire but “it shall not be quenched.” And you keep ignoring how the ancient Jews interpreted their scriptures. They had it wrong but you got it right although you couldn't locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it.

Canon Farrar, in "Eternal Hope," "Consequences of Sin," says: "The exression 'quenchless fire,'--for the phrase 'that never shall be quenched,' is a simple mistranslation--is taken from Isa. 66:24, and is purely a figure of speech, as it is there, or as it is in Homer's Iliad, 16:123."

This one is the best of the lot. No proof that Isaiah is a "figure of speech." You blow off the writings of pre-Christian Judaism and the rabbinical schools of Jesus time, as “Pharisees” and even ignore the early church. But you post a reference to a pagan Greek poet as proof how to interpret the N.T. As I said everything which contradicts you is wrong but you will dig up any piece of garbage and post it here as proof.

 

[Zyon]

Does Hell exist? Yes, it's right here on earth.

 

[FineLinen]

Mornin' to ya, Old Shepherd. You have been an absolute delight! I have learned so much from you in the past couple of weeks, muchos gracias!

I failed to realize that Isaiah is not Jeremiah; they are from different planets I assume, and certainly not under the same anointing of the Holy One. Are you declaring that the Very Reverend F.W. Farrar D.D., canon and Dean of Canterberry, is presenting "any piece of garbage", or only Homer's Iliad, or both?

I did find your quotes "Houston we have a problem" and....

"There is something rotten in Denmark" some of your best work to date.

You do not know of George MacDonald, you do not know of Andrew Jukes and their "scribblings", have you ever heard of C.S. Lewis?

"The hardness of God is kinder that the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."  (Surprised By Joy)

 

[FineLinen]

Zyon...you posted...

Does hell exist? Yes, it's right here on earth.

FineLinen

We are surrounded with suffering in all dimensions. The Scripture declares we have "been made subject to futility/decay/imperfection/ transitoriness NOT WILLINGLY, or not by any choice of its own, but by the will of Him who so subjected it." And the hope that bathes such subjection?

"Because the universe itself will be rescued/delivered from its bondage to decay/slavery to death/ shackles of mortality/ the tyranny of change and decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8

Hell Has Been Found

A geological group who drilled a hole about 14.4 kilometers deep in the crust of the earth are saying that they heard human screams. Screams have been heard from the condemned souls from earth’s deepest hole. Terrified scientists are afraid they have let loose the evil powers of hell up to the earth’s surface.

"The information we are gathering is so surprising, that we are sincerely afraid of what we might find down there," stated Mr. Azzacov, the manager of the project to drill a 14.4 kilometer hole in remote Siberia.The geologists were dumbfounded. After they had drilled several kilometers through the earth’s crust, the drill bit suddenly began to rotate wildly. "There is only one explanation—that the deep center of the earth is hollow," the surprised Azzacov explained.

The second surprise was the high temperature they discovered in the earth’s center. "The calculations indicate the given temperature was about 1,100 degrees Celsius, or over 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit," Dr. Azzacov points out. "This is far more then we expected. It seems almost like an inferno of fire is brutally going on in the center of the earth."

"The last discovery was nevertheless the most shocking to our ears, so much so that the scientists are afraid to continue the project. We tried to listen to the earth’s movements at certain intervals with supersensitive microphones, which were let down through the hole. What we heard turned those logically thinking scientists into a trembling ruins. It was a sometimes a weak, but high pitched sound which we thought to be coming from our own equipment," explained Dr. Azzacov. "But after some adjustments we comprehended that indeed the sound came from the earth’s interior. We could hardly believe our own ears. We heard a human voice, screaming in pain. Even though one voice was discernible, we could hear thousands, perhaps millions, in the background, of suffering souls screaming. After this ghastly discovery, about half of the scientists quit because of fear. Hopefully, that which is down there will stay there," Dr. Azzacov added.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
Mornin' to ya, Old Shepherd. You have been an absolute delight! I have learned so much from you in the past couple of weeks, muchos gracias!

I failed to realize that Isaiah is not Jeremiah; they are from different planets I assume, and certainly not under the same anointing of the Holy One.

Says Linen as he misrepresents what I said and ignores the context of the remark.

Are you declaring that the Very Reverend F.W. Farrar D.D., canon and Dean of Canterberry, is presenting "any piece of garbage", or only Homer's Iliad, or both?

Again a misrepresentation I did not mention anyone except Homer.

You do not know of George MacDonald, you do not know of Andrew Jukes and their "scribblings", have you ever heard of C.S. Lewis?

I read up on MacDonald he wrote fiction and as you pointed out sermons. Are they noted Bible scholars and since the discussion hinges on the definition of Greek words, are they Greek scholars? Had you been paying attention I identified my sources, not just mentioning their names. Gill was a noted Greek and Hebrew scholar of the 18th century and wrote a complete commentary of the whole Bible, which I have been quoting. Your juvenile remarks about him do little to refute his studies.

Let me also point out once again you dismiss out of hand, the writings of the pre-Christian Jews, first century Rabbinical writings, and the early church fathers, but you quote Homer and Eusebius and other 4th century writers. The criterion is if they agree with you they are right , if not then they are wrong.

 

[FineLinen]

Greetings again OldShepherd....

Jeremiah is not Isaiah, and Isaiah is not Jeremiah. You have offered no proof they were speaking about the same incident. Nothing in Isaiah states those being eternally punished where in this world. Also note in Isaiah it is “their fire” and “their worm” In Jeremiah the fire destroys palaces, not people, and the verse doesn’t say their fire but “it shall not be quenched.” And you keep ignoring how the ancient Jews interpreted their scriptures. They had it wrong but you got it right although you couldn't locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it.
quote:

Canon Farrar, in "Eternal Hope," "Consequences of Sin," says: "The exression 'quenchless fire,'--for the phrase 'that never shall be quenched,' is a simple mistranslation--is taken from Isa. 66:24, and is purely a figure of speech, as it is there, or as it is in Homer's Iliad, 16:123."

This one is the best of the lot. No proof that Isaiah is a "figure of speech." You blow off the writings of pre-Christian Judaism and the rabbinical schools of Jesus time, as “Pharisees” and even ignore the early church. But you post a reference to a pagan Greek poet as proof how to interpret the N.T. As I said everything which contradicts you is wrong but you will dig up any piece of garbage and post it here as proof.

FineLinen

I am proud of ya, OldShepherd, there may be hope yet!..."I read up on MacDonald." He sure was another Karesh and Jim Jones eh? I will be getting into the pre-Christian Jews and the Pharisees a little later, but you were far from clear as to what was "any old piece of garbage." You responded to what the Very Reverend Dr. Farrar had written!

The saintly Pharisees were a step above the Pagans, but by golly I am having a hard time seeing it as a step above. What was it you declared?...."Jesus did NOT declare the Pharisees taught the traditions of men." "False!" "Jesus told His followers to do what they said, not what they did." Why don't you give us a list of Scriptures declaring the great admiration the King of the Ages had for the traditions of the Pharisees? And those saintly Jews, why, they crucified the Lord of Glory! Oh, Shepherd, this gets better all the time!

"The world does not understand theology or dogma, but it understands love and sympathy."  D. L. Moody

"God sends no one empty away except those who are full of themselves."  Dwight Lyman Moody   

 

 

[adventwatch]

Hell is the grave.

The lake of fire does not exist yet, but it will.

 

Joseph(adventwatch)

*

 

 

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Linen
I failed to realize that Isaiah is not Jeremiah; they are from different planets I assume, and certainly not under the same anointing of the Holy One. Are you declaring that the Very Reverend F.W. Farrar D.D., canon and Dean of Canterberry, is presenting "any piece of garbage", or only Homer's Iliad, or both?

The responses which you were misquoting and misrepresenting.

Canon Farrar, in "Eternal Hope," "Consequences of Sin," says: "The exression 'quenchless fire,'--for the phrase 'that never shall be quenched,' is a simple mistranslation--is taken from Isa. 66:24, and is purely a figure of speech, as it is there, or as it is in Homer's Iliad, 16:123."

• This one is the best of the lot. No proof that Isaiah is a "figure of speech." You blow off the writings of pre-Christian Judaism and the rabbinical schools of Jesus time, as “Pharisees” and even ignore the early church. But you post a reference to a pagan Greek poet as proof how to interpret the N.T. As I said everything which contradicts you is wrong but you will dig up any piece of garbage and post it here as proof.
  
  Jeremiah is not Isaiah, and Isaiah is not Jeremiah. You have offered no proof they were speaking about the same incident. Nothing in Isaiah states those being eternally punished where in this world. Also note in Isaiah it is “their fire” and “their worm” In Jeremiah the fire destroys palaces, not people, and the verse doesn’t say their fire but “it shall not be quenched.” And you keep ignoring how the ancient Jews interpreted their scriptures. They had it wrong but you got it right although you couldn't locate a Hebrew verb if your life depended on it.

Reread my post and see if you can point to where I specifically referred to anything other than Homer. And I repeat my comment/question where does Farrar present any proof or evidence that, "The exression 'quenchless fire,'--for the phrase 'that never shall be quenched,' is a simple mistranslation--is taken from Isa. 66:24, and is purely a figure of speech,. . ."?

Your response suggests that I stated or implied that Jeremiah and Isaiah did not write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Can you back up this false charge? The only response you can make to my post is to misquote me, misrepresent what I say, and cast false aspersions. This is the typical reaction that all false heretical groups ultimately resort to. Since you cannot understand what I posted before here are additional thoughts. And I repeat you have only responded to about 10% of what I have posted. Surely you can dig up enough material from all those “scholars” you have quoted to answer every point I have raised.

• 
  Gill’s commentary[Isaiah] began to prophesy about A. M. 3236, and about seven hundred and seventy years before Christ. [139 years before Jeremiah] Abulpharagius, an Arabic writer, says {i}, he lived an hundred and twenty years, eighty five of which he prophesied. It is a generally received tradition with the Jews, that he lived to the time of Manasseh, and that he was sawn asunder by him; and which has been embraced by the ancient Christian writers, and is thought to be referred to in #Heb 11:37.
  
  Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
  23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
  24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
  
  Note, this is not talking about something just being “called”eternal because God is eternal, not God’s worm but “their worm” and not God’s fire but “their fire”
  
  Gill’s commentary He began to prophesy in the thirteenth year of Josiah’s reign; in 3375 A.M. or before the era of Christ 629, (139 years after Isaiah) according both to Bishop Usher {e} and Mr. Whiston {f}, and the Universal History {g}; and according to Mr. Bedford {h} 627. Epiphanius {i}, or to the writer that bears his name, he was stoned to death by the people at Taphnas in Egypt, and was buried where Pharaoh dwelt. Abulpharagius, an Arabic writer {k}, says, that he went to Egypt, where some of the Jews took him and put him into a well, and afterwards took him out and stoned him,
  
  Jer 17:24 And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
  25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.
  26 And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of the LORD.
  27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Isaiah flourished 770 BC, 129 years before Jeremiah, and his prophecy was about the “new heavens and the new earth.” The fire he spoke of was the burning carcasses of those who had transgressed against God.

Jeremiah flourished 629 BC. The fire he spoke of burned palaces in the Jerusalem of his day, not bodies.

You twist the scriptures trying to force an unnatural meaning on them, trying to pretend the two prophecies are talking about the same thing. This points out your hypocrisy and dishonesty very clearly, two different prophets, two different eras, 129 years apart, two different events, one contemporary with Jeremiah, the other hundreds of years in the future, but you insist they are the same thing. On the other hand in the N.T., when Jesus uses the same word “aionios” to describe eternal punishment and everlasting life, in the same sentence, you insist that the word “aionios” means two completely different things.

• 
  Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting “aionios” punishment: but the righteous into life eternal “aionios”.

According to your source the “unquenched fire” is only a figure of speech. Jesus quoted Isa 66:24 at least three times in the N.T. and he reiterated the warning five times. Why would the Son of God repeat one warning five times, in six subsequent sentences, if it was only a figure of speech?

• 
  Matt 9:43 the fire that never shall be quenched:
  44 the fire is not quenched.
  45 cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
  46 the fire is not quenched.
  47 be cast into hell fire:
  48 the fire is not quenched.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
You do not know of George MacDonald, you do not know of Andrew Jukes and their "scribblings", have you ever heard of C.S. Lewis?

Irrelevant! Where am I required to know everybody you refer to? I have asked you repeatedly, are these "scholars" you are quoting noted recognized Bible historians or Greek/Hebrew language authorities? Do their exalted, but unsupported, undocumented, unproven, opinions on the translation of the Biblical languages carry more authority than the Theological Word Book of the O.T., BAGD lexicon, Theological Dictionary of the N.T., BDB lexicon, etc? If so on what basis? Good preachers, great preachers can be wrong. But if you want to classify the sources I referred to as wrong then you have a lot of work cut out for you.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
What was it you declared?...."Jesus did NOT declare the Pharisees taught the traditions of men." "False!" "Jesus told His followers to do what they said, not what they did."

Here is another deliberate false accusation. Back this up. Show the post where I made this statement. This is the last ditch position for every cult and heresy. When their canned regurgitated arguments start running out of steam, start making false statements and false accusations about what their opponent says.

"God sends no one empty away except those who are full of themselves." Dwight Lyman Moody

If the shoe fits.

 

[FineLinen]

Mornin to ya, Old Shepherd....Pay attention now my friend!

quote:
Originally posted by FineLinen OldShepherd....The fact is we need to stick to what the Scriptures teach regarding Gehenna, Shoel, Tartarus and Hades. Furthermore, our Lord declared that "you, (Jews) invalidate the word of God because of your traditions."

Said the man that keeps throwing quotes from Eby, Macdonald, and others of his sect at me.

quote:
We should also point out that Jesus did not believe ANYTHING like the Jews of his day, and HE defines belief not them!

False statement! Jesus did differ with the scribes and pharisees on the interpretation of some scriptures but He did NOT differ on everything.

quote:
The pharisees got their views on eternal torment from pagan religions and philosophies, not the Old Testament, a fact that is easily presented.

Then present your facts.
quote:
Jesus clearly said they were teaching the traditions of men, not the word of God, so their "definitions" as to what the fire was, or was not, is literally useless in determining if Jesus taught it or not.

False! Jesus told his followers to do what they said NOT what they do! So many of their teachings were correct. And that is what the Talmud has to do with this. The Talmud shows us how the Jews of Jesus day and earlier interpreted the scriptures and put them into practice.


Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

You will now be reduced to 70 X seven minus one. 

Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward in heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for He is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked."

"The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance by their fellow-suffer the devil and the d a m n e d rejoicing over their misery."  Bishop Newman (Catechetical Sermons)

"This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed."  Samuel Hopkins

 

 

 

[KarmaChameleon]

I believe that hell is the return to non-existance, while heaven is the continuation of life. "Hell-fire" means the fire in the pits of the ancient Jewish communities where animals' bodies were burned to death. To be burned with hell-fire is to have your physical existance removed, as well as your spiritual one. To be "saved" is to be spared from death.

 

[LightBearer]

Close enough KarmaChameleon.

Very simple and clear Bible statements say.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death (Not concsious torment), but the gift God gives is everlasting life (The opposite of death.  Conscious existence) by Christ Jesus our Lord".

 
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all".

Genesis 3:19 "For dust you are and to dust you will return".

Adam came from non-existenc to existence and went back to non-existence.
 

*Brackets mine*


 

 

[God of Love]

Does Hell Exist?

Hell does exist, but not in the manner you may have been told.  Hell is not a physical place, but rather an eternal "non-quenchable" state-of-realization and regret for our actions while "living".  After "dying", you are shown a review of your life.  In effect, you are "judged" by your earthly works.  You see the good and bad you have done, and how your actions caused others unnecessary pain or harm.  You realize how your fears (aka Satan and the basis of "sin") prevented you from following Christ's example and treating all of God's creation with the unconditional love of known to be God.  In this manner, we chose to be "with" God (through Love), or seperate from God (through Fear).

In effect, with each decision you make using your God-given "free will", you choose whether or not you will spent in eternity in "Hell" (regret).

Through sincere repentence, you can avoid "Hell".

By following this code, and the example of Christ, you need not worry.

Hope that helps.

God of Love

  

 

[lared]

Lightbearer,

May I add another very clear and simple scripture to understand on the subject?

(John 3:16) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Notice the two alternatives: perish or everlasting life.

If there truly was a place of torment or hellfire for the wicked.....they too, would receive everlasting life........just at a different temperature.

Sincerely, Lared

 

[drmmjr]

God of Love,

Have you had an opportunity to read lared's post that came after your's. Please note John 3:16. The gift of God is eternal life. If a person doesn't get this gift, then how can they be in an eternal "non-quenchable" state-of-realization and regret for our actions while "living".

No where in the Scriptures does it say that we have an eternal or immortal soul.

A person either gets the gift of eternal life or doesn't. If they don't, then they can't be in some state of realization and regret now can they.

God wants everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth. God wants everyone to receive this gift of eternal/everlasting life. But there are those who won't accept this gift. God is a merciful God. He doesn't want anyone to suffer for eternity, so those who don't accept the gift are thrown into the Lake of fire to be destroyed.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by lared
Lightbearer,

May I add another very clear and simple scripture to understand on the subject?

(John 3:16) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Notice the two alternatives: perish or everlasting life.

If there truly was a place of torment or hellfire for the wicked.....they too, would receive everlasting life........just at a different temperature.

Sincerely, Lared

Lared:  That sums it up quite nicely. 

Jehovah gave life to mankind out of his love and desire to share this precious gift with others.  Death is simply the removal or taking away of this precious gift of life or conscious existence, nothing more.  To accuse God of going further and keeping the wicked alive for the purpose of torturing them eternally is not only unscriptural but completely beyond my comprehension and bordering on the Satanic, IMHO.

Best regards.

LB  

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
What was it you declared?...."Jesus did NOT declare the Pharisees taught the traditions of men." "False!" "Jesus told His followers to do what they said, not what they did."

We should also point out that Jesus did not believe ANYTHING like the Jews of his day, and HE defines belief not them!

False statement! Jesus did differ with the scribes and pharisees on the interpretation of some scriptures but He did NOT differ on everything.

I’m still waiting for proof that I made this statement which you put in quotations. “Jesus did NOT declare the Pharisees taught the traditions of men."”

The pharisees got their views on eternal torment from pagan religions and philosophies, not the Old Testament, a fact that is easily presented.

Then present your facts. I still haven’t seen the facts to support this assertion and no proof that I made the above statement.

Jesus clearly said they were teaching the traditions of men, not the word of God, so their "definitions" as to what the fire was, or was not, is literally useless in determining if Jesus taught it or not.

False! Jesus told his followers to do what they said NOT what they do! So many of their teachings were correct. And that is what the Talmud has to do with this. The Talmud shows us how the Jews of Jesus day and earlier interpreted the scriptures and put them into practice.

Still waiting for proof that I made this statement. Quotation marks means an exact quote. Where is that exact quote? “Jesus did NOT declare the Pharisees taught the traditions of men." What I was saying false to is the last sentence. “their "definitions" as to what the fire was, or was not, is literally useless in determining if Jesus taught it or not.”

The red print in the following scriptures indicates that Jesus is speaking.

1. 
   [*]Matt 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they[scribes and Pharisees, vs. 2] bid (epo) you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
   
   2036epw epo ep’-o
   a primary verb (used only in the definite past tense, the others being borrowed from 2046, 4483, and 5346:: v
   AV - say 859, speak 57, tell 41, command 8, bid 5, misc 6, vr say 1; 977
   1) to speak, say
   
   [*]Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, . . . these ought ye to have done, (Lu 11:42)
   
   [*]Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
   
   [*]Ac 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
   
   [*]Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
   2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
   3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
   4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
   5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Jesus approved of the Pharisee’s teaching on tithing, Matt 23;23 and Luke 11:42. So this statement is false. "Jesus did not believe ANYTHING like the Jews of his day." There were Pharisees who were Christians, Act 15:5. Paul called himself a Pharisee, after his conversion, Act 23:6. Jesus did not, and the Word of God does not, condemn or reject all the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees! Nobody, can be 100% wrong about the Bible, 100% of the time! God has reserved a remnant of His people. Those Pharisees you arbitrarily reject, simple because they are Pharisees, may well be part of that remnant.

As I pointed out before, you took one of Jesus teachings, about a specific situation, and tried to make it into a universal rule, which is clearly contradicted by the words of Jesus, Himself, and Paul above. If you want to dismiss any taught or written by the Pharisees, you must prove that particular point or subject was condemned by Jesus or clearly violates the word of God. And, despite the convoluted fallacious reasoning you have posted, Jesus’ teaching on hell and eternal punishment is clearly in line with and does not, at any time, contradict the teaching of pre-Christian Judaism or the teaching of Hillel and Shammai, the major pharisaical schools during his day. And once again I remind you that the teaching of the entire early church for the first three centuries also supports that teaching.

All you have done is post the opinions of some 19th and 20th century preachers/teachers whom you claim correctly interpret the word of God but do not present any proof or evidence. WWCG, UPCI, JW, and Later Daze Ain’ts, all claim they correctly interpret the scriptures too, they can’t all be right. And when I have presented historical evidence, you arbitrarily dismiss it because you claim it is from Pharisees. Even if the evidence is from Pharisees that in itself does not prove it false.

 

[FineLinen]

Good morning again, OldShepherd. Did you miss my point?

Quote By FineLinen

We should also point out that Jesus did not believe ANYTHING like the Jews of his day, and HE defines belief not them!

Old Shepherd Responds...

False statement! Jesus did differ with the scribes and pharisees on the interpretation of some scriptures but He did NOT differ on everything.


Quote by FineLinen

"Jesus clearly said they were teaching the traditions of men, not the word of God, so their "definitions" as to what the fire was, or was not, is literally useless in determining if Jesus taught it or not. "

Old Shepherd Responds

False! Jesus told his followers to do what they said NOT what they do! So many of their teachings were correct. And that is what the Talmud has to do with this. The Talmud shows us how the Jews of Jesus day and earlier interpreted the scriptures and put them into practice.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

A Donkey, An Old Man & A Boy

An old man, a boy and a donkey were going to town. The boy rode on the donkey and the old man walked. As they went along they passed some people who remarked it was a shame the old man was walking and the boy was riding.

The man and the boy thought maybe the critics were right, so they changed positions.

Later, they passed some people who remarked, "What a shame, he makes that little boy walk!"

Soon they passed some more people who thought they were stupid to walk when they had a decent donkey to ride. So, they both rode the donkey.

Now they passed some people who shamed them by saying how awful to put such a load on a poor donkey. The boy and man said they were probably right, so they decided to carry the donkey. 

As they crossed the bridge, they lost their grip on the animal and he fell into the river and drowned. 

The Moral Of The Story

If you try and please everyone, you might as well kiss your (donkey) good-bye."

You have now been reduced in forgiveness points to 70 X 7 Minus 2!

Things I Have Learned From The Old Shepherd

1. The PhD's are just some "dudes" opinion. 

2. There is a common sense to the Bible.

3. Isaiah is not Jeremiah.

4. "Do numbers indicate truth?"

5. "Answer your own questions, and I will tell you if you are right or not."


Edited for breaking Rule#1---"no flaming".
1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.