Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

[GodsGrace101]

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

I'm not sure that Hades is the same place where the prisoners were held.

Hades is the place spoken of in Luke 16...there were two places there, separated by a chasm. One was a place of comfort,,,in Luke 16 it's named as Abraham's Bossom...and the other was a place of torment.

I don't know that anyone really knows who the imprisoned spirits were....Perhaps those that were before Noah and had no laws to follow...

Thanks for your reply.

 

[RDKirk]

All they need to know is that they are lost and going to the lake of fire, and that Jesus Christ died for their sins and gives them eternal life, so that they will NOT perish in the lake of fire.

That's the doctrine that they need to know.

They don't actually even need to know about "the lake of fire" or eternal life or any that Christianese stuff.

Through the enablement of the Father, they will know that they are lost, even if they don't know the Christianese to know what "lost" means. They will know that Jesus has found them. They will know that they are saved, even if they don't know the Christianese of what they're saved from.

"What must I do to be saved?"

How much did the Philippian jailer know about all that? He knew his life sucked. He knew he existed on the edge, only a moment from life or death any day for the slightest error. He was running, and he didn't even know what he was running from.

But in two men who had actually been sentenced to a long and horrible death through sepsis, he saw something he didn't have...and needed to have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They don't actually even need to know about "the lake of fire" or eternal life or any that Christianese stuff.

lol. So a peson doesn't have to know "any of that Christianese stuff" in order to become a Christian. What a hoot!! And absurd.

If a person doesn't know about or understand the end point of his/her soul at physical death, there would be no need for them to understand that they are bound for the lake of fire, commonly referred to as hell.

What in the world (or out of the world) would a person have to be aware of being SAVED FROM, if not the lake or hell?

Through the enablement of the Father, they will know that they are lost, even if they don't know the Christianese to know what "lost" means. They will know that Jesus has found them. They will know that they are saved, even if they don't know the Christianese of what they're saved from.

And how will they know any of this, if they don't know they will end up in the lake/hell IF they don't possess the free gift of eternal life?

iow, what do you tell unsaved people to do to be saved? And what are they being saved from?

"What must I do to be saved?"

How much did the Philippian jailer know about all that? He knew his life sucked. He knew he existed on the edge, only a moment from life or death any day for the slightest error. He was running, and he didn't even know what he was running from.

It's rather simple to know what he knew. All we have to do is read the text to find out.

Acts 16-
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

First, we know that this slave girl was demon possessed and was good at fortune telling, as she earned a lot of money for her owners.

Second, we know that she followed Paul and company and SHOUTED for "many days" that "these men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you THE WAY TO BE SAVED".

So, it's quite clear that the majority of the city population was quite aware of what she was shouting for many days as she followed Paul. And the title "Most High God" would obviously be a title that Jews used for the God of the OT and Creator of heavens and earth.

And the jailer would have known all this, if not from her own actions and SHOUTING, then from the reason he was to guard Paul in prison.

I see no other explanation for how this hardened jailer would even know he needed to be saved. But the earthquake sure woke him up!!

But in two men who had actually been sentenced to a long and horrible death through sepsis, he saw something he didn't have...and needed to have.

That too. But don't discount the message from the slave girl. Word must have gotten around, and pretty fast.

 

[RDKirk]

lol. So a peson doesn't have to know "any of that Christianese stuff" in order to become a Christian. What a hoot!! And absurd.

If a person doesn't know about or understand the end point of his/her soul at physical death, there would be no need for them to understand that they are bound for the lake of fire, commonly referred to as hell.

What in the world (or out of the world) would a person have to be aware of being SAVED FROM, if not the lake or hell?


And how will they know any of this, if they don't know they will end up in the lake/hell IF they don't possess the free gift of eternal life?

iow, what do you tell unsaved people to do to be saved? And what are they being saved from?


It's rather simple to know what he knew. All we have to do is read the text to find out.

Acts 16-
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

First, we know that this slave girl was demon possessed and was good at fortune telling, as she earned a lot of money for her owners.

Second, we know that she followed Paul and company and SHOUTED for "many days" that "these men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you THE WAY TO BE SAVED".

So, it's quite clear that the majority of the city population was quite aware of what she was shouting for many days as she followed Paul. And the title "Most High God" would obviously be a title that Jews used for the God of the OT and Creator of heavens and earth.

And the jailer would have known all this, if not from her own actions and SHOUTING, then from the reason he was to guard Paul in prison.

I see no other explanation for how this hardened jailer would even know he needed to be saved. But the earthquake sure woke him up!!


That too. But don't discount the message from the slave girl. Word must have gotten around, and pretty fast.

You seem to be arguing that demons preach a saving gospel. Is that really your intention?

I suspect the jailer was spending his days in the jail--because it was very clear that he was worried for his very life about anything going wrong in the prison.

I would also point out that historically, Philippi was a city of Roman citizens (not Greeks) from which Jews had been expelled at that time just as they had been expelled from Rome (by the same edict of Claudius). That's why there was no synagogue at Philippi when Paul visited.

Their crime was that they were Jews in the city, and that is what the demon was pointing out. Notice the demon said nothing about Jesus. The demon had no intention of preaching the gospel, but rather intended to disrupt what Paul and his company were really there to do.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Jesus said he would be "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
But he was laid in an above ground tomb. So, where did he go?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Jesus wax speaking to him as "I Am" just as he had spoken to him. Jesus went to the Grave just like he said he would. The heart of the Earth is Jerusalem, not the realm of the dead.

 

[Calvin_1985]

It's amazing how people ask a simple questions and then numerous Christians come along and turn into a debate of opinions. This kind of strife is vanity. You guys need to stop.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well now it seems your basing your beliefs on your own personal feelings and not acting as the beans did to search daily the scriptures to find if what has been said is true.

Not based on my feelings. It's based on what I read of your responses that are not Scripturally based. Despite the fact you think they are.

For example:

2. Here is a link to a shorter version of the study that shows the true meaning of the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth(there are longer and more detailed ones you could read as well).
Shepherd's Rod Message

This does not explain that the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth has to do with the wrath of God.

Chris is the only one that is risen.

This is not true either. Jesus is the first one raised and the only one raised from eternal destruction. Others have been raised from the dead because Jesus was raised from eternal destruction. The atonement took place both within the time table that governs the cosmos as well as in eternity. This is why Revelation says Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world".

"As to the changing of the body. We are made like the Lord(spiritual),

The body of Christ that came out of the grave was the same body that went into the grave. He was only transformed to glorified state after ascending to heaven, 40 days post resurrection.

Prior to this, although raised from the dead, He was still flesh and blood. (If he'd gotten cut, he still would have bleed; because "the life is in the blood" and if there's no blood; there's no life.) Jesus did not rise from the dead as an animated corpse or "spiritual entity". He was literally and physically alive in every way. That is a fundamental belief of the Christian faith. The bodily resurrection of Christ.

In the 40 days between resurrection and ascension, Jesus still ate, drank, slept, went to the bathroom and bathed. A lot of people seem to have this idea that Jesus had "special powers" to pop in and out of places like a transporter from Star Trek. Part of the atonement had to do with delivering the material world from the curse brought upon it because of man's transgression. Jesus proved He'd overcome this too by raising the physical body. He wasn't a ghost. He wasn't a "spiritual entity". He says this to the disciples at one point. Proving he's flesh and blood alive by eating in front of them.

We will be as the angels are in heaven. Not of Flesh but spiritual(celestial creatures). You have to remember Christ had to become flesh, he was not always a being of flesh but one of the spirit.

The context of the passages that speak of "being like the angels" has to do with marriage, not state of body. Jesus says marriage is for the children of this world. The reason being is because death now reigns. This is why we reproduce. We won't reproduce in the new heavens and new earth because there's no death. There's also application here to Jesus never getting married and producing children. But that's another subject.

When Christ was risen he rose spiritually, that is why he told Mary not to touch him.

There were probably very practical reasons why Jesus told Mary not to touch him at that particular time. And that was not because he "rose spiritually". If Mary had thrown her arms around Him, she would have discovered He was a solid living life form in a physical body that was just as human as hers.

His telling her: "Don't touch me I have to ascend to the Father"; I think had more to do with the pattern of how Jesus dealt with things in this life. His "default setting" was "run to Poppa". He'd done that His entire life. He lived constantly surrounded by Father and Spirit, as well as intimately acquainted with His own Divinity. He'd lived His whole life in this loving peaceful fellowship; only to endure the process of having that all torn from his existence in order to atone for sin. Not just the physical suffering, but in the very end, he was left all alone and that was absolutely devastating.

Now I know what suicidal depression feels like and that's bad; but I have no idea what it feels like to be forsaken by God!

So, He'd endured this horrendous ordeal, spiritually, emotionally and physically. He'd just actually come from heaven soul and spirit aspect of Himself, now rejoined to body. "For the joy that was set before him endured the cross." He was relieved. He was happy. He was rejoined to all that He'd missed.

Now it was time to take all these components (soul, spirit, Divine nature) with all that they encompassed (the emotions of the experience) assemble them to incarnate again into a body that knew no corruption. Nervous system, circulatory, endocrine, neurotransmitters, hormones, etc. Still needing physical restoration for the wounds left from the ordeal. Open all cylinders full throttle, flood the system and hit the switch! What do ya think happened?

There was probably also a very practical reason no human was conscious to witness the resurrection. We know of at least one angel who rolled the stone away. Two are recorded later to have been present. I'd often wondered / considered if the angel(s) who were present were theophoric figures of the Father and Spirit - seeing how of any entity who'd want to be there first hand to witness this; They'd be it!

Did He wake up "screaming"? I don't know; but I wouldn't doubt it!

So in the very least, this extremely profound experience of being raised from the dead. Overwhelming, exhilarating, likely bearing very real impact on the flesh. Who's the first human likely to the tomb. Scripture tells us someone named Cephas was the first to see Him. (Cephas is probably the cemetery caretaker or his son.) Did Cephas encounter the angel first? It's possible. But judging from Mary assuming Jesus was the cemetery caretaker (probably on account of how He was dressed); it's a fair hypotheses to say this is likely the person who provided Jesus with clothing, as well as probably food and the opportunity to bathe.

Flesh and Blood cannot enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven.1 Cor 15:50

That verse does not say flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom. When Jesus ascended to heaven 40 days post resurrection; he did so in "flesh and blood" state.

When Christ appeared unto Paul he appeared in the spirit not in the flesh.

Paul heard a voice from heaven.

Paul doesn't say it is at the time of our death that we come to dwell with Christ but at the resurrection. Paul says that when we die we sleep in the grave awaiting the first or second resurrection.

Scripture verse!

But looking at it the way you are it contradicts the rest of Paul's writings on the subject of Resurrection and when we come to dwell with Christ, it also contradicts peter, Christ, and the Apocalypse of John. So it is apparent when looking at the full picture that Paul is referring to either the Resurrection for the time he would be with Christ.

?? - If Christ has indeed secured the atonement - which was the hardest part of the whole endeavor; don't ya think recreating the cosmos at the end of time is going to be a piece of cake? The hard part is already done. And the evidence that Jesus "gets His prize" even in the here and now, is the fact that the Holy Ghost now inhabits those who are redeemed.

Daniel 9:27 calls Pentecost "the consummation". Although "the wedding feast of the lamb" is the final resurrection. Jesus has already "consummated" this relationship through the Holy Ghost.

Remember the "I go to prepare a place for you.... that where I am you will be too." The disciples understood that through the cultural lens of when one got married. Part of that agreement of the social contract of both parties entering into; was they shared a cup of wine. Then the husband would leave and go to prepare a place for his wife to live with him. Once that was established, he'd return for her.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 covers the time span between the death of John the baptist until Pentecost.

62 weeks from the death of John the baptist to the Friday before the crucifixion. vs 26

The "great tribulation" is "for one week". vs 27

7 weeks following is Pentecost. vs 25

tells us that they will be under the altar in heaven, not that they are currently. And it should be noted that they are still sleeping the sleep of the first death

As soon as John witnesses the seal being opened, they are already there. So when were they slain?

isn't the dispensationalist interpretation of "the rapture" an event that takes place before the "millennial reign" as well as at some point before the actual destruction of the cosmos? And is not this interpretation to be a "bodily rapture"?

So if the deceased believers are bodily resurrected and they are the ones "under the alter" in this passage - why does it say "souls" and not "bodies"?

Also, the passage says "they live and reign with Christ 1000 years" and that they are being slain for their witness. If they are "not there yet" when is this martyring taking place - during the "millennial reign"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seem to be arguing that demons preach a saving gospel. Is that really your intention?

Not even close. Whatever would give anyone such a notion??

I was quoting text. Do you have a different text in Acta 16?

I suspect the jailer was spending his days in the jail--because it was very clear that he was worried for his very life about anything going wrong in the prison.

You are free to suspect anything you desire. But the text is clear about what the slave girl was SHOUTING for "many days". Are you unaware of the fact that people talk?

Why wouldn't it be possible and reasonable to believe that the jailer either heard her himself or his family heard her, or one or more of his employees heard her. Which got him to thinking about "being saved".

I would also point out that historically, Philippi was a city of Roman citizens (not Greeks) from which Jews had been expelled at that time just as they had been expelled from Rome (by the same edict of Claudius). That's why there was no synagogue at Philippi when Paul visited.

Since there WERE Jews in Philippi at one time, there would have been synagogues, where "Moses and the Prophets" were read.

Explain how Acts 16:21 doesn't apply to Philippi.

"For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Their crime was that they were Jews in the city, and that is what the demon was pointing out.

I know quite well what she continued to SHOUT. But you want to minimize it.

Notice the demon said nothing about Jesus.

Why is this important? They didn't have to. All that was needed was to say that Paul had the ANSWER to how to be saved by the Most High God.

She wasn't telling anyone how to be saved. She WAS, however, telling everyone (by SHOUTING) that Paul and company were telling how to be saved.

The demon had no intention of preaching the gospel, but rather intended to disrupt what Paul and his company were really there to do.

Yes, disrupt. And I never even suggested that any demon would intent to preach the gospel. You just keep wanting to change the subject and deflect from what the very clear text says.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Not based on my feelings. It's based on what I read of your responses that are not Scripturally based. Despite the fact you think they are.

For example:



This does not explain that the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth has to do with the wrath of God.



This is not true either. Jesus is the first one raised and the only one raised from eternal destruction. Others have been raised from the dead because Jesus was raised from eternal destruction. The atonement took place both within the time table that governs the cosmos as well as in eternity. This is why Revelation says Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world".



The body of Christ that came out of the grave was the same body that went into the grave. He was only transformed to glorified state after ascending to heaven, 40 days post resurrection.

Prior to this, although raised from the dead, He was still flesh and blood. (If he'd gotten cut, he still would have bleed; because "the life is in the blood" and if there's no blood; there's no life.) Jesus did not rise from the dead as an animated corpse or "spiritual entity". He was literally and physically alive in every way. That is a fundamental belief of the Christian faith. The bodily resurrection of Christ.

In the 40 days between resurrection and ascension, Jesus still ate, drank, slept, went to the bathroom and bathed. A lot of people seem to have this idea that Jesus had "special powers" to pop in and out of places like a transporter from Star Trek. Part of the atonement had to do with delivering the material world from the curse brought upon it because of man's transgression. Jesus proved He'd overcome this too by raising the physical body. He wasn't a ghost. He wasn't a "spiritual entity". He says this to the disciples at one point. Proving he's flesh and blood alive by eating in front of them.



The context of the passages that speak of "being like the angels" has to do with marriage, not state of body. Jesus says marriage is for the children of this world. The reason being is because death now reigns. This is why we reproduce. We won't reproduce in the new heavens and new earth because there's no death. There's also application here to Jesus never getting married and producing children. But that's another subject.



There were probably very practical reasons why Jesus told Mary not to touch him at that particular time. And that was not because he "rose spiritually". If Mary had thrown her arms around Him, she would have discovered He was a solid living life form in a physical body that was just as human as hers.

His telling her: "Don't touch me I have to ascend to the Father"; I think had more to do with the pattern of how Jesus dealt with things in this life. His "default setting" was "run to Poppa". He'd done that His entire life. He lived constantly surrounded by Father and Spirit, as well as intimately acquainted with His own Divinity. He'd lived His whole life in this loving peaceful fellowship; only to endure the process of having that all torn from his existence in order to atone for sin. Not just the physical suffering, but in the very end, he was left all alone and that was absolutely devastating.

Now I know what suicidal depression feels like and that's bad; but I have no idea what it feels like to be forsaken by God!

So, He'd endured this horrendous ordeal, spiritually, emotionally and physically. He'd just actually come from heaven soul and spirit aspect of Himself, now rejoined to body. "For the joy that was set before him endured the cross." He was relieved. He was happy. He was rejoined to all that He'd missed.

Now it was time to take all these components (soul, spirit, Divine nature) with all that they encompassed (the emotions of the experience) assemble them to incarnate again into a body that knew no corruption. Nervous system, circulatory, endocrine, neurotransmitters, hormones, etc. Still needing physical restoration for the wounds left from the ordeal. Open all cylinders full throttle, flood the system and hit the switch! What do ya think happened?

There was probably also a very practical reason no human was conscious to witness the resurrection. We know of at least one angel who rolled the stone away. Two are recorded later to have been present. I'd often wondered / considered if the angel(s) who were present were theophoric figures of the Father and Spirit - seeing how of any entity who'd want to be there first hand to witness this; They'd be it!

Did He wake up "screaming"? I don't know; but I wouldn't doubt it!

So in the very least, this extremely profound experience of being raised from the dead. Overwhelming, exhilarating, likely bearing very real impact on the flesh. Who's the first human likely to the tomb. Scripture tells us someone named Cephas was the first to see Him. (Cephas is probably the cemetery caretaker or his son.) Did Cephas encounter the angel first? It's possible. But judging from Mary assuming Jesus was the cemetery caretaker (probably on account of how He was dressed); it's a fair hypotheses to say this is likely the person who provided Jesus with clothing, as well as probably food and the opportunity to bathe.



That verse does not say flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom. When Jesus ascended to heaven 40 days post resurrection; he did so in "flesh and blood" state.



Paul heard a voice from heaven.



Scripture verse!



?? - If Christ has indeed secured the atonement - which was the hardest part of the whole endeavor; don't ya think recreating the cosmos at the end of time is going to be a piece of cake? The hard part is already done. And the evidence that Jesus "gets His prize" even in the here and now, is the fact that the Holy Ghost now inhabits those who are redeemed.

Daniel 9:27 calls Pentecost "the consummation". Although "the wedding feast of the lamb" is the final resurrection. Jesus has already "consummated" this relationship through the Holy Ghost.

Remember the "I go to prepare a place for you.... that where I am you will be too." The disciples understood that through the cultural lens of when one got married. Part of that agreement of the social contract of both parties entering into; was they shared a cup of wine. Then the husband would leave and go to prepare a place for his wife to live with him. Once that was established, he'd return for her.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 covers the time span between the death of John the baptist until Pentecost.

62 weeks from the death of John the baptist to the Friday before the crucifixion. vs 26

The "great tribulation" is "for one week". vs 27

7 weeks following is Pentecost. vs 25



As soon as John witnesses the seal being opened, they are already there. So when were they slain?

isn't the dispensationalist interpretation of "the rapture" an event that takes place before the "millennial reign" as well as at some point before the actual destruction of the cosmos? And is not this interpretation to be a "bodily rapture"?

So if the deceased believers are bodily resurrected and they are the ones "under the alter" in this passage - why does it say "souls" and not "bodies"?

Also, the passage says "they live and reign with Christ 1000 years" and that they are being slain for their witness. If they are "not there yet" when is this martyring taking place - during the "millennial reign"?

Brother, it I have tried reasoning with you from scripture but you refuse to see the truth. I am sorry that I could not help you to see the truth and light of God's word. I pray the Lord guides you to the true understanding of his Gospel and doctrine.

May God bless and guide you.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Brother, it I have tried reasoning with you from scripture but you refuse to see the truth. I am sorry that I could not help you to see the truth and light of God's word. I pray the Lord guides you to the true understanding of his Gospel and doctrine.

May God bless and guide you.

Have a nice day.

 

[Oldmantook]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Your assumption is incorrect. When faced with a statement, one either believes the statement or doesn't believe the statement. In the case of not comprehending the statement, then they can't believe what they don't comprehend.

If you are correct, then God did an extremely poor job of communicating how to be saved.

Do you not realize just how absurd that is?

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Each of these 3 verses states both the object and goal of "saving faith", or how to be saved.

And I think how to be saved IS a very BIG DEAL. Sorry you seem not to.


Re-read the context. There is nothing about being obedient. But nice try.

He understood who Jesus was; the Messiah, the hope of Israel. He knew He was going to His kingdom and wanted to be remembered there, demonstrating his trust in the Messiah.


Yes it does. Your claim to the contrary doesn't make it so. Just count these verses and then show me the ones that add anything beyond belief:

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


You've got to ask yourself: what did they believe, actually? That "God is One", or monotheism, which was unique to the Jews of that time.

Now, is belief in monotheism saving faith? Of course not. If so, then every OT JEW was saved, which is absurd.


No, Scripture teaches belief that should be demonstrated by obedience.

Matt 3:8, Luke 3:8


No, to believe is to trust. Look it up in any lexicon.


The key to saving faith is trust, which is salvation by grace. AFTER that, the saved believer is commanded to be obedient, holy and blameless.

No comprendo. Beause you are in error.

As I wrote earlier, your are unlearned when it comes to salvation. Why is that? You are to take into consideration the whole of Scripture when forming doctrine; not just some pet texts. Since you read Scripture with the glasses of bias on, I give you a short introduction to a few verses which state the opposite of what you imagine to be true.

You wrote that "effort" is not required since belief does not require effort as if only belief is the sole criteria for salvation. That would be news to the Apostle Paul. But I suppose you fancy yourself as knowing better than the Apostle Paul as to what the gospel message entails?

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. Acts 26:20
Although belief is one requirement for salvation, no where in this verse is belief mentioned. Instead Paul chose to focus on repentance and deeds that demonstrate repentance. The Apostle Paul preached a gospel message that included effort because deeds that demonstrate repentance REQUIRE EFFORT.

You claim that no scripture states that belief is demonstrated by obedience? Have you managed to read the book of John? 3:36 states:
The one believing in the Son has eternal life. But the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him”.
In this one verse, we see that belief in the former clause is equated with disobedience in the later clause. A person must believe and also obey for eternal life. Like I wrote earlier, two sides of the same coin.

Now that I've given you a brief primer on soteriological matters, you may want to study further on your own. Iron sharpens iron.

 

[The Righterzpen]

His statement was about paying the penalty for the sins of the world. We know He went to Hades after He died.

Why do people end up in Hades to begin with?

Is it not a "holding place" for those who are condemned awaiting their "sentence"?

Who is the judge that will dole out that sentence? (God.)

So, if Jesus states "it is finished" in relation to the atonement (paying for sin - in which Hades is a "holding cell" to that end). Why would Jesus go to Hades after the atonement was complete? That makes no logical sense. He had to have been there as part of the process of the atonement!

1 Pete 3:19 - After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

Proof positive that after His death, and then being made alive, He went to Tartarus and preached to imprisoned spirits.

LOL - Now look at the translation you have here. It's not exactly accurate, but for arguments sake; I will used this translation.

"After being made alive, he went......" Eeeehhh?? After being "made alive" would be post resurrection. Ya mean Jesus went to Hades AFTER He rose from the dead? How'd that happen?

You also misunderstand why people will be cast into the lake of fire. Don't you know that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world?

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Couple of problems with the notion of Jesus paying for the sin of every single human being.

1. Most of humanity ends up under judgement. "broad is the path that leads to destruction".

2. Judicially speaking, 2 people paying for the sin of one is not justice.

3. Jesus pay for my sin. I pay for my sin. Part of what Jesus did was ineffectual!

4. If Jesus paid for one of my sins, He paid for all of my sins; including the sin of "unbelief" - Which has suddenly become the new "blasphemy against the Spirit" in modern evangelical circles.

5. Jesus said "All the Father gives to me will come and I will lose nothing...." If Jesus paid for my sin and I'm lost than Jesus is a liar!

1 John 2:2 - Let's correctly understand what that is actually saying.

Jesus is the purchaser for microwave ovens, and not only for our microwaves, but for microwaves of the whole world.

If you want a microwave ask Jesus, he's the microwave buyer. Now does this mean if you ask him to buy you a microwave, that he's going to buy you every microwave in the store? Ehhh.... no - that's not practical. If you don't want a microwave; does this mean Jesus is going to buy you one anyways? Ehh... no - I'd be mad at Jesus if he bought me a microwave and I didn't want one. Does this mean that Jesus buys every single microwave that was ever made in the entire world? Ehhh... no, because he's only buying microwaves for people who want them.

Propitiation means payment. One that provides the payment. One who is the buyer. Payment isn't made for a product that's not wanted, or more product than one needs.

That one verse does not support your view.

I didn't give just one verse to support my view. I gave a whole slew of them. You want 'em?

I never said it did.

No you answered on an answer that was addressed to someone else. And you just ended up with part of their answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I wrote earlier, your are unlearned when it comes to salvation.

Your quite incorrect opinion of what understand is noted.

Why is that?

Well, it isn't.

You are to take into consideration the whole of Scripture when forming doctrine; not just some pet texts. Since you read Scripture with the glasses of bias on, I give you a short introduction to a few verses which state the opposite of what you imagine to be true.

goody, goody. Can't wait for the tutorial.

You wrote that "effort" is not required since belief does not require effort as if only belief is the sole criteria for salvation. That would be news to the Apostle Paul. But I suppose you fancy yourself as knowing better than the Apostle Paul as to what the gospel message entails?

Quite the contrary. Paul himself gave the SAME ANSWER that I would have to the jailer's question. And Paul didn't include any "effort" in his answer.

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. Acts 26:20
Although belief is one requirement for salvation, no where in this verse is belief mentioned. Instead Paul chose to focus on repentance and deeds that demonstrate repentance.

And you somehow equate this with evangelism?

The Apostle Paul preached a gospel message that included effort because deeds that demonstrate repentance REQUIRE EFFORT.

Just provide any verse that directly links effort, or deeds as a requirement for salvation.

In the meantime, I'll just share some verses from Paul that totally REFUTES your theories.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

iow, works are excluded from salvation. Salvation is by grace, not by works.

You claim that no scripture states that belief is demonstrated by obedience? Have you managed to read the book of John? 3:36 states:
The one believing in the Son has eternal life. But the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him”.
In this one verse, we see that belief in the former clause is equated with disobedience in the later clause.

Let's see what the Greek word for "disobeying" means:

NT:544 apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o); from NT:545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):
KJV - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, there it is. The Greek word means to DISBELIEVE.

A person must believe and also obey for eternal life.

I hope you're not counting on your very poor translation of John 3:36 for entrance into heaven.

Here's what the Bible says about how to have eternal life:
Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, this is what the Bible says about how to have salvation:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Now, read each verse and then count the ones that mentions effort, deeds, works, etc for either salvation or eternal life.

Now that I've given you a brief primer on soteriological matters, you may want to study further on your own. Iron sharpens iron.

Yeah, quite the tutorial.

Now, read the verses and count how many mention anything about deeds, works, effort in gaining salvation/eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do people end up in Hades to begin with?

It's where the souls of the unsaved are kept until The Judgment.

Is it not a "holding place" for those who are condemned awaiting their "sentence"?

It is since Jesus Christ resurrected.

So, if Jesus states "it is finished" in relation to the atonement (paying for sin - in which Hades is a "holding cell" to that end). Why would Jesus go to Hades after the atonement was complete?

The Bible tells us: "through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison"
1 Peter 3:19

So we know why He went there.

That makes no logical sense. He had to have been there as part of the process of the atonement!

OK, let's apply this bit of this "logic" another way. Were you at the cross WHEN Christ atoned for all of your sins? Of course not.

"After being made alive, he went......" Eeeehhh?? After being "made alive" would be post resurrection. Ya mean Jesus went to Hades AFTER He rose from the dead? How'd that happen?

Are you serious? He "rose from the dead" the moment His dead physical body was changed and left the tomb. Maybe you can tell us the time that occurred. Or better, let's just believe Scripture that indicates that by the time Mary reached the tomb, His body had aready left. Why? Because His body had been resurrected. And before He came back to the surface of the planet, He "preached to the spirits in prison".

Couple of problems with the notion of Jesus paying for the sin of every single human being.

1. Most of humanity ends up under judgement. "broad is the path that leads to destruction".

Not a problem at all.

2. Judicially speaking, 2 people paying for the sin of one is not justice.

Your premise is in error. Only 1 person paid for the sins of the world.

3. Jesus pay for my sin. I pay for my sin. Part of what Jesus did was ineffectual!

More erroneous premise. You don't pay for your sin. Jesus did. Just read Heb 7-10 and count the number of times the phrase "once for all" is used in conjunction with His sacrifice.

Oh, and please believe 1 John 2:2. Don't take my word for it.

4. If Jesus paid for one of my sins, He paid for all of my sins; including the sin of "unbelief" - Which has suddenly become the new "blasphemy against the Spirit" in modern evangelical circles.

More erroneous premise. No one goes to the lake for unbelief. They go there for not possessing eternal life. Rev 20:15.

5. Jesus said "All the Father gives to me will come and I will lose nothing...." If Jesus paid for my sin and I'm lost than Jesus is a liar!

You really misunderstand a lot of Scripture. What you seem to miss is that "all the Father gives to me" refers, not to those He died for, but those who will believe in Him.

1 John 2:2 - Let's correctly understand what that is actually saying.

Be my guest.

Jesus is the purchaser for microwave ovens, and not only for our microwaves, but for microwaves of the whole world.

Well, you blew that one! You've equated people with microwave ovens.

I'm going to make this easy for you to grasp. I'm going to color code the verse.

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The red words refer to believers (our sins).

The blue words refer to unbelievers (whole world).

You're welcome!

Propitiation means payment. One that provides the payment.

I recommend that you consult with a lexicon.

 

[Oldmantook]

Your quite incorrect opinion of what understand is noted.


Well, it isn't.


goody, goody. Can't wait for the tutorial.


Quite the contrary. Paul himself gave the SAME ANSWER that I would have to the jailer's question. And Paul didn't include any "effort" in his answer.


And you somehow equate this with evangelism?


Just provide any verse that directly links effort, or deeds as a requirement for salvation.

In the meantime, I'll just share some verses from Paul that totally REFUTES your theories.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

iow, works are excluded from salvation. Salvation is by grace, not by works.


Let's see what the Greek word for "disobeying" means:

NT:544 apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o); from NT:545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):
KJV - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, there it is. The Greek word means to DISBELIEVE.


I hope you're not counting on your very poor translation of John 3:36 for entrance into heaven.

Here's what the Bible says about how to have eternal life:
Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, this is what the Bible says about how to have salvation:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Now, read each verse and then count the ones that mentions effort, deeds, works, etc for either salvation or eternal life.


Yeah, quite the tutorial.

Now, read the verses and count how many mention anything about deeds, works, effort in gaining salvation/eternal life.

Oh my. You go to great lengths but still demonstrate much misunderstanding. I cited Acts 26:20 which Paul himself describes the message he preached which is evangelism and yet you manage to somehow ignore what he stated in order to cling to your belief. Simply put, deeds that demonstrate repentance do require individual effort. That should be obvious to you but you choose to eschew it - which is of course your prerogative.

And as far John 3:36 goes, I suggest you study the Greek instead of just simply citing a concordance definition thereby just focusing on what is convenient for you to believe so as to promote your eisegesis of this verse.
The Greek word apeitheo is a compound word. The prefix a means "not" and the verb peitho means "to obey" when used in the active voice or "to be persuaded" when used in the passive voice. In Jn 3:36 apeitheo is in the active present tense, so "disobeying" would be the correct literal translation instead of "disbelieve" as you assert. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the Greek.

 

[Jair Crawford]

Yikes. This really escalated quickly.

I’m not talking about what paradise is or isn’t in the context. I’m talking about Salvation and doctrine.

 

[Saint Steven]

Rather, it seems you love to misunderstand a lot.

If you don't understand what is required in order to receive eternal life, you cannot lead anyone to saving faith in Jesus Christ.

You just shot yourself in the foot.

That's my point. The doctrine is for the one leading someone to Christ, not for the one coming to Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

I said:
"Salvation isn't complicated, which is the subject that I'm addressing."

I'll re-state how to be saved.

One must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, (Deity), who died on a cross for the sins of mankind, and gives eternal life to whever believes in Him for it.

If this is too complicated for you, I suggest you have a significant problem.

Please explain the "simplified way" to have salvation.

There you go, overcomplicating things again.
Is the doctrine of the deity of Christ necessary for salvation? (nope)
You are getting closer though. I will commend you for trying.
I know it is not easy for you. (you prefer complicating things)

 

[Saint Steven]

I guess you aren't aware of what lots of little children believe in regarding getting Christmas presents. hint: Sant Claus


Simple. Object and goal.


I'm sorry you aren't aware of what faith requires, regardless of the kind.


How about "non-saving faith".

Such as:

Believing in Santa Claus for eternal life.

Believing in Santa Claus for Christmas presents.

Believing in the tooth fairy for money.

Need I continue?

Oh, how about these:

Believing in Christ for more money.

Believing in Christ for a better job.

Believing in Christ for a bigger house.

What's wrong with "Believing in Christ for a better job"?

 

[Saint Steven]

Where have I questioned your salvation?

Let's not be so dramatic.

But anyone who doesn't understand how to be saved can't be saved.

Please explain how someone who doesn't understand what is required to be saved can be saved.

Explain why someone needs to follow your complicated formulas to be saved.