Does hell exist?

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen

These are amazing "facts".

The uses of the word "torment" in the New Covenant

1. It is used of one sick of the palsy (grieviously tormented.) Matt. 8:6

2. It is used of the disciples ship in Galilee, and is translated "tossed with waves." (Matt. 14:24

3. It is translated by the word "toiling" in Mark 6:48

4. It is translated by the word "vexed" in speaking of Lot (2 Pet. 2:8)

5. It is translated by a word that means birth- pangs". (Rev 12:2)

6. In other Scriptures it is translated as "torment" or "tormented."

The meaning of this word, and its usage, harmonizes with the idea of Divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change or not in the sufferer. Through the loving and hidden purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth-pang and the grace of God will not be absent.

The original idea of the word torment is the verb "to put to the test by rubbing on a touchstone." It means to put to the test, or "question by applying some test or torture to discover whether it is true or not." The original ideas was to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. It also signifies "to torture in order to extort a confession."

How is this response fallacious? It is just a blind cut and paste from some source or other and ignores the context of the passage and disregards the mood, case, and person of the word in question, both of which determine how to best translate it.

Definitions 1-5 can be summarily dismissed based on the context. I think we can safely say that the "wrath of the anger of God" eliminates testing silver or gold on a touchstone, dont you? That only leaves #6.

Now lets hear from a real Greek scholar, in fact one of the most renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He taught post graduate Greek for 47 years, wrote over 40 books on the N.T. including a 1200 page Greek grammar and the 6 volume Word Pictures, quoted here.

• 
  A.T. Robertson "Word Pictures in the N.T.
  {He also shall drink} (\kai autos pietai\). Future middle of \pinô Certainty for him as for Babylon and her paramours (#16:17). {Of the wine of the wrath of God} (\ek tou oinou tou thumou tou theou\). Note \ek\ (partitive) after \pietai In #16:19; 19:15 we have both \thumou\ and \orgês\ (wrath of the anger of God). The white heat of God’s anger, held back through the ages, will be turned loose. {Prepared unmixed} (\tou kekerasmenou akratou\). A bold and powerful oxymoron, "the mixed unmixed." \Akratos\ is an old adjective (alpha privative and \kerannumi\ to mix) used of wine unmixed with water (usually so mixed), here only in N.T. So it is strong wine mixed (perfect passive participle of \kerannumi\) with spices to make it still stronger (cf. #Ps 75:9). {In the cup of his anger} (\en tôi potêriôi tês orgês autou\). Both \thumos\ (vehement fury) and \orgê\ (settled indignation). {He shall be tormented} (\basanisthêsetai\). Future passive of \basanizô See #9:5; 11:10. {With fire and brimstone} (\en puri kai theiôi\). See #9:17 for fire and brimstone and also #19:20; 20:10; 21:8. The imagery is already in #Ge 19:24; Isa 30:33; Eze 38:22. {In the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb} (\enôpion aggelôn hagiôn kai enôpion tou arniou\). This holy environment adds to the punishment.

The meaning of this word, and its usage, harmonizes with the idea of Divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change or not in the sufferer. Through the loving and hidden purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth-pang and the grace of God will not be absent.

". . .any change or not in the sufferer." Wild eyed speculation not supported by any of the standard language sources. And how do you know the "hidden" purpose of God?

It also signifies "to torture in order to extort a confession."

False! No such meaning in the standard language resources, e.g. TDNT, BAGD.

 

[FineLinen]

Oh, but Old Shepherd, the quote is indeed appropriate. You stand with those who see our Father as a master tormenter. Not only does He torment the vast segments of His creation, He makes no route of change and transformation. And so punishment has no correction involved, but rather is an end in itself. If this is not your position please clarify! A person will indeed worship something.....we are made to worship. That which dominates our thinking, we become, and therefore what we are worshipping we are indeed becoming. I do appreciate the fact that the whole post is something you do care about and not "couldn't care less", please forgive me if I misplaced your intent. The quote from Emerson is "irrelevant"??...if you cannot grasp the implications, we will leave that aspect, for now. Do you find yourself comfortable with the dual hells of Spurgeon? Can you support it from Scripture, or shall we call him back to answer his foolishness?

quote:

Originally posted by FineLinen

Good morning OldShepherd...Thankyou for your post.

I am sorry you "couldn't care less." That is a dangerous attitude if you long to walk in the Father's heart. We are pleased, however, with your experience of being stationed in Germany with Elvis! Your knowledge of Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew should put you in good position for the following discussions. We are pleased with what you own, and yes, I want to talk "languages".

Here is an attempt to twist my words. To what was I responding, "I couldn't care less?" The entire post? No! Only to the final paragraph, an irrelevant quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson. My lack of interest in Emerson certainly holds no danger for, and has absolutely nothing to do with, my relationship with the father, as you deceptively imply.

And I'm just as pleased as punch that you are so pleased about the information I shared. I see you totally missed the relevance. I mentioned a chronological reference in there, which you either ignored or were unable to see.

FineLinen

Oh, but my dear brother, I have not missed the relevance at all. I must leave you for a little time...my grandchildren have my beloved wife tied to a stake, and have just placed the match to the burning material at her feet. May our Lord be gracious unto us as "He gives us the spirit of wisdom and revelation through an intimate/growing knowledge of Himself."

"The eyes of your heart/understanding being enlightened/flooded with light, that you may realize the hope given you by God's call..."

 

 

 

[FineLinen]

OldShepherd...perhaps you should submit a list of "real Greek Scholars" so we can eliminate those who are only would-be's. Basanismos is used ONLY in 5 references in the Book of Revelation, the meaning of the word is the following....

Basanismos=

To torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal.

Torment, torture.

The act of tormenting.

The state or condition of those tormented.

I will leave the remainder of your post for later. Please be patient with me, I am not as old as you, but alas, the ravages of time and space have eroded me.

How are your answers coming on Kolazo?

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement."

Kolazo=?

I hope to get into the wrath of God a little later. In preparation for that glorious event, do you have any idea what it means to be "fitted" for destruction? (Romans 9:22)

Fitted= Katartizo=?

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering, the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction."

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by FineLinen
Oh, but Old Shepherd, the quote is indeed appropriate. You stand with those who see our Father as a master tormenter.[/b]

Emerson was a 19th century poet/philosopher, NOT a theologian. His speculations on worship have no more relevance that those of some homeless person living in a cardboard box.

Not only does He torment the vast segments of His creation, He makes no route of change and transformation.

A false statement. God most certainly has made a route of change and transformation.

The quote from Emerson is "irrelevant"??...if you cannot grasp the implications, we will leave that aspect, for now. Do you find yourself comfortable with the dual hells of Spurgeon? Can you support it from Scripture, or shall we call him back to answer his foolishness?

Re: Emerson, see above. My faith and practice is not based on Spurgeon or any other famous, or not-so-famous preacher. Also I see his twin hells differently than you do. Seems to me you are desperate to find something to criticize in him. I clearly see him saying twin hells, the physical and the mental/emotional. And with that I agree, emotional pain can be just as excruciating as physical.

A "real scholar" is one who is widely recognized as having expertise by his peers in the field and/or whose works are used in or by major colleges and universities. Selling "books" or tapes only through a website does not make one a scholar.

 

[FineLinen]

OldShepherd...The theologians fall far short of our Father's plan, as we all do. Although Spurgeon declared many wonderful things, he was in the dark concerning the summary in the Son of our Father's love. His brethren fall short equally! His exact quote can be found in the following expressions of nonsense!

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31365-6.html

Do these men adequately express your knowledge of our Father's cherished purpose?

And now for a quick question again....

Do you know what the Koine Greek is for Orge?

Can you tell us the Koine Greek root for Orge? 

Heck, you are old, so why search....

Orge is rooted in oregomai

Oregomai=

To stretch one's self out in order to touch or grasp something.

To reach after or desire something.  

 

[FineLinen]

Greetings again OldShepherd...

Sheol is used in all 31 verses of the Hebrew text, all translated hell.

Hades is used 10 times total; translated Hell.

4 X in the Revelation

2 X in Matthew

2 X in Luke

2 X in Acts (Christ in Hell)

Gehenna is translated 12 times as hell.

7 X in Matthew.

3 X in Mark.

1 X in Luke.

1 X in James. (in reference to the tongue)

Tartarus is translated hell once.

1 X in 2 Peter.

You posted that shoel is a Hebrew term simply describing "the grave" or "death" & does not refer to hell specifically. Jesus Christ then came to make man's condition worse, rather than the good news to all mankind announced by the angels of the Glory?

 

Questions 

1. Does the coming of the Christ as Soter, consummate in good news to all mankind?

2. How does the grave, shoel, now become a place of torment, (everlasting torment)?

3. The doctrine of "everlasting torment", or hell, is the foundation of many peoples vision. Why does the Apostle Paul mention hell zero times? (Paul speaks of aeonial olethros) but you will not address that as yet. And the disciple who leaned on the Master's bosom, the Apostle John,....how many times is hell mentioned in his Gospel..or epistles.?

4. If hades is a place of torment, and not the same as Shoel, can you describe how hell is cast into the Lake of Fire with death?

5. Demonstrate from Scripture that hades is a place of torment.

6. If hades is a place of torment, describe what transpired in Acts when our Lord went into hades. Was He tormented?

7. You will notice that St. Peter used the word tartarus once (the only time the word is used in Canon).....translated hell in the K.J. V. Can you describe what happened when our Lord entered and preached to "spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark." What was the net result of this preaching engagement?

8. What is the Koine Greek meaning of Zao?

9. Do you accept the tongue as being a demonstration of Gehenna?

And now Old Shepherd, I am shocked that you have not become acquainted with brother George MacDonald. Many lives have been enhanced by his walk with the Holy One. Have you ever heard of Oswald Chambers? And, are you aware of C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity)....I will post what he has declared regarding this remarkable man of God later. Did you know that C.S. Lewis, one of the brightest minds of the 20th Century, and an athiest, came to his knees and a relationship with the Holy One, beginning with the writings of brother George MacDonald.

This is dangerous, my friend, you have never heard of so many, and yet you boldly declare their words....what was the word?.....scribblings was it? Oh, my dear brother, this is going to be a long road ahead of us!

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down and the ANCIENT OF DAYS took His throne. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure white wool. His throne was a blaze of flames and His wheels were burning fire. A river of fire streamed and issued forth from His presence. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him."

 

[HesMyAll]

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE JUDGED BY OTHER PEOPLE'S WALKS WITH GOD....ONLY BY WHETHER WE OBEYED HIS WORD.  Why do people persist with posting man's opinions and thoughts.  It does not matter how holy others perceived them to be because they will be judged by God not man.  A person can appear to be a holy righteous man but can be very seduced in his thinking.  God's word is truth.  If you want to prove something is or isn't so the only way to do that is by showing it is in the word of God.  Not in the word of man. 

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Old Shepherd, greetings again....If you turn on your audio you can listen to words of hope whille you take a journey into the glory of our Father.

"As Far As The Curse Is Found"

Whispering Hope

http://www.smickandsmodoo.com/aaa/lyrics/whisperinghope.htm

George MacDonald (Unspoken Sermons)

http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=BIBLE&read=34805

All Hail The Power Of Jesus Name

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/h/ahtpojn.htm

"The Bible is the written word of God, and because it is written it is confined and limited by the necessities of ink and paper and leather. The Voice of God, however, is alive and free as the sovereign God is free. 'The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.' The life is in the speaking words, God's word in the Bible can have power only because it corresponds to God's Word in the universe. It is the present Voice which makes the written word powerful. Otherwise it would lie locked in slumber within the covers of a book."  A. W. Tozer (The Pursuit Of God) 

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Hi,
the Word of Inspiration is C-L-E-A-R! Obadiah 16, says..".. and they shall be AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN." And verse 15 even tells us that many of these HAVE .. 'drank upon His Holy Mountain'! Compare with Heb. 6:1-6!
This was & still is, ONES FREE CHOICE! See Gen. 4:7. ------P/N/B/

 

[FineLinen]

Hesmyall...greetings to you. You posted...

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE JUDGED BY OTHER PEOPLE'S WALKS WITH GOD....ONLY BY WHETHER WE OBEYED HIS WORD. Why do people persist with posting man's opinions and thoughts. It does not matter how holy others perceived them to be because they will be judged by God not man. A person can appear to be a holy righteous man but can be very seduced in his thinking. God's word is truth. If you want to prove something is or isn't so the only way to do that is by showing it is in the word of God. Not in the word of man.

FineLinen

We are indeed not going to be judged by another walk with the Glory One! The anointing that breaks every fetter is and has been upon ****tim wood (accasia wood overlaid with gold). I am pleased that you only hear from our Lord by way of the Scriptures. Evidently pastors, evangelists, apostles, teachers are not needful for you. If however, you long to know Him by the revelation of His Spirit, there are individuals who He has placed within His Body for the perfecting of the saints. Each of us as living members of the in-Christed ones must know Him for overselves, indeed. But I for one am very grateful for the servants of God who have planted seeds of His glory within my life through the years.

"The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts." A.W. Tozer (The Pursuit Of God)

 

[FineLinen]

Pastor N.B.....clear about what?....torment for the ages? The day of the Lord indeed comes upon all nations. That day is one that is described by the prophet Malachi in the following words...

"But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth/ for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers soap.

And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver' and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

Shall we look at what some of the other prophets are declaring as well? Is it possible that the prophets are speaking in union?

Prepare Your Hearts For The Banquet!

"And the Lord Yahweh shall prepare a lavish banquet (a wondrous feast)...and will destroy the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. And He will swallow up in this mountain the mask of the veil, the veil that is upon all peoples,-- and the web that is woven over all nations. Having swallowed up death victoriously/ displacing death for evermore, the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces.." Isaiah

Zechariah

"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for I am on My way (I am coming) to dwell in the midst of you, it is the oracle of Jehovah.

"And many nations will flee to the Lord (be joined to the Lord) in that day, and be His people and dwell in the midst of thee, and you will know that the Lord of Hosts has sent me unto you." Zechariah 2: 10-11

"Hush, mortals, in the presence of the Lord..."

"Let all flesh be struck with awe, at the presence of the Lord, for He is risen up from his holy clouds."

"Let all mankind be silent before Yahweh!"

"Be silent, living things, in the Lord's presence; yonder in his holy dwelling all is astir." Knox

"...and He shall speak the word and peace unto the nations, and His dominion (His Realm) shall stretch from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth." Zech. 10:10

"I will cleanse them of all the wickedness and sin that they have committed; I will forgive all the evil deeds they have done in rebellion against Me....in this place shall be heard once again the sounds of joy and gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the bride; here too shall be heard voices shouting,

'Praise the Lord of Hosts, for He is good, for His love endures for ever',

as they offer praise and thanksgiving in the house of the Lord. For I will restore the fortunes of the land as once they were. This is the word of the Lord." Jer. 33:


"I beheld till the thrones were cast down and the ANCIENT OF DAYS took His throne. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure white wool. His throne was a blaze of flames and His wheels were burning fire. A river of fire streamed and issued forth from His presence. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him." Daniel

 

[FineLinen]

Pastor N.B....The topic of the thread is Does Hell Exist?

Is this your evidence....c l e a r l y of that declaration?

And let us hear more from the prophets of the Exalted One....

Zephaniah. Did you hear what Daniel declares?

"Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him." Daniel 7:27

Zephaniah, do you behold all dominions serving and obeying the Highest One?

"The Lord shall inspire them with fear when he make all the gods of the earth to waste away; then the coastlands of the nations shall adore Him."....."and all the coasts and islands of the nations will worship Him, every man..." Zeph. 2:11

"Indeed, MY DECISION is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them my indignation, all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of my zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder." Zeph. 3: 8-9


Zephaniah, can it be? The Lofty One will bring all peoples to stand shoulder to shoulder calling on the name of the Lord with purified lips, and worshipping Him?

Haggai has dropped in for a moment. Haggai, have Daniel and Isaiah, and David and Zephaniah lost it?

Haggai

"For thus saith the Lord of hosts, 'Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land. And I will convulse all the nations; and the choice things of all the nations will come, and I will fill this very house with glory, saith the Lord Almighty. 'The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, it is Yahweh Sabaoth who speaks'

"The new glory of this Temple is going to surpass the old says Yahweh Sabaoth, and in this place I will give peace--it is Yahweh Sabaoth who speaks, this is the very word of the Lord."

Prepare Your Hearts For The Banquet

"And the Lord Yahweh shall prepare a lavish banquet (a wondrous feast)...and will destroy the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. And He will swallow up in this mountain the mask of the veil, the veil that is upon all peoples,-- and the web that is woven over all nations. Having swallowed up death victoriously/ displacing death for evermore, the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces.." Isaiah

Your questions Pastor N.B.

1. Will our Lord swallow up death/ displace death?

2. Will our Lord wipe all tears from of all peoples?

3. Will the Lofty One bring all nations to call upon Him and serve Him. Will every knee bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord in worship?

4. Our Lord speaks of all peoples being "devoured" by His zeal and the earth being devoured by His fire. Is the devouring and the purified lips associated? If not, why not?

5. Will all nations and all peoples serve Him?

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Originally posted by FineLinen
Pastor N.B.....clear about what?....torment for the ages?
******
P/N/B/ here:
My My, friend, you remind me of the Laodicean class as seen in Rev. 3:17?
Christ says, "BECAUSE THOU SAYEST"!

You say ... "clear about what? ....torment for the ages?"
Now, is that what I said, or is that what the verse says?? "... And they [SHALL BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN]'' This is what a friend of mine would class as a jesuit tactic? Insinuate a lie to attack? Yet, as for me & my house it SOUNDS MORE LIKE 2 Cor. 4:1-4!

I don't know what teaching (denomination) you profess? But I can tell you one thing, if they READ INSPIRATION AS YOU SEEM TO, they must be in deep trouble with their so/call wisdom? Blind? Naked? (fine linen?) Miserable FOOLISH, and KNOW IT NOT??

In the Master's quickly FINISHED WORK for the 'House of God First' 1 Peter 4:17 & Lev. 16:14---P/N/B/
******


(zaped for this comment)

 

[FineLinen]

Greetings again OldShepherd....The fact of the matter is that in every instance the word used is basanizo, rooted in Basanos. You can dismiss this fact if you please, it changes nothing.

1. It is used of one sick of the palsy (grieviously tormented.) Matt. 8:6

2. It is used of the disciples ship in Galilee, and is translated "tossed with waves." (Matt. 14:24

3. It is translated by the word "toiling" in Mark 6:48

4. It is translated by the word "vexed" in speaking of Lot (2 Pet. 2:8)

5. It is translated by a word that means birth- pangs". (Rev 12:2)

6. In other Scriptures it is translated as "torment" or "tormented."

The meaning of this word, and its usage, harmonizes with the idea of Divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change or not in the sufferer. Through the loving and hidden purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth-pang and the grace of God will not be absent.

The original idea of the word torment is the verb "to put to the test by rubbing on a touchstone." It means to put to the test, or "question by applying some test or torture to discover whether it is true or not." The original ideas was to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. It also signifies "to torture in order to extort a confession."

OldShepherd You post....

How is this response fallacious? It is just a blind cut and paste from some source or other and ignores the context of the passage and disregards the mood, case, and person of the word in question, both of which determine how to best translate it.

Definitions 1-5 can be summarily dismissed based on the context. I think we can safely say that the "wrath of the anger of God" eliminates testing silver or gold on a touchstone, dont you? That only leaves #6.

FineLinen

You can safely do nothing of the sort! Basanizo whether you want to torment our Father's creation for the endless ages, or consider those "tossed (basanizo with waves} or "toiling (basanizo) or "vexed" (basanizo) or the woman "travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered" (basanizo), each word is identical. Does it not seem strange to you that our Lord uses such a strong word for waves, and toiling, and child birth in the same sense as the torment with which you maintain our Lord, "torments" His enemies?

 

[FineLinen]

Origin Of Endless Punishment

Meaning Of Scriptural Terms

Philo's Use Of The Words

Use Of Gehenna

Whence Came The Doctrine (Of Heathen Origen)

The Apocryphal Book Of Enoch

Catholic Hell Copied From Heathen Sources

Early Christianity Adulterated

Original Greek New Testament

http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html

"Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last, and the everliving One. I died; but I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of hades!"

 

 

[FineLinen]

Good morning again OldShepherd and Pastor N.B. Let us begin todays gathering with a hymn.

All Hail The Power Of Jesus Name

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/h/ahtpojn.htm

"Hina en onoma lesous pas gonu kampto epouranios kai epigeious kai katachthonios kai pas glossa hoti lesous Christos kurios eis doxa Theos Pater." Phil. 2: 10,11

"It is because of this also that God has so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other name.

In order that IN the Name of Jesus (so that in adoration of the Name of Jesus) every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Bow=Kampto=

Used of worshippers.

To bow one's self.

Confess= Exomologeo=

Confess/ profess.

A. To acknowledge openly and freely.

B. To celebrate/ give praise to.

Enomologeo Rooted In Homologeo

Homologeo=

To confess.

To declare.

A. To profess/ declare openly and freely.

B. To profess one's self the worshipper of one.

C. To praise and celebrate.

When our Lord speaks of bringing every knee to bow, and every tongue to confession, He is declaring that all beings in the heavens the earth and the underworld will willingly confess, openly and freely, in worship of praise and celebration that He is the Lord.

Your questions for today, brethren

1. What does homologeo mean?

2. What does exomologeo mean?

3. Can you reconcile the vast segments of creation tormenting in an endless realm of agony, while they fall before His Presence in praise and celebration?

4. Is the worship of beings in the heavens and the earth and the underworld forced or free?

5. What is the Koine Greek meaning for reconcile.

6. What is the Koine Greek for subdue.

"In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus, every knee of worshippers shall bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely acclaimed; acknowledged joyfully by beings in the heavens, of those on the earth, and those in the underworld."  

 

 

 

[FineLinen]

"Look to Me and be safe/be delivered/saved, from the farthest part of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.

By My life I have sworn/ I have given a promise of victory/ a promise that shall not be broken, that before Me every knee shall bend, and every tongue shall swear allegiance to My name." Isa. 45

Our Father, today before your gracious Presence we willingly bow ourselves in worship!

http://newhopemusic.com/index.htm

"Now I would hasten to disclaim all sympathy with the popular SALVATION-BY-WILLPOWER cults. I am in radical disagreement with all forms of quasi-Christianity that depends upon the 'latent power with us' or trust to 'creative thinking' instead of the power of God. All these paper thin religious philosophies break down at the same place--in the assumption that the stream of human nature can be made to run backward up over the falls. This it can never do."  A.W.Tozer 

 

[LightBearer]

Another term of the Greek word ba·sa·ni'zo is the Greek noun ba·sa·ni·stes' occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered "jailers" in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and "tormentors" or "torturers" in others. (AS, KJ, JB) Torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although ba·sa·ni'zo is not used here), so ba·sa·ni·stes' came to be applied to jailers. Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: "Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as 'torment' (as it doubtless was), and the 'tormentors' need mean nothing more than jailers." (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999)  And so, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 for example of ones who will be "tormented day and night forever and ever" evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as "torment" is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.  In other words, being Tormented for ever can simply mean being Jailed, imprisoned, restrained or held in Death forever with no hope of a resurection.  No physical torture here just eternally dead.

 

[Evee]

Well I know my thoughts get me in trouble sometimes, but I believe that some people would not be comfortable in heaven.
So God lets them go to hell cause they would rather be there.
May not be so bad for the person that wouldn't be comfy in heaven. Evee

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Evee
Well I know my thoughts get me in trouble sometimes, but I believe that some people would not be comfortable in heaven.
So God lets them go to hell cause they would rather be there.
May not be so bad for the person that wouldn't be comfy in heaven. Evee

 

Hi Again Evee,

Is there any particular scripture(s) that leads you to believe this?