• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Does hell exist?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mgairs, Dec 31, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Which completely disregards everything posted to date on this thread. For example, a detailed discussion of the O.T. scriptures describing hell [Here!].

    The ancient pre-Christian Jews interpreted their Hebrew scriptures to understand that hell was a place of eternal torment. 20th century speculation by disbelievers does NOT change the facts. The Jews of Jesus day taught the same thing. Jesus did NOT contradict those teachings. Several references posted on this thread. The early church, for example, the disciples of John, Ignatius and Polycarp, interpreted the scriptures to understand that hell was a place of eternal torment. Several references posted on this thread. ALL, as in 100% of the standard Hebrew and Greek languages resources, BAGD, TWOT, BDB, TDNT, LSJ all define it as a place of eternal torment. All references posted on this thread

    The only "misunderstanding" comes from those who would deny the truth of the Bible.
     
  2. HesMyAll

    HesMyAll Senior Contributor

    +1,832
    Pentecostal
    Private
    US-Republican
    The Bible says that hell was CREATED for Satan and his angels.  No where does the Bible state that hell is a state of eternity that natural man engineered for himself.  If you sit down with a Bible and a good concordence and look up all the references to hell, it clearly shows that hell IS a place of eternal torment and that there is a very REAL flame in hell.

    Of course the devil just loves it when he can deceive people into thinking otherwise.
     
  3. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    True, HMA, and many of those scriptures have been quoted and expounded on this and the other thread but those who do not want to see, will not see. Cognitive Dissonance.
     
  4. undead1

    undead1 Member

    113
    +0
    First, I never could understand how anyone's spirit could be burnt by a flame.

    Secondly there is nothing inherently incompatible with what I said with hell being created for the devil and his angels. Once you realize that nothing good, enjoyable, pleasant or worthwhile can exist outside of God, it only needs God to take away all this for hell to be created, if subsistence continues coterminously.

    Even the demons continue to enjoy the goodness of God. Remember that the demons begged of Jesus to enter the heard of pigs rather than go down into the abyss, when the demon possessed man from Gergesenes was healed: 

    Matt 8;31-2

    So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

    And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.


     
     
  5. God of Love

    God of Love Regular Member

    328
    +14
    Oneness


    Of course God isn't bound by Universal laws.  He made them.  They do, however, work here for analogies and examples and the sake of argument within HUMAN discussion.

    Nice try to sidestep.  Unfortunately, it didn't cut it.  



    • "Need" is a concept of Man.  As far as I know, no one has mentioned it in correllation with the subject of God "needing" to punish.  It has, of course, been suggested that God punishes, and that would not comply with unconditional love.

      Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
      9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
     
  6. dnich163

    dnich163 dnich163

    520
    +7
    Catholic
    That there is some kind of Hell I have no doubt.

    It could be that it is here on earth in this world, or be that part of us which turns away from God.

    If I am away from my wife and family for any length of time it is "hellish" in a sense.

    If we are totally separated from God then this would be Hell.

    What actual from hell takes may be open to discussion, but that it is a total lack of God is beyond question.

    David
     
  7. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    What is true of humans is NOT necessarily true of God which the original poster was trying to prove. An analogy that holds true for a human condition does NOT restrict God to that same result, circumstance, etc.
    Nice try all you have done is post some meaningless gobbledy gook which did not address anything I said.
     
  8. God of Love

    God of Love Regular Member

    328
    +14
    Oneness


    Right.  I agree with that.  If a HUMAN lays their hand on a hot stove burner, they will get BURNED.  That is a predictable conseqence.  It is not a "punishment" or a "revenge" or "retribution" on the part of the heat.  It is merely an anticipated OUTCOME.

    Using that same analogy, if God were to lay his "hand" on a hot stove burner, he would NOT be burned (as far as we can expect), because God controls these aspects of Universal Law.

    While I have *clearly comprehended* your position and the argument you have suggested, it does not serve as an excuse.

    The cognitive powers (and *limitations*) of our mind were GIVEN TO US BY AN ALL-KNOWING GOD.  



    This is an attitude which *suggests* to me a deep-seated anger and frustration residing in the soul.  That anger is created by fear.

    Rather than post a response which might bring you more fear and frustration, I will pray that God, in His mercy, will restore your soul and will grant you peace.

    May God bless you, OS, free you from the grip of fear, and replace your anger with comfort.
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Just thought I'd share this with the group. It's by an unknown author.

    Isn't it rather peculiar that those we see exhibiting the most intolerance, anger, and short-temperedness also usually preach a god in their own image? Look to the preacher who spends a great deal of his time and energy raking people over the coals, warning them of the wrath to come and then spend a few days with them observing how they interact with people. You will most likely discover they act just like the god they preach. We do become conformed to the image we worship, don't we?

    Those most adamant in their warnings of the "wrath to come" love to quote the scripture, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord." Then they usually quote a few strong wrath scriptures and tie it all together with a good dose of hell-fire. They never quote this scripture in context because it would take the wind right out of their sail.
     

    Romans 12:19 (KJV) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
    21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
     
  10. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others

    Another mindless attack on Chrtistianity. Isn't it rather peculiar that those we see exhibiting the most intolerance, anger, and short temperedeness against Chtistianity CANNOT support their claims with specific information? Case in point this babbling, diatribe "by an unknown author" Five "W"s, who, when, where, what, and why. Neither you nor any other cultist posting on the subject of hell has addressed my lengthy posts citing the Jewish Encyclopedia, first century Jewish sources, and the early church. I have documented my position with ancient sources for about a 700 year period. All you have done is "unknown author".
     
  11. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Does not serve as an excuse for what? To this point you have said nothing I did not already say. I have said nothing which could be considered as an excuse. Here is the post you purported to be responding to, with my response.

    • These examples and analogies work well when we are describing things within the realm of human existence. However, God is not bound or controlled by our so-called laws of nature, physics, etc, therefore these rationalizations do not apply to Him.

      As far as I know no one here, and certainly not I, has suggested God has a "need" to punish or a "need" to do anything else. The fact that God does punish and will punish is recorded in the Bible and has been amply documented and discussed in this thread.

    And what is your point? Have I said anything to contradict that? The original post seemed to be claiming that God acted from the same motivations and for the same reasons as humans. And while God is ALL KNOWING He still is NOT restricted to the same limitations that we humans are, therefore our anaolgies and rationalizations do NOT apply to God. which is what I said in the first place. And while "The [limited] cognitive powers (and *limitations*) of our mind were GIVEN TO US BY AN ALL-KNOWING GOD.", we are NOT all knowing. I fail to see the purpose of this statement. It does not address anything I have said.
    Thank you Dr. GOL for the 20 second pop psychology analysis. You do NOT know enough about me to even begin to make these kind of accusations. My purpose is to respond to the many false teachings being posted, to assist those who are less knowledgeable from being lured into cults.
    Oh I do so appreciate your consideration, again making false assumptions. May I suggest you refrain from the arm chair psychology and simply address what I post.
     
  12. God of Love

    God of Love Regular Member

    328
    +14
    Oneness



    • Old Shepard,

      Let's see if I can make this more clear by basically re-capping the events.

      1.  Myself and another poster were discussing whether or not God's sending souls to Hell was a "punishment" or a "consequence". 

      2.  I had responded to that poster, trying to illucidate the difference beteen punishmentsby and naturally occuring "consequences".

      3.  You jumped in and said:

      4. I responded to you, and said (paraphrased), I agree that God is not bound by the laws -- He created them -- however, He gave us a human mind with its own abilities and limitations, and therefore your argument does not serve as an excuse. 

      The point I was trying to make is, as I said, God gave us our mind with it's limitations.  Because of this, and because He is "all-knowing", he would know that the HUMAN perception of His "damning souls to Hell" would be perceived as act of PUNISHMENT.  He would know that it differs from our perceptions of the "unbaised" consequences of defying natural laws.  Therefore, because God knows this and because we are limited to thinking/debating in humanly terms, your statement that "God is above these laws" does not serve as as "excuse" that we, as humans, should not use such analogies.

      Humans can not debate in "God terms".  We must debate/discuss in terms we understand.

      God knows this.

      "For [as] the heavens are <B>higher</B> than the earth, so are my ways <B>higher</B> than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

      Regarding natural consequences, if a person places their hand on a hot stove burner, they will be burned.&nbsp; It does not matter whether they are black or green, rich or poor,&nbsp;"good" or&nbsp;"bad", or love the stove, or hate it, the outcome is exactly the same without bias.&nbsp; It is a predictable consequence for a given action.

      A punishment however differs by involving the "will"/"desire" of the person administering the punishment.&nbsp; It can also be&nbsp;"lifted" or "forgiven" -- whereas a consequence can not.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

      &nbsp;
    • You may or may not realize it, but your answers/replies come across as very flippant and arrogant.&nbsp; They appear to seeth with anger and hatred toward anyone who "dares" to oppose your viewpoint.&nbsp; This atitude&nbsp;would directly contradict&nbsp;Jesus's teaching us&nbsp;to "love thine enemies".&nbsp;

      I am hoping such behavior is not your&nbsp;intent, as that would be fruitless.&nbsp;&nbsp;I know sometimes that things can come across differently in text, opposed to verbal conversation, and hope that I am merely "taking it the wrong way".&nbsp;

      Being human, I can be wrong.

      The question is, am I wrong for praying for you, believing I was right?

      May God Bless you and bring you comfort.

      God of Love



      &nbsp;
     
  13. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    You can twist and spin it anyway you like OS, this is not an attack on Christianity it is just the act of refuting your bankrupt theory of the damnable unbiblical&nbsp;heresy known as never ending torture of a so called burning hell that is nowhere to&nbsp;be found in the word of God!&nbsp; BTW, I noticed that you left out the only valid documentation that has all the authority over all of your extensive and exhaustive research and never ending loooooong posts, the inspired words that Paul wrote!&nbsp; Shall I repeat them?&nbsp; Why not!?

    Romans 12:19 (KJV) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.&nbsp; Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.&nbsp; Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


    Oh and er, BTW,&nbsp; Paul is not an unknown author!&nbsp; However, the unknown one makes much more commonsence and logic then you will ever come close to. have a happy V Day!

    &nbsp;
     
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    It is not found in the Bible If you ignore ALL the O.T. and N.T. verses I posted. No spinning or twisting at all I quoted each verse exactly as it appears in the Bible then I commented on it . For example, in the O.T. how does beating someone with a rod keep them out of the grave? Or how did all of the grave move and rise up and speak when the king of Babylon arrived?
    No I did NOT I posted them earlier on this thread you simply ignored them, the same way every heretical cult does. You only cite the verses which seem to support you, and either ignore the others or claim that they are mistranslated

    • Romans 12:19 (KJV) Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.&nbsp; Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.&nbsp; Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
    Explain the highlighted words, please.
     
  15. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Here a few of my posts on this thread alone where I included the inspired words of both the O.T. and the N.T.

    Post #114 O.T.


    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31365-12.html

    Post #102 O.T. and N.T.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31365-11.html

    More than one post O.T.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31365-10.html

    Post # 52 N.T.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31365-6.html

    Post #36 O.T.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/31365-4.html

    OBTW are you familiar with the 9th commandment?
     
  16. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    This may be what you intended to say BUT it is not what you said. I repeat nothing I said could be considered suggesting an excuse for anything. What I said was analogies, and I include similes, and other literary comparative devices, do NOT apply to God.
    The Bible uses the word punishment.
    Anger and hatred are pretty strong terms for somseone who merely expresses their opinion direct and to the point and points out how some other viewpoints contradict the scriptures and I strive to do so without getting personal. For example, there is a BIG difference between saying "That is wrong!" and "You are a liar!" Do you know the difference? Lets see.
    You are and you are.
    Let's see? Your previous post and my responses.
    Thank you Dr. GOL for the 20 second pop psychology analysis. You do NOT know enough about me to even begin to make these kind of accusations. My purpose is to respond to the many false teachings being posted, to assist those who are less knowledgeable from being lured into cults.
    What attitude are you talking about? I posted what I believed and backed it up with scripture. Second,"That anger is created by fear." You presumed that I have anger and fear. I have neither, at least relating to anything on this forum. Next sentence, you continue to presume that I have fear and frustration concerning you or your posts, else how could anything you say bring me "MORE"? Last sentence I quoted, more presumption that I need to be "freed" from the GRIP of fear and that I have "anger" which needs to be replaced.

    Pray for me if you feel led to, address my posts, and leave out the pop psychology.
     
  17. God of Love

    God of Love Regular Member

    328
    +14
    Oneness
    &nbsp;[<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">QUOTE]Today at 01:29 AM OldShepherd said this in Post #176

    I repeat nothing I said could be considered suggesting an excuse for anything. What I said was analogies, and I include similes, and other literary comparative devices, do NOT apply to God.[/quote]<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I agree that -- as far as we as humans can ascertain -- God would not experience the consequences of natural occurences.&nbsp; However, these analogies DO APPLY&nbsp;to human conversation, thinking, debate, discussion, etc., and are NECCESSARY TOOLS in establishing what we believe.&nbsp; Just because God does not experience the consequences of natural events is not an EXCUSE for humans to capitulate these tools from&nbsp;their debates, in determining what they believe, as you APPEARED to be suggesting.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>


    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If that's what you were suggesting, it is wrong.&nbsp; If not, no harm done.

    <o:p></o:p></SPAN>
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Had you read the posts you jumped in on, you would have seen that I was&nbsp;advocating that&nbsp;it was PUNISHMENT (as you now&nbsp;pointed out the Bible says).&nbsp; The other poster (dmmrjr) was suggesting it was merely a natural consequence.</SPAN>
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    </SPAN>
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Merely expresses their opinion?&nbsp; Without getting personal?&nbsp; You should back up and read some of your posts.&nbsp; I don't personally feel that name-calling/stereotyping OR making fun of one's analogy&nbsp;fits the criteria of "expressing one's opinion without getting personal".&nbsp; Read your&nbsp;response below for two examples in one brief paragraph.</SPAN>
    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    </SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If you are as sincere and innocent as you profess, I suggest you review your approach.
    </SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    .</SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Perhaps you do not realize how you come across at times.&nbsp; Not in ALL of your posts, but in SOME.&nbsp; As I said, your responses sometimes come across as flippant and contemptful.&nbsp; Remarks such as "Dr. GOL" or terming someone's response as&nbsp;"gooebley gook" or assuming others are members of "cults"&nbsp;will not win you respect from someone you are hoping to help.</SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    </SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Fear exists in levels.&nbsp; As an example, there is a huge difference between feeling "timid" and "sheer terror".</SPAN> Therefore, you can feel fear, and be brought MORE.

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
    </SPAN>

    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I&nbsp;have and will continue to pray that God provides you with comfort and understanding.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN>

    God Bless,&nbsp;



    <P class=MsoNormal>God of Love
     
  18. God of Love

    God of Love Regular Member

    328
    +14
    Oneness


    Franklin,

    I wholeheartedly agree.&nbsp;

    The irony is, THEY CAN'T&nbsp;SEE IT.&nbsp; They preach of a kind, loving, acceptive&nbsp;example set forth by a Master -- He who choose to seek "sinners" -- yet they act with&nbsp;contempt&nbsp;and disdain to all who question or interpret differently.

    They claim to walk freely in love and liberty, yet are shackled by fear and torment.

    God bless you.&nbsp; I hope you'll pray for them, as I do.&nbsp; We might not be able to help them see the light, but perhaps God can...

    God of Love&nbsp;&nbsp;
     
  19. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    The only “damnable unbiblical heresy” around here is your bankrupt 19th century cult teachings of Charlie Russell.

    • Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
      Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
      20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. .

      Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
      10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone. in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
      11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.: and they have no rest day nor night., who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    If you consider being in the body of a pig and drowning as "goodness". I don't!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...