Does God ordain all things?

eleos1954

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God didn’t make man sin, but sin was part of His plan.

Seems to me ... if that's the belief then ... the fall of mankind was a "set up" by God himself ... there was nothing Lucifer-1/3 angels, Adam & Eve could do but commit sin.
No ... they had choice ... and made wrong choices.

God created His beings perfect ... He did know (foreknowledge) they would sin .... and thus the PLAN of salvation was put in place before creation (Him having foreknowledge) sin would enter the world ... through an enemy.

Gods original plan was perfection (no sin) .... and BTW we will be restored to His Plan of perfection one day. Thank you Jesus!

Matthew 13:28

New American Standard Bible
"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'

An enemy of God (Satan) introduced sin into the world (and heaven also) and God knew it would happen .... His intelligent beings would choose to sin.

God created choice ... Lucifer - the 1/3, Adam & Eve ... made their own Plans instead of following Gods original plan (not to sin) ... they violated God's original perfect plan.

God didn’t make man sin ...

True

...
but sin was part of His plan

Not true ... He gave choice and knew what the choice(s) would be.
 
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Scott Husted

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Good, then we both believe he’s not ordaining/controlling all that happens.

He can't be God if shoots an arrow into the air but doesn't know where it will land, but knowingly shooting the arrow in the first place makes you responsible for the outcome, it's an equitable judgement ...
 
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Hammster

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Good, then we both believe he’s not ordaining/controlling all that happens.
That’s not true. He does just that. You can’t trust Him otherwise.
 
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Hammster

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Seems to me ... if that's the belief then ... the fall of mankind was a "set up" by God himself ... there was nothing Lucifer-1/3 angels, Adam & Eve could do but commit sin.
No ... they had choice ... and made wrong choices.

God created His beings perfect ... He did know (foreknowledge) they would sin .... and thus the PLAN of salvation was put in place before creation (Him having foreknowledge) sin would enter the world ... through an enemy.

Gods original plan was perfection (no sin) .... and BTW we will be restored to His Plan of perfection one day. Thank you Jesus!

Matthew 13:28

New American Standard Bible
"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'

An enemy of God (Satan) introduced sin into the world (and heaven also) and God knew it would happen .... His intelligent beings would choose to sin.

God created choice ... Lucifer - the 1/3, Adam & Eve ... made their own Plans instead of following Gods original plan (not to sin) ... they violated God's original perfect plan.



True



Not true ... He gave choice and knew what the choice(s) would be.
It this is true, then the cross wasn’t plan A, but instead it was plan B.

That’s not biblical.
 
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eleos1954

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It this is true, then the cross wasn’t plan A, but instead it was plan B.

That’s not biblical.

No it isn't because the plan of salvation that was put into place was before anything was created! Mankind wasn't created yet.
 
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Hammster

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No it isn't because the plan of salvation that was put into place was before anything was created! Mankind wasn't created yet.
There wouldn’t have been a need for it if Adam hadn’t sinned. And Christ would have lost out on the blessings promised to Him by His Father. So it’s all convoluted to think that sin wasn’t in the plan. God even needed sin for the crucifixion to occur.

No, the plan from eternity was always for the cross.
 
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eleos1954

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There wouldn’t have been a need for it if Adam hadn’t sinned. And Christ would have lost out on the blessings promised to Him by His Father. So it’s all convoluted to think that sin wasn’t in the plan. God even needed sin for the crucifixion to occur.

No, the plan from eternity was always for the cross.

I remain

God's plan was indeed salvation because he knew His perfection would be compromised by choice of his free willed beings making that choice for themselves.

What you're saying is God created/caused sin (sin was His plan) ... and no ... He created beings that made a choice to sin and through His foreknowledge knew they would and put the plan of Salvation in place before creation took place.

well ... we've beat this subject to death ;o) and neither going to budge ... I agree to disagree and moving on ... thanks for the conversation.

God Bless
 
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Hammster

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I remain

God's plan was indeed salvation because he knew His perfection would be compromised by choice of his free willed beings making that choice for themselves.

What you're saying is God created/caused sin (sin was His plan) ... and no ... He created beings that made a choice to sin and through His foreknowledge knew they would and put the plan of Salvation in place before creation took place.

well ... we've beat this subject to death ;o) and neither going to budge ... I agree to disagree and moving on ... thanks for the conversation.

God Bless
Sin wasn’t His plan. The cross was His plan and glorifying His Son was His plan. Sin was necessary for that to happen. His covenant with His Son precedes creation.
 
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Hammster

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But I digress.

As we can see, God always has a purpose for sin. Look at Genesis.


As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
— Genesis 50:20

God intended for this evil act to occur. The brothers, also, intended for it to occur, but for a different reason. Does this mean that God causes them to sin? No. But it was ordained to happen just that way.

And if you’d take the time to look up his dealings with Assyria, you’ll see that he not only ordained them to punish Israel, He punished them for it.

Then there’s the cross.

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
— Acts 4:27-28

So if you wonder if God ever ordains sin for His ultimate purpose, wonder no more.
 
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eleos1954

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Sin wasn’t His plan. The cross was His plan and glorifying His Son was His plan. Sin was necessary for that to happen. His covenant with His Son precedes creation.


Sin wasn’t His plan.

Agree with that

The cross was His plan and glorifying His Son was His plan.

Jesus was already glorified before creation, so says Jesus

John 17:5
Berean Study Bible
And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Our differences seem to be this ...

You believe in predestination

I believe in Gods foreknowledge
 
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Agree with that



Jesus was already glorified before creation, so says Jesus

John 17:5
Berean Study Bible
And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Our differences seem to be this ...

You believe in predestination

I believe in Gods foreknowledge
Foreknowledge is foreknowing, not foreseeing. So you believe in foreseeing. I believe in foreknowledge.


For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
— 1 Peter 1:20
 
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eleos1954

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Foreknowledge is foreknowing, not foreseeing. So you believe in foreseeing. I believe in foreknowledge.


For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
— 1 Peter 1:20

God has both foreknowledge and foresight. He knows all and He sees all.
 
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Hammster

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God has both foreknowledge and foresight. He knows all and He sees all.
I know. But His plans aren’t based on what He sees. His plans are based on what He determines will happen.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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He can't be God if shoots an arrow into the air but doesn't know where it will land, but knowingly shooting the arrow in the first place makes you responsible for the outcome, it's an equitable judgement ...
God doesn’t shoot arrows into the air at all. Let’s pick a real example. God makes creatures with free will and is therefore NOT responsible for what they choose even if He knows it. That is what freedom means.
 
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