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Does hell exist?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mgairs, Dec 31, 2002.

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  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    You are grossly misrepresenting what I have said. I have not placed any extrabiblical writings before any scriptures. Rather I have proven the position of the historical church from preChristian and first century Jewish writings and the early church fathers. OTOH you have ignored the literal words of the N.T. for the unsupported, undocumented, unproven bare opinions of your pet "scholars".

    • Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

      The Targum is, “their souls shall not die;”
    I have already proven how the Jews understood this and similar passages. You should get your facts straight before making accusations.

    Oh BTW my point was that none of the "scholars" you mentioned are Greek scholars, and most notably MacDonald. Refer to my dictionary analogy.
     
  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    • 07585 שאול [email protected]’owl sheh-ole’ or שאל [email protected] sheh-ole’
      from 07592; TWOT - 2303c; n f
      AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65
      1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
      1a) the underworld
      1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
      1b1) place of no return
      1b2) without praise of God
      1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
      1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
      1b5) of the place of exile (fig)
      1b6) of extreme degradation in sin

      Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, (שאול/sheh-ole’) and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

      Ps 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
      17 The wicked shall be turned into hell (שאול/sheh-ole’), and all the nations that forget God.

    If שאול/sheh-ole’ is merely the grave, why are only the wicked and those who forget God sent there?

    • Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave (שאול/sheh-ole)” shall come up no more.[/I]

      Isa 38:18 For the grave (שאול/sheh-ole’) cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
    Do the sinners, the unrighteous, the wicked, those who forget God, get a second chance in sheh-ole’ to repent and turn to God? These two verses state that those in sheh-ole’, “ shall come up no more.” and “cannot hope for thy [God’s] truth.” If those who are in the “grave” cannot praise God, how can they repent and be taken to paradise?

    • Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

      Gill’s Commentary, Isa 66:24
      The Talmudists {t} observe from hence, that the wicked, even at the gate of hell, return not by repentance; for it is not said, that "have transgressed", but "that transgress"; for they transgress, and go on for ever; and so indeed the word may be rendered, "that transgress", or "are transgressing" {u}; for they interpret it of the d#mned in hell, as many do; and of whom the following clauses may be understood:
      {t} T. Bab. Erubim, fol. 19. 1. R. Hona in Midrash Tillim in Psal. i. 6.
      {u}הפשעים בי "praevaricantium in me", Pagninus, Montanus; "qui transgressi sunt contra me", Piscator; "deficientium a me", Cocceius.

      Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
      46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
      47
      And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
      48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    There are those who would have the world believe that when Jesus spoke these words from Isaiah 66:24, although He repeated His warning four times, He did not mean a literal burning hell. “Life eternal (aiwnion)”, in Matt 25:46 means a literal, eternal life, life without end. But supposedly “everlasting (aiwnion) punishment:” in the same sentence, using the exact same adjective, does not mean literal, everlasting punishment, punishment without end.

    This passage which Jesus is quoting definitely refers to an eternal place of torment in the O.T., as verified by the commentary.

    • John Gill, Commentary on the Whole Bible., Matt 9:45-48
      This will be always the case; conscience will be ever distressing, racking, and torturing them; it will never cease, nor cease doing this office, and so the Chaldee paraphrase of #Isa 66:24 renders this phrase, bshmthwn la imwtwn, "their souls shall not die"; but shall ever continue in the dreadful torments and unspeakable horrors of a corroding conscience; and by "the fire" may be meant the fire of divine wrath let into their souls, which will never be extinguished; and so Jarchi interprets the phrase in #Isa 66:24, "their fire", bgihnm, "in hell". It is a tradition of the Jews {l}, that the light, fire, which God created on the second day, "there is no quenching it for ever"; as it is said, "for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched", #Isa 66:24, the passage which is here referred to; the reason they give is, because it is the fire of hell; the sense of which is sometimes given by the Jewish doctors thus {m}; "their worm shall not die" from the body, "and the fire shall not be quenched" from the soul.
      {l} T. Bab. Pesachim. fol. 54. 1. & Gloss. in ib.
      {m} Zohar in Exod. fol. 62. 3.

      Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aiwnion) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (aiwnion)

      Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    The parallel scripture to Dan 12:2 in the N.T. is John 5:29.

    • Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Will God let the wicked, those who reject His laws and commandments, who spit in His face, who curse Him, who vilify and stone His prophets, sleep for a time in the “grave” and then forgive them and resurrect them to eternal life with His saints?

    Will inhuman monsters like Hitler and Stalin “sleep” for a while in the grave then be granted eternal life? How about murderers, rapists? Will the sadistic, aberrant, creatures which sexually abuse, torture, and murder innocent little children, spend an eternity in paradise with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Peter and Paul after only “sleeping” for a time in the “grave”?

    • Ps 11: 5
    • The LORD [יהוה] trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
      6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.
    I note that you also have resorted to “ad hominem” attack to support your argument. Assuming everything the Pharisees said automatically wrong, simply because they are Pharisees. You twist a statement about certain specific sayings and practices of the Pharisees and try to turn it into a universal rule, although Jesus Himself said exactly the opposite.

    • Matt 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
      3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

      Gill’s Commentary, Matt 22:2-3
      Jews are so conscious, that they suggest the same doctrine {n}.

      “The daughter of Ahar (a wicked man) came before Rabbi; she said to him, Rabbi, supply me with the necessaries of life: he replied to her, daughter, who art thou? she answered him, the daughter of Ahar: he said to her, is there any of his seed in the world? for lo! it is written, #Job 18:19. "He shall neither have son, nor nephew, among his people, nor any remaining, in his dwellings": she replied to him,”zakr ltwrtw wal tzkwr ma’shiw”, "remember his law, or doctrine, but do not remember his works."—Says R. Jochanan, what is that which is written, #Mal 2:7. "For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth; for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts." If the doctor is like to an angel, or messenger of the Lord of hosts, they should seek the law at his mouth; and if not, they should not seek the law at his mouth. Says Resh Lekish, R. Meir found and explained that Scripture, #Pr 22:17. "Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart to my knowledge": to their knowledge it is not said, but to my knowledge. R. Chanina says, hence, #Ps 45:10. "Hearken, O daughter! and consider, incline thine ear, forget thine own people, and thy father’s house": on which the gloss is, forget their works, and do not learn them: he that knows how to take care not to learn their works, may learn the law from their mouths.”

      —And a little after,

      “the disciples of the wise men are like to a nut; as a nut, though it is defiled with mire and filth, yet that which is within it is not to be rejected; so a scholar, or a disciple of a wise man, though he act wickedly, his law, or doctrine, is not to be despised.”

    Here is the passage which you have tried to wrest to fit your assumptions and presuppositions. Note it deals with certain specific incidents, Jesus is talking about “washing of pots and cups” and other similar laws relating to “kaasher” and He further addresses how the Pharisees circumvent the law requiring sons to care for their parents. Neither this passage nor any other passage in the gospels can be misconstrued to mean Jesus rejects all the teachings of the Pharisees. And this is not presupposition or assumption but is clearly supported by Matt 23:2-3, above.
    • Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
      8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
      9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
      10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
      11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
      12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
      13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
     
  3. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    Please note that in the phrase resurrection of damnation, the word "damnation" is translated from krisis.

    From Strong's:
    1) a separating, sundering, separation
    a) a trial, contest
    2) selection
    3) judgment
    a) opinion or decision given concerning anything
    1) esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
    b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
    4) the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
    5) right, justice

    The good will be resurrected to eternal life, and the wicked will be resurrected to judgement. It doesn't say anything about "and then forgive them and resurrect them to eternal life with His saints?". It doesn't say anything about "Will the sadistic, aberrant, creatures which sexually abuse, torture, and murder innocent little children, spend an eternity in paradise with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Peter and Paul after only “sleeping” for a time in the “grave”?"

    It says that they will be resurrected to judgement.
     
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Oh nonsense, Old Shepherd!

    Your shakey position, Old Shepherd, continues to lanquish! Not one Scripture from the Old Covenant can you present that speaks anything of unending torment from the Lord of Glory towards His enemies....NOT ONE WORD! As for this silly statement that "only the wicked" are sent to shoel, consider the fact that Jonah cried out of the fish's belly and said...

    "I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord; and He heard me; out of the belly of hell/shoel cried I, and thou heardest my cry." Evidently living in a fish's belly is hell, eh!

    And then we have the prophet David singing of making his bed in hell/shoel , and where is the Lord God of Israel, while the wicked man, "after the Lord's heart is making his bed?

    "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell/shoel, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."

    Or, perhaps King David was mistaken again....

    "When the waves of death compassed me....the sorrows of hell/shoel compassed me about; the snares of death came upon me; In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried to my God: and He did hear me from out of His sanctuary, and my cry did enter into His ears." 2 Sam. 22

    And the "big silly" again declares....

    "For great is thy mercy towards me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell/shoel." Psl. 139:8

    And again, articulating the anointed Christ of God, he sings....

    "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell/shoel; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Please also see Acts 2: 27 and context!

    And perhaps OldShepherd you can explain how by the beating of the rod,  a child's soul can be delivered from hell/shoel?

    What does the Jewish Encyclopedia declare on our Lord's ways in this matter. Perhaps we should consult the Pharisees again for direction! Oh my dear Old, Old Shepherd, this is becoming a wonderful learning experience for me! I stand amazed and in wonder!

    "My deep definition of sovereignty--He is God and we are not!" 

     
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Drmmjr.... The Koine Greek definition of damnation is duly noted!

    "Fear forces, love leads, faith follows." Keith Moore
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    OldShepherd....you are such a delight! You posted....

    Teddy Ruxpin

    "Something is not quite right!"

    Dr. Charles Brown (Charlie Brown)

    "Good grief!"

    FineLinen

    "Nonsense!"

    "I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord; and He heard me; out of the belly of hell/shoel cried I, and thou heardest my cry."

    "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell/shoel, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."

    "When the waves of death compassed me....the sorrows of hell/shoel compassed me about; the snares of death came upon me; In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried to my God: and He did hear me from out of His sanctuary, and my cry did enter into His ears." 2 Sam. 22

    "For great is thy mercy towards me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell/shoel." Psl. 139:8

    "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell/shoel; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Please also see Acts 2: 27 and context!

    "Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the Living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But the exposition may be carried on in such a way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience they are no better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, and they may delight in His presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."  A.W.Tozer (The Pursuit Of God) 
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    There are 31 Scriptures in the Old Covenant all translated Hell from shoel. This is your mission, Old Shepherd, should you feel up to accepting the mission....Show us how the 31 shoel Scriptures support the definition of your "so called scholars" in their presentation.....

    "My deep definition of sovereignty--He is God and we are not!" 

    1. "Wicked sent there for punishment."

    Scriptural shoel support_________________________________?

    2. "Place of exile"

    Scriptural shoel support__________________________________?

    3. "Extreme degradation of sin"

    Scriptural shoel support_________________________________?

    4. "Wicked sent there for punishment"

    Scriptural shoel support_________________________________?

    5. "Place of no return."

    Scriptural shoel support_________________________________?


     
     
  8. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I notice that you have, as usual, ignored most of my post, choosing to quote only one sentence, out of context, and then have the audacity to speak to me of context. This is the sure sign of someone who has no argument and cannot defend his position. I quoted "one verse" for you and you have ignored it. Your argument will require more than the one word "nonsense" and a few quotes from cartoon characters.

    • שאל, שאול n.f. (appar. m.) Sheol, underworld — 1. the underworld, mtkht sh tkhtit; under mts. and sea; and bars; personif. (||mth) as insatiable monster; as said (fig.) to have snares, khbli 'ש (opp. Lma’lh) (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return; all being alike; without work or knowledge or wisdom. 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. in 'ש: a. wicked; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away; 'ש consumes them as drought water; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple); deliverance from it a blessing. b. righteous shall not be abandoned. 3. later distinction of places in 'ש : a. depths of 'ש for sensualist. 4. 'ש fig. of extreme degradation in sin; as place of exile for Israel.

      The Abridged Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament From A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and Charles Briggs, based on the lexicon of William Gesenius
     
  9. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I have presented many pages in support of my position. Now it is time for you to either address and respond to my posts or admit that you lack the knowledge and ability to do so. My so-called scholars consisted of the major Biblcal languages resources TWOT, TDNT, BAGD, BDB, ISBE, which you apparently have never heard of and standard Biblical reference resources i.e. encyclopedias. None of which you have presented a single word to refute. Shaky foundation? You have no foundation whatsoever but quotes from a handful of your pet scholars. I have asked repeatedly for proof, evidence, documentation, you evidently have no idea what I am talking about.

    You fill out your own little quiz.
     
  10. HesMyAll

    HesMyAll Senior Contributor

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    It is sad but true that many times people would rather go by what "scholars" say than by actual truth. Sadly also alot of people come to the forums in a quest for a good argument than to seek for truth.  I for one will stick to the truth of God's word.  And no matter how many "scholars" someone quotes, I will still believe that when God's word says everlasting that He really means everlasting.

    God bless you Old Shephard, you have gone above and beyond to prove the truth of God's word.
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Old Shepherd, I am following your shakey position with great interest, and hanging on your every word. I have been examining again today the word translated hell in the Old Covenant from [email protected]'owl. And, our dear Old Shepherd, the Scriptures the King James Translators refused to translate exactly the same. The following are the results of [email protected]'owl translated grave.

    "Something is not quite right! Dr. Teddy Ruxpin PhD. (The Talking Bear)

    You cannot show one Scripture in the Old Covenant that declares that our Father torments His enemies for the endless ages! Not one!

    The Hebrew Word [email protected]'owl NOT Translated Hell In The KJV

    The following passages of the Ancient Words the translators have not seen fit to translate into hell.

    Gen. 37:15

    "And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (sheol) unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him."

    Gen. 42:38

    "And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. (sheol)

    Gen. 44:29

    "And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. (sheol)

    Gen. 44:31

    "It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave." (sheol)

    1 Samuel 2:6

    "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave (sheol), and bringeth up again."

    1 Kings 2:6

    "Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave (sheol) in peace."

    1 Kings 2:9

    "Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave (sheol) with blood."

    Job 7:9

    "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave (sheol) shall come up no more."

    Job 14:13

    "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave(sheol), that thou wouldest deep in in secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!"

    Job 17:13

    "If I wait, the grave (sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness."

    Job 21:13

    "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave." (sheol)

    Job 24:19

    "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave (sheol) those which have sinned."

    Psl. 6:5

    "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave (sheol) who shall give thee thanks?

    Eccl. 9:19

    "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (shoel, whither thou goest."

    Psl. 30:3

    "Oh Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave (sheol): thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit."

    Psl. 31:17

    "Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. (sheol)

    Psl. 49:14

    "Like sheep they are laid in the grave (sheol); death shall feed them; and the upright whall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave (sheol) from their dwelling."

    Psl. 49:15

    "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol): for he shall receive me."

    Psl. 88:3

    "For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth unto the grave. (sheol)

    Psl. 89:48

    "What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave (sheol)? Selah

    Pls. 141:7

    "Our bones are scattered at the grave's (sheol) mouth, as one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth."

    Proverbs 1:12

    "Let us swallow them up alive as the grave (sheol); and whole, as those that go down into the pit."

    Proverbs 30:16

    "The grave (sheol); and the barren womb; the earth that is filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough."

    Song Of Solomon 8:6

    "Set me as a seal upon thy heart; as a seal upon thy arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave (sheol): the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame."

    Isa. 14:11

    "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave (sheol), and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."

    Isa. 38:10

    "I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave (sheol): for I am deprived of the residue of my years."

    Isa. 38:18

    "For the grave (sheol) cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth."

    Ezekiel 31:15

    "Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to the grave (sheol) I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed....."

    Hosea 13:14

    "I will ransom them from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave (sheol), I will be thy destruction; repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."

    Note

    These are the Scriptures that the King James translators did not translate into hell! Why was sheol not translated consistently every time? Next, we will consider every Scripture in the Old Covenant relating to......

    Sheol ([email protected])= Hell

    Holy, holy, holy are You Lord,

    Holy, holy, holy, are You Lord.

    The elders and angels bow,

    The redeemed worship you now.

    Holy holy holy are You Lord.


     
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "Good Grief" Dr. Chas. Brown (Charlie Brown) PhD. Theology

    Dear Old Shepherd posted....

    We will now pursue the 31 Scriptures the KJV translators have seen fit to translate sheol into hell.

    "Something is not quite right!"   Dr. Teddy Ruxpin Phd. (The Talking Bear)

    [email protected]'owl= Hell

    Deut. 32:22

    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn int0 the lowest hell (sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

    2 Samuel 22:6

    "The sorrows of hell (sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me."

    Job 11:8

    "It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell (sheol); what canst thou know?"

    Job 26:6

    "Hell (sheol) is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering."

    Psl. 9:17

    "The wicked shall be turned into hell (sheol), and all the nations that forget God."

    Psl. 16:10

    "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell/sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

    (Compare with Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31 translated hades=hell)

    Psl. 18:5

    "The sorrows of hell (sheol) compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me."

    Psl. 55:15

    "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell (sheol): for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them."

    Psl. 86:13

    "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou has delivered my soul from the lowest hell."

    Psl. 116:3

    "The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell (sheol) gat hold of me: I found trouble and sorrow."

    Psl. 139:8

    "If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in hell (sheol), behold, thou art there."

    Prov. 5:5

    "Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell (sheol)."

    Prov. 7:27

    "Her house is the way to hell (sheol), going down to the chambers of death."

    Prov. 9:18

    "But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell (sheol).

    Prov. 15:11

    "Hell (sheol) and destruction are before the Lord: how much more then, the hearts of men?

    Prov. 15:24

    "The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell (sheol) beneath."

    Prov. 23:14

    "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (sheol).

    Prov. 27:20

    "Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied." 

    Isaiah 5:14

    "Therefore hell (sheol) hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

    Isa. 14:9

    "Hell (sheol) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up all her thrones all the kings of the earth."

    Isa. 14:15

    "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (sheol), to the sides of the pit."

    Isa. 28:15

    "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell (sheol) are we in agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through it, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves."

    Isa. 28:18

    "And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell (sheol) shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

    Isa. 57:9

    "And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself unto hell (sheol).

    Ezekiel 31:16

    "I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell (shoel) with him that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and the best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth."

    Ezekiel 31:17

    "They also went down into hell (sheol) with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen."

    Eze. 32:21

    "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell (sheol) with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword."

    Eze. 32:27

    "And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell (sheol) with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living."

    Amos 9:2

    "Though they dig into hell (sheol), thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down."

    Habakkuk 2:5

    "Yea also, because he transgresseth wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell (sheol), and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth all nations, and heapeth unto him all people."

    Jonah 2:2

    "And said, I cried by reason of my affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (sheol) cried I, and thou heardest my voice." 

    The Would Be Scholars Of The Old Shepherd have declared....

    1. Sheol is a place of no return.

    2. Sheol is where the "wicked" are sent for punishment"

    3. The righteous are sent to sheol but not abandoned to it.

    4. Sheol is a place of exile.

    5. Sheol is an extreme degradation in sin.

    Questions

    1. Does the Son of God hold the keys of death and hell?

    2. Does the Son of God know how to turn the keys?

    3. Why does the Son of God hold the keys to death and hell?

    4. Did the Son of God suffer in hell?

    5. Describe the sorrows of hell encompassing David. What are the sorrows of hell?

    6. If shoel/hades is a place of no return, describe the two resurrections. What is the  purpose of the resurrections of the dead from sheol/hades?

    7. Why are those that are turned into hell resurrected?

    8. Why have the King James translators translated some Scriptures hell, and other's the grave in the Old Covenant, from the same word?

    9. Is there any indication of our Father tormenting for the endless ages in one single reference of shoel?....both lists.

    10. Does Jesus Christ come to the broken wrecks of men, under the curse of one man's sin, to enhance what the Old Covenant declared regarding hell? Does the predestined Lord of the Universe come to make mankind's life more miserable than it was under the Old Covenant?  

    11. Why does our Lord allow another one million souls to be born today, only to send the vast, vast majority to eternal torment? Why does the tyranny of change and decay continue?

    12. What brought you to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength?

    13. Do you love the Lord your God with all your heart because of what He is, or what He does?

    14. What is/was your earthly father like? Why did/does your earthly father punish you? What was your father's desire in punishment? Does your earthly father remotely resemble the Father of our spirits?

    15. Does your heavenly Father forgive His enemies? Does our Father require something of us, He does not dwell in? 

    "There is a communion with God that asks for nothing...yet asks for everything...He who seeks the Father more than anything He can give, is likely to have what he asks, for he is not likely to ask amiss." George MacDonald  

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

     
     
  13. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    Great stuff, FL. You've really done the business here. :clap:

    Time for a bit of Kierkegaard, I think...

    • People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
      Søren Kierkegaard.
    Yeah.

    That's how it is, man.

    :cool:
     
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Linen,

    While &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol, can mean simply the grave, there are many verses in which it is used for an eternal place of punishment, burning with fire and was so interpreted by pre-Christian and first century Judaism, and the early church. I have listed all the verses below but will only address those verses in which &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol” means something other than the grave.

    Posting a long laundry list of verses, without explaining how you think they support your argument or disprove mine, as you did, is meaningless. So you a list of verses, so what?

    • De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;sheol and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    There is fire in “the lowest &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;sheol kindled by the wrath of God. Do graves have fire? Do graves have different levels?

    • Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500; shall come up no more.
    If &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;sheol is merely the grave, and in the day of judgment the righteous and the unrighteous are all resurrected, then this verse describes a further &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;sheol from which there is no resurrection.

    • Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![/b]
    Job knew of the resurrection (Job 19:25 ff.) and prayed that God would remember him, but as noted above there is a &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol from which there is no resurrection!

    • Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500; those which have sinned.

      Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;, and all the nations that forget God.

    While &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol can mean the grave, there is also a &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol only for the wicked and unrighteous! You ignoring this clear distinction says nothing about my position but speaks volumes about yours.

    • Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.[/b]

      Gill’s commentary
      Ver. 10. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, &c.] Meaning, not in the place of the d#mned, where Christ never went, nor was; for at his death his soul was committed to his Father, and was the same day in paradise: but rather, "sheol" here, as "hades" in the Near Testament, signifies the state of the dead, the separate state of souls after death, the invisible world of souls, where Christ’s soul was; though it was not left there, nor did it continue, but on the third day returned to its body again;
    As I said before, something cannot be left in a place it never was! E.g. I did not leave my wallet in Moscow, I have never been to Moscow.

    • Ps 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
    This obviously speaks of something other than the grave, because David was not immortal, he died, and was buried, therefore God did not bring his soul out of the grave and he did go down to pit.

    • Ps 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;
    Again this speaks of a &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol”, only for the wicked.

    • Ps 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol from their dwelling.
      15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;: for he shall receive me. Selah.

      The Targum, [The Aramaic translation of the O.T., during the Babylonian captivity]

      “David said by the spirit of prophecy, but God will redeem my soul from the judgment of hell;”

      Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;.
    David was not given immortality, he was not rescued from death and the grave, therefore this &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol refers to something else, i.e. “hell”. Does the grave have different levels?

    • Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
    &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol” often means the grave. But “sheol” also refers to a place for sinners only. How can beating someone with a rod keep them from dying and being buried in the grave?

    • So 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: (&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol) the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
    Where does the grave have coals of fire and vehement flames?

    • Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee [king of Babylon, vs. 4], to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
      10 All they shall speak and say unto thee
    • , Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    If &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;sheol” means only the grave, without conscience existence, how do the multitudes in “sheol” move and rise up to greet the king of Babylon when he arrives?

    • Isa 38:18 For the grave &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500; cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
    According to your Unitarian teaching the unrighteous in the grave can repent and receive eternal life. However, the O.T. teaches that they who go down to “&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol” cannot even hope for the truth of God. There is a resurrection of the just and the unjust, so this speaks of something other than the grave, i.e. “hell”.

    • Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol” with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
    If &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol” is merely the grave how do the “strong [plural] among the mighty [plural] speak out of its midst”? The temporal dead do not speak and single graves do not have a “midst”

    • Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell “&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol” cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

    ”Oh this verse must certainly prove that “sheol” is not hell.” During the American civil war Gen. Sherman said, “War is hell!” Did all the dictionaries and grammarians immediately change their definition of hell or did the world understand that Sherman was using the most hideous word he could to describe the inhuman carnage he saw?

    Now, lets review Jonah. He was not a prophet and was not speaking “thus saith the lord”. In fact, he was rebelling against God, and running from God’s purpose. So when God chastised Jonah and he cried out in his distress, using the most descriptive Hebrew word he could think of, “&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol”, for his situation, should modern day scholars disregard all the other evidence, as Linen advocates, and change the definition of the word “sheol”, based on this single incident?

    The other verses which use &#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;/sheol

    • Ge 37:35, Ge 42:38, Ge 44:29, Ge 44:31, Nu 16:30, Nu 16:33, 1Sa 2:6, 2Sa 22:6, 1Ki 2:6, 1Ki 2:9, 1Sa 2:6, 2Sa 22:6, 1Ki 2:6, 1Ki 2:9, Job 11:8, Job 17:13, Job 17:16, Job 21:13, Job 26:6, Ps 6:5, Ps 18:5, Ps 55:15, Ps 88:3, Ps 89:48, Ps 116:3, Ps 139:8, Ps 141:7, Pr 1:12, Pr 5:5, Pr 7:27, Pr 9:18, Pr 15:11, Pr 15:24, Pr 27:20, Pr 30:16, Ec 9:10, Isa 5:14, Isa 14:9, Isa 14:11, Isa 14:15, Isa 28:15, Isa 28:18, Isa 38:10, Isa 57:9, Eze 31:15, Eze 31:16, Eze 31:17, Eze 32:27, Ho 13:14, Am 9:2, Hab 2:5
    Here is the one verse, which I posted and wrote a lengthy exposition of, that you have repeatedly ignored, claiming, at least three times, that I did not post one word from the O.T. in which God punishes the wicked for an eternity. And I also posted several other verses, which you have ignored as well.

    • Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me (&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;): for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
    As I said before, Jesus quoted Isa 66:24, in the N.T., repeated its warning four times, and never once stated or implied that it did not mean those who sin against God their fire, not God’s fire, their fire will not be quenched! And this is supported by all the historical, documentary, evidence; pre-Christian Judaism, first century Judaism, and the entire early church. OTOH, you have been reduced to asinine, inane quotes from cartoon characters.

    But I can safely say you have not presented one single word that refutes anything I have posted. I have repeatedly asked for evidence, proof, documentation, evidently you do not understand what that is.
     
  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +3,495
    Non-Denom
    Greetings again OldShepherd...

    "While shoel can mean simply the grave, there are MANY verses in which it is used for an eternal place of punishment."

    FineLinen

    You have the list of all scriptures of the Old Covenant with sheol before you. &nbsp;We stand anxiously awaiting for your presentation of the "many" scriptures that are used for a place of "eternal punishment" in shoel.

    Questions

    1. Does the Son of God hold the keys&nbsp;of death and hell?

    2. Does the Son of God know how to turn the keys?

    3. Why does the Son of God hold the keys to death and hell?

    4. Did the Son of God suffer in hell?

    5. Describe the sorrows of hell encompassing David. What are the sorrows of hell?

    6.&nbsp;If shoel/hades is a place of no return, describe the two resurrections. What is the&nbsp;&nbsp;purpose of the resurrections of the dead from sheol/hades?

    7. Why are those that are turned into hell/sheol resurrected?

    8. Why have the King James translators translated some Scriptures hell, and other's the grave in the Old Covenant, from the same word?

    9. Is there any indication of our Father tormenting for the endless ages in one single reference&nbsp;of shoel?....both lists.

    10.&nbsp;Does Jesus Christ come to the broken wrecks of men, under the&nbsp;curse of one man's sin, to enhance what the Old&nbsp;Covenant declared regarding hell? Does the predestined Lord of the Universe come to make&nbsp;mankind's life more miserable than it was under the&nbsp;Old&nbsp;Covenant?&nbsp;&nbsp;

    11. Why does our Lord allow another one million souls to be born today, only to send the&nbsp;vast, vast majority to eternal torment?&nbsp;Why does the tyranny of change and decay continue?

    12. What brought you to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and&nbsp;all your strength?

    13.&nbsp;Do you love the Lord your God with all your heart because of what He is, or what He does?

    14. What is/was your earthly father like? Why did/does your earthly father&nbsp;punish you? What was your father's desire in punishment? Does your earthly father remotely resemble the Father of our spirits?

    15. Does your heavenly Father forgive His enemies?&nbsp;Does our Father&nbsp;require something of us,&nbsp;that is not part of His being and nature?&nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +3,495
    Non-Denom
    Greetings again Old Shepherd...With all due respect for Brother Gill (I love your "real scholars!") :cry: , Jesus Christ indeed went to Hades/hell. You stated earlier, (yes I am reading your shakey position completely) that Christ never entered the prison of hades.

    David prophesied in Psl. 9:17 what we are reading in the New Compact.

    "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hades/ 'forsaken in the grave', neither His flesh did see corruption." It should also be noted that His ministry in the prison-house, to spirits of disobedience, led them to zao! He led captivity captive!

    FineLinen

    And let's read the context of Job 7:9 shall we?...You will note the words are applied to Job, and extending to all that go into their graves....

    "When I lie down, I say, when shall I arise, and the night be gone?
    And I am full of tossings to and fro unto the dawning of the day.

    My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust;

    My skin is broken, and become loathsome.

    My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope.

    O remember that my life is wind; mine eye shall no more see good.

    The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more; thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.

    As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the sheol/grave shall come up no more.

    He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more." &nbsp;

    Is this the best you can do OldShepherd? Job 7:9 indicates a "further sheol." This gets better all the time! As Dr. Charles Brown would exclaim...."Good grief!" You have been spending far too much time with the Jews, and those fine men our Saviour instructed us to follow, the Pharisees. :cry: I find the&nbsp;Jews and Pharisees less than the level of Dr.&nbsp;Chas Brown Phd.&nbsp;in authority,&nbsp;but equally hilarious! &nbsp;By the way, are you aware of the fact that the Pharisees could prove from Scripture that Jesus Christ was not the Messiah?

    The Lord&nbsp;&nbsp;"did NOT bring his (David's) soul out of hell/sheol but "great is Thy mercy to me; and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." If David was not given immortality, please explain to&nbsp;us what being rescued from&nbsp;the power of sheol/grave&nbsp;involves. And what does the phrase "redeem my soul" mean? :help:

    &nbsp;Brother, have you ever considered another line of employment? I am only funnin ya! :D :D You are a source of great blessing....would you like the rest of my blessing points?
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +3,495
    Non-Denom
    Evangelion .....
    &#948;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#769;&#962;

    My friend welcome to the zoo! I find it fascinating watching the "real scholars" interpret our Father's word! Could you take over for a while and talk to our OldShepherd? I think I am loosing my salvation! :rolleyes:

    Holy holy holy are You Lord

    Holy holy holy are You Lord

    The elders and the angels bow

    The redeemed worship You now

    Holy holy holy are You Lord. :bow: :bow:

    "The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and centre of their hearts."&nbsp; A.W. Tozer (The Pursuit Of God)
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +3,495
    Non-Denom
    Dear OldShepherd....You stated in reference to Isa. 66:4 that our Lord repeated the warning "four times"....I can find three in Mark 9:44,46,48. Now, if Isa. 66 is your proof for our Lord tormenting His enemies for the endless ages, I assume their carcases/corpses are "eternal" as well as their worm. Does "their" fire then indicate an asbestos type of super being?

    Let's consider the unquenchable fire for a moment...

    "For thou, oh God, hast proved us; thou hast tried us as silver is tried; we went through fire and through water, but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place."--Ps. 116:10-12.

    Silver is tried that its impurities may be purged away. The hotter the furnace, the more certain is the precious ore to be purified.

    "Who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."--Mal. 3: 2,3.

    God's consuming fire refines, purifies, and purges aways the dross of sin.

    "Every man's work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."--I Cor. 3:13-15.

    The exacting love of God, demanding purity, can do no less than destroy all that is opposed to the purity and happiness of its object.

    Thus "everlasting fire," the "furnace of fire," "consuming fire," "unquenchable fire," and all the forms in which fire figures in the Bible as an emblem of God's dealings with men, denote the severe but kindly and disciplinary character of God's judgments. There is always a beneficent purpose in all God's dealings with men. Divine love is seeking and securing by severe processes, sometimes as though by fire, the welfare of those towards whom the flame burns.

    "The holy flame forever burneth,

    From heaven it came, to heaven returneth."


    Nothing precious will perish or permanently suffer from the consuming fire of God. Sin, error, evil, will perish; but the soul will come forth from the conflagration purified as silver is purified, perfectly reflecting its Maker's image as it never can until the impurities of time are consumed, and it returns to that purity it had when it came from the hand of that being in whose image every human soul is created.

    UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.

    "He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."--Matt. 3:12 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."--Mark 9:43,44.

    Many suppose that the words "unquenchable fire" mean a fire of endless duration, whereas, it is a fire that cannot be quenched until its purpose is accomplished.

    Dr. Paige: "When a house is destroyed by fire, the fire, strictly speaking, is unquenchable, because no effort that is made could extinguish it; but no one would allege that it would never expire of itself."

    Dr. Hammond, a judicious commentator, says: "They put fire to the chaff at the windward side, that creeps on and never gives over, till it hath consumed all the chaff, and so is a kind of asbeston pur, here, a fire never quenchable, till it have done its work."--Com. on Matt. 3:12.

    The Old Testament shows the application of the figure of fire burning chaff: Job says, the wicked are "as chaff that the storm carrieth away," 35:5, 21:18. See also Psalms. Isaiah 5:24. 17:13. 29:5. 33:14. 91:15.

    The Jewish nation, which was about to be destroyed, was represented by chaff, reserved for destruction, as it was in Matt. iii:10, by the tree which was to be hewn down and cast into the fire. The fire by which the Jews were destroyed was the fire of divine judgment: and as it did its work effectually, so it was unquenchable It is for this reason that the punishment and destruction of the Jews are described in the Old Testament as being effected by unquenchable fire.

    Isaiah 65:23-24. "And it shall come to pass from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

    The unquenchable fire here spoken of is in this world, as is evident from the phrase "new moon" and "Sabbath." Again, Jer. 17:27. "But if you will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."

    Fire kindled in the gates of Jerusalem, which devoured the palaces of Jerusalem, is said to be unquenchable. Ezek. 20:45

    "Moreover, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field; and say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord:--Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree, the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therin. And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it; it shall not be quenched."

    Here the forests are devoured in an unquenchable fire. The meaning is, not that the fire was endless, but that it was not quenched,--it continued to burn--until all the material was destroyed. So the judgments of God on the Jews were effectually done--the nation was completely devastated and destroyed. They were like chaff of the Summer threshing floor in the consuming fire of God's judgment.

    Unquenchable Fire

    The phrase unquenchable fire, is found in six places in the New Testament. Matt. 3:12. Luke 3:17. Mark 9:43,44,45 and 46. In all of these passages the phrase should be quenchless fire.

    The Greek word asbestos, unquenchable, inextinguishable, is the original term in all the passages, verses 44 and 46 in Mark having the verb form, sbennutai.

    What does it mean? That the fire was never to expire, literally, or that nothing could extinguish it till it accomplished its purpose? The usage of the word will determine. How did Greek authors at the time of Christ employ it?

    Josephus says, [Jewish War, B. ii, ch. xvii:6.] speaking of a fire that used to burn in the temple--though at the time he wrote [A.D.80] it had gone out, and the temple was destroyed--"Every one was accustomed to bring wood for the altar, that fuel might never be needed for the fire, for it continued always unquenchable."

    Strabo, [A.D. 70} described the "unquenchable lamp" that used to burn in the Parthenon, though it has long since ceased to burn. [Lib. ix: p. 606.]

    Plutarch, (A.D. 110) in Numa, [p. 262] speaks of places in Delphi and Athens, "where there is a fire unquenchable," (asbeston) though in the same breath he describes it as having ceased to burn.

    Eusebius, [A.D]325, Eccl. Hist. Lib. vi, chap. 41] in his account of the martyrdom of Cronon and Julian, at Alexandria, says they were "consumed in unquenchable fire, asbesto puri," though it burned only long enough to destroy their bodies.

    In the Scriptures an unquenchable fire is one that cannot be extinguished until it has fulfilled its purpose.

    Lev. 6: 12-13, "And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings. The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."

    Now this fire was long ago extinguished, and yet it was "never to go out."
    So we read in Isa. 34:9-10, "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."

    This language is all figurative; the unquenchable fire has long since expired.
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +3,495
    Non-Denom
    And so, OldShepherd, these passages and extracts suffice to exhibit the Biblical and common usage of this term. In all cases it denotes fire of temporal duration. Our Savior used the words in the same sense in which they had always been employed.

    God's judgments are denoted by fire in frequent passages: "For there is a fire gone out of Heshbon, a flame from the city of Sihon; it hath consumed Ar of Moab, and the lords of the high places of Arnon." Num. 21:28. David represents the judgments of God upon the wicked in this life: "A fire goeth before him and burneth up his enemies round about." Psa. 97:3

    God is spoken of as a "consuming fire." because he brought judgments upon the disobedient and sinful. In the prophecy of Isaiah, the destruction of Babylon is spoken of under the same figure: "Behold they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them: they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame." Isaiah 47:14. "He is a God that judgeth in the earth." Paul uses nearly the same language that Moses employed when addressing the children of Israel, Deut. 4:24. "For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."

    Stuart says: "In the valley of Hinnom (gehenna,) perpetual fire was kept up, in order to consume the offal which was deposited there; and, as the same offal would breed worms, hence came the expression--where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched."

    Dr. Parkhurst adds" Our Lord seems to allude to the worms which continually preyed on the dead carcasses that were cast out into the valley of Hinnom, (gehenna), and to the perpetual fire, kept up to consume them."

    The idea of endless duration was not in the minds of the authors of these terms. They used the language to denote either literal fire that should burn until its object was accomplished, or as an emblem of divine judgments, thorough but limited.

    Canon Farrar, in "Eternal Hope," "Consequences of Sin," says: "The exression 'quenchless fire,'--for the phrase 'that never shall be quenched,' is a simple mistranslation--is taken from Isa. 66:24, and is purely a figure of speech, as it is there, or as it is in Homer's Iliad, 16:123."

    In his Appendix to the volume he observes: "it was in answer to the bitter taunt of Celsus, that the God of the Christians kindled a fire in which all but the Christians should be burned, that Origen first argued that the fire should possess a purifying quality (katharsion) for all those who had in themselves any materials for it to consume. All, even Peter and Paul, must pass through this fire (Isa. 43:2) and ordinary sinners must remain in it till purged. It is in fact, a baptism of fire, at the resurrection, for those who had not received effectually the baptism of the spirit (Peri Arkon i:6, Cels. 6:26; Hom. in Psalm 3:1; in Jer. 2:3; in Ezek. 1:13). It was not a material fire, but self-kindled, like an eternal fever. It was in fact remorse for remembered sin, a 'figurative representation of the moral process by which restoration shall be effected.'"

    FURNACE OF FIRE.

    The phrase "furnace of fire," occurs in these passages in the old Testament:

    Deut. 4:20: "But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace,even out of Egypt." I Kings 8:51: "For they be thy people, and thine inheritance which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron." Jer. xi:4: "Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace." "Saith the Lord, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem." "Behold I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Ezek. 22:18-21:

    "Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it, so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you."

    The Savior had this usage in his mind, and conveyed the same thought, namely, the approaching woes on His country and race in the only places where we find the same language in the New Testament.

    Matt.13:41,42: "The Son of Man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Verse 50: "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

    It is nowhere said that God has a furnace in eternity, in which to burn souls. His furnace was in Jerusalem, Isa.31:9. At the end of that age, (aion) Jesus said: "The Son of Man shall send forth his angels (messengers), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

    This was all fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed.

    ETERNAL FIRE

    "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7. 2Pet. 2:6.

    The cities referred to by Jude are a perpetual example. Their fire has long since expired, but their example still remains, it is one perpetually before the world. The fire is eternal, though it was long since extinguished.

    By the phrase eternal fire, according to Rosenmuller we may understand a destructive fire, such as laid waste and annihiliated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, or we may understand by it a fire perpetually smoking.

    Philo, the Jew, who wrote in the time of our Savior, says, de vita Mosis, Lib. II. p. 662 A, that even then there were memorials to be seen in Syria of the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah; ruins, ashes, brimstone, smoke and lurid flames which were still emitted, indicative of abiding fire. With this agrees the Book of Wisdom, 10:7, which says: "Of whose wickedness even in this day the waste land that smoketh is a testimony."

    Dr. Shaw (see Clarke's Com. on Genesis 19: 24), says that "the appearance of smoke and fire of which he speaks, and to which Philo and the author of Wisdom allude, is undoubtedly to be explained by the well known existence of bituminous matter in the bed of the lake Asphaltites, which now occupies the site of those cities. These considerations are sufficient to justify the language of Jude, without resorting to the idea that he had reference to the future world."

    Similar language is found in Matt. 18:8. "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."

    The distinquished author Charles Kingley writes (more scribblings)

    "Fire and worms, whether physical or spiritual, must in all logical fairness be supposed to do what fire and worms do, i.e. destroy decayed and dead matter, and set free its elements to enter into new organisms; that as they are beneficent and purifying agents in this life, they must be supposed such in the future life, and that the conception of fire as an engine of torture, is an unnatural us of that agent and not to be attributed to God without blasphemy, unless you suppose that the suffering, like all He inflicts is intended to teach man something which he cannot learn elsewhere."

    "Finally, you may call upon them to rejoice that there is a fire of God the Father whose name is Love, burning forever unquenchable to destroy out of every man's heart, and out of the hearts of all nations, and off the physical and moral world, all which offends and makes a lie. That into that fire the Lord will surely cast all which offends and makes a lie. That into that fire the Lord will surely cast all shams, lies, hypocrisies, tyrannies, pedantries, false doctrines, yea and the men who love them too well to give them up, that the smoke of their basanismos may ascend perpetually for a warning and a beacon to all nations, as the smoke of the torment of French aristocracies, and Bourbon dynasties, is ascending up to Heaven, and has been since 1793."


    It may be added that, if endless fire were taught, something more durable than "chaff" would be named as fuel!!

    OldShepherd I will say it again! You stand before the eyes of Him whose Nature and Essence defies what you declare.&nbsp;You stand without one word that declares our Lord is the Master Tortmenter of His creation. He punishes, He disciplines, He scourges, and His wrath is terrible, but His wrath is bathed in His nature, the Father of all fathers, whose wrath is for a short while, but His lovingkindness compassionates us back to Himself. We have been considering Job again today. Are you aware of what our Lord spoke regarding what is not true concerning&nbsp;Him? I am, and it makes me walk very softly! :bow: :bow:

    "My deep definition of sovereignty--He is God and we are not!"&nbsp;
     
  20. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +19
    Jehovahs Witness
    Here are some figurative Uses of&nbsp;"fire" that are found in scripture&nbsp;that may add to the discussion.

    Fire or expressions having the thought of burning, or flaming, are figuratively associated with love (Ca 8:6), passion (Ro 1:27; 1Co 7:9), anger and judgment (Zep 2:2; Mal 4:1), or strong emotion (Lu 24:32; 2Co 11:29). When Jeremiah wanted to refrain from speaking God's word, he found this impossible, for it proved to be like a burning fire shut up in his bones. (Jer 20:9) The Scriptures refer to&nbsp;God as a consuming fire because of his cleanness, purity, and insistence on exclusive devotion, as well as the fact that he annihilates those who set themselves in opposition to him. (De 4:24; 9:3) His ardor and rage burn like fire, and his "tongue" and word are like a fire. (Ps 79:5; 89:46; Isa 30:27; Jer 23:29) Moreover,&nbsp;God makes his angelic ministers a devouring fire, and by the fire of his zeal "the earth" will be devoured. Ps 104:1, 4; Zep 3:8; see also Da 7:9, 10.

    Testing, refining, purging. "The messenger of the covenant" is compared to a refiner's fire, a fire used in purifying gold and silver. Hence, God's fiery testing of "the sons of Levi" by the messenger of the covenant brings about their cleansing. (Mal 3:1-3. &nbsp;A test by fire also reveals the quality of a material, as pointed out by the apostle Paul when emphasizing the importance of building on Jesus Christ with fire-resistant materials. 1Co 3:10-15.

    Fire and salt were associated with the sacrifices offered at the temple. (Le 2:9, 13; Eze 43:24) Salt represented freedom from corruption and was a symbol of enduring loyalty, as found in the expression "covenant of salt." (2Ch 13:5) Of what, then, is the fire symbolic?

    The apostle Peter refers to trials or sufferings as a "fire" that proves the quality of the Christian's faith. (1Pe 1:6, 7) Later, he likens suffering for righteousness to a burning when he tells his fellow Christians: "Do not be puzzled at the burning among you, which is happening to you for a trial, . . . you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory." (1Pe 4:12, 13) That such suffering for righteousness has a beneficial effect is pointed out by the apostle Paul when he says: "Tribulation produces endurance." (Ro 5:3) A person who faithfully and successfully passes through a difficult "burning" trial is stronger and more solidly established as a result of his endurance. Ac 14:22; Ro 12:12.

    Destruction. In Bible times the most thorough means of destruction in use was fire. (Jos 6:24; De 13:16) Hence Jesus at times used the term "fire" in an illustrative way to denote the complete destruction of the wicked. (Mt 13:40-42, 49, 50; compare Isa 66:24; Mt 25:41.) On one occasion Jesus warned his disciples against letting their hand, foot, or eye stumble them so that they would be pitched into Gehenna. Then he went on to say: "Everyone must be salted with fire." He must have meant that "everyone" who did what he had just warned against would be salted with the "fire" of Gehenna, or eternal destruction. Mr 9:43-49.

    Peter wrote that "the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire." From the context and in the light of other scriptures, it is evident that this is not a literal fire but signifies everlasting destruction. As the Flood of Noah's day did not destroy the literal heavens and earth, but only the ungodly persons, so also the revelation of Jesus Christ with his powerful angels in a flaming fire will result in permanent destruction only for the ungodly and the wicked system of things of which they are a part. 2Pe 3:5-7, 10-13; 2Th 1:6-10; compare Isa 66:15, 16, 22, 24.

    Further examples of the use of fire to represent eternal destruction are found in Revelation and Ezekiel. There we are told that "the ten horns" and "the wild beast" will turn upon Babylon the Great and burn her with fire. (Re 17:16, 17) The attack of Gog and his hordes against God's people arouses Jehovah's anger, and fire and sulfur will rain down upon them. The remaining war implements of the attackers will be used to light fires for seven years. (Eze 38:19, 22; 39:6, 9, 10) Those nations who become rebellious when Satan is released at the end of the Thousand Year Reign of Christ will be devoured by fire, and the Devil and all those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, representing the second death. Re 20:7-10, 15; 21:8.
     
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