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Featured Does God ordain all things?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hammster, May 7, 2020.

  1. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    To some theologies, we are. Those aren’t the true ones though. Those who believe this, however, don’t actually live it because they blame you, not God, for what you say. If they really believed it they’d blame God for everything anyone does.
     
  2. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    If He ordains all evil, you can’t trust Him at all.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Of course not.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Why not? That would mean He has a purpose for it.
     
  5. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Means he does evil. You trust someone who plans and does moral evil??
     
  6. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    How are we not in what you believe?
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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  8. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Because there’s nothing that I believe that makes us robots. But I’d gladly be God’s robot. How about you?
     
  9. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

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    God does NOT do evil. If God did evil than he never would have died for his sheep and he would have let everyone go and have never judged a single human being or Satan and his demons. Plus he would have joined Satan and his Angel's when he rebelled and taken a part in the fall of humanity and left us in our sins. The world would FOREVER be evil and full of sin FOREVER! Does the Bible say that? Of course not! The bible says that one day we will live with God in paradise! That one day sin will be eradicated FOREVER!

    Instead, God uses sin for good. I could come up with many of my personal experiences with this but, let's look at the bible yes? Pilate, Ciaphas, and the Pharisees all condemned Jesus to death right? The soldiers who crucified him put a crown of thorns on his head and gave him a staff and mockingly worshipped him as their "king". The same soldiers who made Jesus carry his cross, who mocked him when he was on the cross and the same thief that caused one of Gods sheep to reveal himself and come to God with a repentant heart.

    That was ALL in Gods plan every exact second of it the bible says so. The bible also says that it was also in his plan to punish all of them for crucifying and mocking the son of God. But this is just one of the many examples of scripture and in our personal lives of God using sin in our lives for good. Why was this good? To "force" men to do evil and by his will? Because if Jesus was NOT sacrificed and treated in such a manner than there would have been NO hope for humanity AT ALL (and this is because God is good and has to punish sin)! The good was that these sins made salvation possible for Gods elect.

    What you are essentially doing is telling God how to BE instead of accepting what the bible says God IS. You're inventing up your own God in your head and telling God to be what you personally think he should be. He who CREATED you and is FAR above you and everything else that exists or ever CAN exist.

    I'm sorry you have a hard time accepting the truths of reformed theology but it is what the bible teaches.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
  10. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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  11. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Actually Jesus said, “it is necessary that temptation comes but woe to him through whom they come.” It’s unjust of God to force a man to sin and then say “woe” to him who sins. Reformed theology is not biblical at all.
     
  12. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Yes it does.

    Your question: Means he does evil. You trust someone who plans and does moral evil??

    My reply:

    As we can see, God always has a purpose for sin. Look at Genesis.


    As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
    Genesis 50:20

    God intended for this evil act to occur. The brothers, also, intended for it to occur, but for a different reason. Does this mean that God causes them to sin? No. But it was ordained to happen just that way.

    And if you’d take the time to look up his dealings with Assyria, you’ll see that he not only ordained them to punish Israel, He punished them for it.

    Then there’s the cross.

    For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
    — Acts 4:27-28

    So if you wonder if God ever ordains sin for His ultimate purpose, wonder no more.
     
  13. Scott Husted

    Scott Husted Well-Known Member

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    I make a nucular bomb knowing you will use it but tell you not to ... then hold you eternally responsible for using what I gave you ...

    Free will's choice ... love me or burn ...
     
  14. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    God didn’t make a nuclear bomb. Try something real.
     
  15. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

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    Yes he did. I see no problem with it or what I said or with what reformed theology says.

    Yes, sin is of the devil that's a biblical fact but it is also a biblical fact that God uses our sins for good. Many of us have given examples from scripture that you have completely ignored and refuse to give an argument to. Mainly because, there is no argument. God uses sin for good. It's a fact of scripture.
     
  16. Scott Husted

    Scott Husted Well-Known Member

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    God made man knowing he would, and for some a nuclear bomb is as real as it gets ... here's a picture of my dad just before they detonated a bomb on a tower to see what effects it would have on the troops ... all of my dad's platoon died of cancer ...



    Screenshot_20200318-112324_Photos (1).jpg

    And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    He acts as if he was surprised with the outcome of his decision to do so ... why ...
     
  17. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    This is what I don't understand about Calvinism theology .... I don't see how it keeps freewill in tact ... but that's another topic for discussion.

    Back to the OP ... went and revisited Psalms 139:16

    In the context of the Psalm ( especially verses 13-16), the term yotsar (yatsar) as well as the writing in God’s book as referring to God’s intentions at the time of the psalmist’s fetal development, not to an unalterable decree (ordain) of God.

    This passage is to convey God’s sovereignty over our lives beginning at conception, not to teach predestination. Our Creator is concerned that we fulfill our great purpose in life—to obtain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God—but we must willingly accept His salvation and practice His way of life. He wants us to choose rightly, but the choice is still ours.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’ve not brought up predestination, nor was that in mind.

    As to your first state, I’ll repeat.

    As we can see, God always has a purpose for sin. Look at Genesis.


    As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
    Genesis 50:20

    God intended for this evil act to occur. The brothers, also, intended for it to occur, but for a different reason. Does this mean that God causes them to sin? No. But it was ordained to happen just that way.

    And if you’d take the time to look up his dealings with Assyria, you’ll see that he not only ordained them to punish Israel, He punished them for it.

    Then there’s the cross.

    For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
    — Acts 4:27-28

    So if you wonder if God ever ordains sin for His ultimate purpose, wonder no more.
     
  19. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Purpose:
    the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists

    It did not purpose sin ... we were't created for the purpose to sin ... we were created in His image ... the purpose being NOT to sin.

    no .... He turns the table on sin and the Plan to overcome it (defeat it) ... the cross and relationship with Jesus (who is God) being the only way and was the Plan put in place.

    Sin entered the world due to bad choices. God did know that would happen ... He didn't purpose sin to happen ... it happened because the enemy (lucifer) along with his minions made bad choices and polluted Gods created perfection in heaven (and after being expelled from there) polluted perfection on the earth through Adam & Eve.

    Sin is the enemy. He didn't create or ordain enemies .... enemies came from/come from bad choices His intelligent beings made/make for themselves ... choice to be an enemy or not.

    Matthew 13

    28An enemy did this,’ he replied.

    So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn."

    He created everything perfect in the beginning ... because of free will (necessary for true love to exist - as love can not be forced)

    He uses the godly and the ungodly to accomplish His will ... His will is for good. Throughout all He is just and His will for good may come through His wrath or through His love until ... including on His own people ... even His own son. Jesus experienced both the wrath (suffering) and the love (resurrected & restored to His throne & the way man might be reconciled with God) ... by willingly laying down His life provided the way mankind might be reconciled with God.

    Acts 4:27-28 (and his dealings with Assyria, and others) ... He knew/knows what would happen ... before it happened ... He always has a plan in place to combat or turn the tables on sin (the enemy) ... either through wrath or through love ... sometimes both.

    God's Wrath and Sin: God's wrath is not a permanent attribute of God, that is to say something that by nature constantly characterizes Him and His actions. Since His wrath is not irrational, there's always a reason for it or something that provokes it (Deut. 4:24). It is provoked by sin (provoked by the enemy), and it is fundamentally His reaction to the irrational presence of sin and evil in the life of His creatures and in the world (Rom. 1:18). Therefore His wrath on any of his vessels comes to an end once His good purpose is achieved. Contrast that with His love that endures forever (Isa. 54:8).

    He turns the tables on sin (the enemy) ... either through His wrath or though His love.

    It's a on-going battle ... we are in a war (spiritual war) ... the war between good and evil .... the wheat and the tares grow together ... until He returns.

    Thank God we know the war the war ends and the war has been won ... when there is nobody left to be saved ... that is ... all have made their decisions (now and in the future) .... He will return (and only He knows when that will be)

    1st Corinthians 15:26
    English Standard Version
    The last enemy to be destroyed is death by the wrath of God.

    Ephesians 6 - How to fight against the enemy

    The Full Armor of God

    10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

    and AMEN.
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster A-Atheist Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You can’t deconstruct my post and respond to one part while ignoring the actual argument. That’s disingenuous.
     
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