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All they need to know is that they are lost and going to the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ died for their sins and gives them eternal life, so that they will NOT perish in the lake of fire.I think this information should be used by the one leading someone to Christ. A lost individual wanting to deal with the conviction they feel needs to be led to Christ. They know nothing of doctrine typically.
Let's just leave out my "approval" in this. This is about God's plan, not mine.A lost person cannot articulate this to meet your approval.
You're going to need to expand on this silly statement.You have completely lost touch with the state of the lost.
If by "doctrine" you refer to the rest of the Bible, then, sure.They will get their doctrine ironed out later.
To the Savior. To the doctrine of salvation, which means how to be saved.Initially they need to be led by the hand.
These verses are clear enough. Those who haven't believed in Christ WILL BE condemned. Why can't a lost person understand that they will be condemned if they don't believe in Christ, who gives eternal life to those who believe in Him?A lost person does not fully grasp any of this.
I didn't say there is no such thing as saving grace.My comment was based on what YOU SAID.
If there is no such thing as saving faith, then there is no salvation in that viewpoint.
Simple as that.
Well, that's a very different definition than what you were describing earlier.He knew who Jesus was; the Messiah, who was returning to His kingdom. He had saving faith.
But you said something to the effect that if I didn't agree with you I wasn't saved.I laid out what saving faith is and means. You tell me.
btw, salvation cannot be revoked.
Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
Eternal life is a gift of God.
Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It is. But that is not what you said.Why isn't that saving faith to you?
2 aspects is a formula.Where did I present any "formula". I explained what saving faith requires. Which of the 2 aspects do you object to?
This is exactly what you posted in #107:I didn't say there is no such thing as saving grace.
That's not what you posted.I was objecting to your definition of it.
I said nothing of the sort.But you said something to the effect that if I didn't agree with you I wasn't saved.
How would they know that in advance of being saved?FreeGrace2 said: ↑
When "faith" is used as a noun, it refers to the "body of information" as found in the Bible.
No. That would be ridiculous. I hold every lost person responsible for understanding that God has revealed Himself in creation (Rom 1:19,20) and has no excuse for not being thankful to Him. And by such realization, I hold them responsible for seeking Him, per Acts 17:27.
I also hold them responsible for accepting the gospel, as Titus 2:11 says.
What became of your 2 aspects?All they need to know is that they are lost and going to the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ died for their sins and gives them eternal life, so that they will NOT perish in the lake of fire.
That's the doctrine that they need to know.
That's only your definition of 'formula'.2 aspects is a formula.
I think a review of the verses I shared is in order here. Since God HAS revealed Himself to everyone, no one has any excuse for not recognizing His existence.How would they know that in advance of being saved?
Correct doctrine essentially tells us truths about the nature and will of God. This is what Jesus came to reveal. We search for these truths in Scripture. People record them in creeds, confessions, catechisms, etc. The thief might've appreciated the same had he been given more opportunity with a longer life. As it is he did the best he could with what he was given: a compromised, hopeless situation, direct knowledge of Jesus-and grace.I wonder this, not to open up any excuses to ignore sound doctrine, by any means, but because so many different doctrines seem to be given this treatment among different denominations.
Yet I keep going back to the thief on the cross. He didn’t have time to learn any of what we might call essential doctrines yet he got saved. He didn’t have any time to understand TULIP, get his end time theology in order, argue about spiritual gifts, worry about Pauline versus Jamesian view on faith and works; he simply knew Christ in his very spirit being and he was saved right there.
Any thoughts?
I didn't expect this to be so hard to understand.What became of your 2 aspects?
Right. They don't have it, nor should we expect them to.To the Savior. To the doctrine of salvation, which means how to be saved.
What I was responding to in your post was much more complicated than that.These verses are clear enough. Those who haven't believed in Christ WILL BE condemned. Why can't a lost person understand that they will be condemned if they don't believe in Christ, who gives eternal life to those who believe in Him?
Is it a biblical term, or did you make it up?This is exactly what you posted in #107:
"I'm not sure there is any such thing as "saving faith"."
So, an explanation is in order here.
That's not what you posted.
Here's what you said, "Then I'm not sure you have salvation."I said nothing of the sort.
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