Doctrines of Devils?

[Phantasman]

I agree that the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church, because Church is all true believers in Christ.

What I reject, for many reasons, (some of which I listed in my previous post), is that the Catholic Church alone is the one true Church.

I believe and am firmly convinced that God has had, has now, and always will have His faithful remnant throughout the world.

The Holy Spirit doesn't reside in inanimate objects or ideologies. She resides in the minds of man and woman, no matter the place. It is spirit as we are spirit. The physical (flesh) means nothing to her.

 

[Robert76]

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained." 1 Timothy 4:1-6

If the Bible says that forbidding to marry and commanding that people "abstain" from meats are "doctrines of devils", why do so many Christians accept these restrictions (often commanded and imposed by church leadership) as actually from God Himself?

Thoughts?

There have been so many great replies to this already. My own thoughts are that some may forbid to marry as a form of a works based thinking toward salvation, thinking that the more "holy" they live, the better standing they'll have with God. This is of course not Biblical, "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..." (Romans 3:23 ESV). For the same reason, some may also abstain from meats. Anymore, it can almost seem cliche to bring up "works" as the everyday misconception around salvation, but it bears repeating that in life and in our society almost everything requires work, right? This becomes ingrained at an early age... you want a cookie, you need to behave, you want good grades, you need to study hard, you want a good job, house, cars, etc... then you need to work hard and apply yourself - the list goes on. So it tends to really 'flip our lids' a bit when we're told that God offers salvation to us as a free gift, and all we have to do is accept it

 

[amariselle]

The Holy Spirit doesn't reside in inanimate objects or ideologies. She resides in the minds of man and woman, no matter the place. It is spirit as we are spirit. The physical (flesh) means nothing to her.

"She"?

 

[amariselle]

There have been so many great replies to this already. My own thoughts are that some may forbid to marry as a form of a works based thinking toward salvation, thinking that the more "holy" they live, the better standing they'll have with God. This is of course not Biblical, "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..." (Romans 3:23 ESV). For the same reason, some may also abstain from meats. Anymore, it can almost seem cliche to bring up "works" as the everyday misconception around salvation, but it bears repeating that in life and in our society almost everything requires work, right? This becomes ingrained at an early age... you want a cookie, you need to behave, you want good grades, you need to study hard, you want a good job, house, cars, etc... then you need to work hard and apply yourself - the list goes on. So it tends to really 'flip our lids' a bit when we're told that God offers salvation to us as a free gift, and all we have to do is accept it

Well said, I've thought about this many times myself.

And yet....a gift is a gift, (which we know from Scripture salvation is), and gifts cannot be earned or paid for or they are no longer gifts.

 

[amariselle]

The reason for the post was that the church is not the theology (religion), but the heart of the individual (Ekklesia). You can follow any religion you want that teaches of Jesus. And you are judged individually by that following (seeking the kingdom). Saying and following the Catholic tenet guarantee's nothing. Same with any other Christian religion.

It's not about a "religion that teaches Jesus", it's about turning to Him in faith and believing the Gospel.

And it's also so very important we don't chase after every wind of doctrine, or fail to contend for "the faith once delievered to the saints." As we know there is much deception in the world, as Jesus warned.

 

[Monk Brendan]

What stands out to me, is that according to Scripture, forbidding marriage for people (whether it's everyone or just clergy) is not of God.

Certainly, from a moral standpoint, when such has been forced on people, regardless of how sacred a duty it may seem, it has led to so much immorality and abuse.

This is why I believe that the decision not to marry should ultimately come from a personal conviction given by God, Who will then grant that person the ability to walk the path He has called them to, and not from demands, regulations and rules imposed on an individual by nature of his or her office or position. The fruit of such imposition has been quite clear.

You are still not understanding me. In the RC Church, if someone feels CALLED of God to become a priest, there is a long time, six-seven years that he (and his spiritual advisors) have in front of them before ordination.

If, at any time in those 6-7 years, the seminarian decides that he really does have a call from God, and he must make up his mind that he will be celibate. It is not IMPOSED on him from outside. It is a discipline, a voluntary step that he takes. No one is forcing him to become a priest. Even after ordination, some priests decide they can't do this any more. They can go to their bishop and request a leave of absence to further discern if this is his life. If, at the end of that time, he feels he has made a mistake, his bishop can can give him a dispensation to live as laity.

No one is dragged, kicking and screaming to the feet of a bishop to be ordained. It is totally voluntary. Going through college and getting all the degrees he needs is still NO guarantee that the bishop will ordain him. That just means he has the training. No one knows for sure that he has a vocation to the priesthood until such time as the bishop calls his name and asks him to be brought forward to be ordained.

And just to let you know, I know a couple of priests that have been deposed. They both married, and as I recall, one is living a happy life, and the other one committed suicide, mourning what he had done. I also know of a priest that left the church, married a nun, and their marriage fell apart. He is a sad, sad man.

You (and a lot of other people on these fora) seem to think that the Catholic Church lands on people with both feet, and drives them with a whip into all these dogma and can't and must do certain things. Forget it! The Roman Catholic Church is just as much a voluntary organization as the church you go to. If you don't want to follow the rules, fine. I'm not going to stop you. (Oh I will, if your a friend, speak to you, and try to lead you back into the church, but that is a personal thing.) If someone feels that God is calling him to leave the church because he will find the truth elsewhere, then go. Don't let the door hit your back on the way out.

Just to let you know, in the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, married men can be ordained to the priesthood. I know several, including Fr. Peter. He is an excellent priest in all ways. While I don't know any personally, after a married man is ordained, there are some cases where the marriage falls apart, and they get divorced. And no, the divorce has nothing to do with his priestly function.

 

[amariselle]

You are still not understanding me. In the RC Church, if someone feels CALLED of God to become a priest, there is a long time, six-seven years that he (and his spiritual advisors) have in front of them before ordination.

If, at any time in those 6-7 years, the seminarian decides that he really does have a call from God, and he must make up his mind that he will be celibate. It is not IMPOSED on him from outside. It is a discipline, a voluntary step that he takes. No one is forcing him to become a priest. Even after ordination, some priests decide they can't do this any more. They can go to their bishop and request a leave of absence to further discern if this is his life. If, at the end of that time, he feels he has made a mistake, his bishop can can give him a dispensation to live as laity.

No one is dragged, kicking and screaming to the feet of a bishop to be ordained. It is totally voluntary. Going through college and getting all the degrees he needs is still NO guarantee that the bishop will ordain him. That just means he has the training. No one knows for sure that he has a vocation to the priesthood until such time as the bishop calls his name and asks him to be brought forward to be ordained.

And just to let you know, I know a couple of priests that have been deposed. They both married, and as I recall, one is living a happy life, and the other one committed suicide, mourning what he had done. I also know of a priest that left the church, married a nun, and their marriage fell apart. He is a sad, sad man.

You (and a lot of other people on these fora) seem to think that the Catholic Church lands on people with both feet, and drives them with a whip into all these dogma and can't and must do certain things. Forget it! The Roman Catholic Church is just as much a voluntary organization as the church you go to. If you don't want to follow the rules, fine. I'm not going to stop you. (Oh I will, if your a friend, speak to you, and try to lead you back into the church, but that is a personal thing.) If someone feels that God is calling him to leave the church because he will find the truth elsewhere, then go. Don't let the door hit your back on the way out.

Just to let you know, in the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, married men can be ordained to the priesthood. I know several, including Fr. Peter. He is an excellent priest in all ways. While I don't know any personally, after a married man is ordained, there are some cases where the marriage falls apart, and they get divorced. And no, the divorce has nothing to do with his priestly function.

Contrary to what you believe I think, I know full well that no one is "dragged kicking and screaming to the feet of the bishop."

My objection is not that anyone is forced to become a priest, monk, nun etc. but that celibacy is part of the job description at all.

Scripture definitely teaches that the forbidding of marriage should not be a pre-requisite of being in church leadership.

You mentioned the guilt that some have felt in regards to leaving the priesthood/being "deposed", unfortunately I think that has all too often been the case. There's a reason Scripture warns about this. Requiring that someone not marry as a part of their office does not line up with the Bible.

The damage such has done (in the Catholic Church in particular) is hardly unknown to the world.

 

[Monk Brendan]

James led the church and instructed the disciples. The books of John and Paul, as well as Lukes Gospel follow perfectly with the non Canon Gospels. Matthews Gospel was used heavily by the converted Jews, as it uses OT truths (the parts that exist) to show them the "real truth".

Okay, let's try this. Why are you quoting non-Scriptural, non-canonical books? Are you not Sola Scriptura? How can claim to be Sola Scriptura and still quote non canonical books?

Another mistake by Orthodoxy. Luke wasn't there.

How many people were in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost? My Bible says in Acts 1:15 “And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)” Now there is no list of the names of the people there, is there? (That is, in Scripture) How do you know that Luke was NOT there. show me one place where the Bible--not the non-canonical books, just the Bible--says that Luke was NOT THERE

Just as a question. Don't you realize that Luke WROTE the book of Acts?

At that point, one can see that the Catholics based their rewards and punishments as through physical ignorance. Really. Digging up a body 30 years later to burn it? Spiritually ignorant.

I guess things have just rolled along with nothing coming against you, ever. You've never been dumped, you've never lost your temper at anyone. You haven't even torn up a photo of someone you know that you stopped loving, Right?

I have known people that when frustrated, throw and break things. Some of those people are even Calvinists. Does that mean that they have lost their salvation, or were never really saved? You and I both know better. Temper tantrums happen to everbody.

Well, this is Pope Martin having a bad day. I've read about popes who had former popes dug up, dressed in full vestments, sat in a chair so that everyone could see what was going on, and read excommunications over the dead body, then had it burned and the ashes sprinkled on the Tiber.

I've never said that every pope was a lovely man. Some were really rotten guys. But you must remember that the Pope is not infallible, unless, standing in the Seat of Peter, he speaks on matters of faith and morals, with the agreement of the bishops of the Church. He is just as apt to make a mistake in math as the next guy.

BTW, you call yourself a Christian Seeker, and yet you are trying to lecture ME on Christianity. That doesn't work. Not here, not anyplace. Once you have lived MY life, walked in my shoes for a couple of decades, then, maybe, you are allowed to criticize my walk with Christ.

 

[Monk Brendan]

My objection is not that anyone is forced to become a priest, monk, nun etc. but that celibacy is part of the job description at all.

Where are you working? Do you have a uniform code? Do you have to comport yourself in a certain way? Have you had to learn a specialized vocabulary for your job. Were you dragged into the job? Have you been forced to work there in a state of slavery, not owning anything, not being able, even to fall in love? I have lived that life. Then I started cooperating with Christ, and all that crap continued for another two decades.

I see that you're married. That means that you had the freedom to fall in love. I didn't! At least until such time as I fell in love with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I fell in love with the monastic life, and I'm glad I did. Yes, I have had to put up with some inconveniences. Celibacy, at my age, is an inconvenience, and not much more than that. I have other problems that are much more important.

And because you're not a Catholic, what does it matter to you? Any monk, nun, priest or bishop that I have know accepted these strictures as part of the job description. If you can't handle it, don't become Catholic, and you won't have to worry about it, will you.

Again, you are thinking that all of these things are forced on us from above. They are not. They are freely accepted by the priests, bishops. monks, nun, and so on. And if some guy is having problems with those DISCIPLINES, I don't have to worry about it. That is between him and God!

 

[amariselle]

Where are you working? Do you have a uniform code? Do you have to comport yourself in a certain way? Have you had to learn a specialized vocabulary for your job. Were you dragged into the job? Have you been forced to work there in a state of slavery, not owning anything, not being able, even to fall in love? I have lived that life. Then I started cooperating with Christ, and all that crap continued for another two decades.

I see that you're married. That means that you had the freedom to fall in love. I didn't! At least until such time as I fell in love with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I fell in love with the monastic life, and I'm glad I did. Yes, I have had to put up with some inconveniences. Celibacy, at my age, is an inconvenience, and not much more than that. I have other problems that are much more important.

And because you're not a Catholic, what does it matter to you? Any monk, nun, priest or bishop that I have know accepted these strictures as part of the job description. If you can't handle it, don't become Catholic, and you won't have to worry about it, will you.

Again, you are thinking that all of these things are forced on us from above. They are not. They are freely accepted by the priests, bishops. monks, nun, and so on. And if some guy is having problems with those DISCIPLINES, I don't have to worry about it. That is between him and God!

Why does it matter to me?

Because I care about people.

Because I see what the forbidding of marriage has done. Perhaps you can and have accepted it and have been truly given the strength from God to walk that path, but clearly not all have.

It has become quite obvious even in modern times what such prohibitions have led to for so many, and if one does careful research, it will become very clear to them in no time at all that forbidding marriage has in fact placed an unbearable (and unbiblical) burden on people that most cannot bear.

Look, just because you chose the monastic life and "fell in love with it", does not mean that others have not been burdened in their life by such religious demands.

And just because I'm married doesn't mean it doesn't matter to me. I think all Christians need to care about one another, married or not.

Also, as I think I mentioned to you the other day, I do in fact have a personal interest (because of my mother's side of the family) in regards to the Catholic Church.

Anyway, we are brothers and sisters in Christ and as such we absolutely should care when we see people struggling under burdens, problems in the Church etc.

 

[Monk Brendan]

There have been so many great replies to this already. My own thoughts are that some may forbid to marry as a form of a works based thinking toward salvation, thinking that the more "holy" they live, the better standing they'll have with God. This is of course not Biblical, "...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..." (Romans 3:23 ESV).

Why is it the default position of most Protestants that Catholics are trying to "WORK" their way to heaven? I'm not. None of the people I know are. They all love Jesus, and out of their love, abundant works flow.

 

[Monk Brendan]

It has become quite obvious even in modern times what such prohibitions have led to for so many, and if one does careful research, it will become very clear to them in no time at all that forbidding marriage has in fact placed an unbearable (and unbiblical) burden on people that most cannot bear.

Give me some specifics, please. Whose life has become am unbearable burden because of the restrictions that you say have been. Also, please give me the raw material of the "research" that you have done. Finally, what type of damage has been done.

If, by any chance, you are trying to pin the pedophilia problem upon lack of marriage, you are SADLY mistaken. Pedophilia is a problem that happens with married and unmarried alike, and it as sinful as you are trying to make the forbidding to marriage to be. Remember what St. Paul said,
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. [i.e. unmarried and celibate] But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. I Cor 7:1-9 KJV

 

[Monk Brendan]

What stands out to me, is that according to Scripture, forbidding marriage for people (whether it's everyone or just clergy) is not of God.

Exactly where is that in the Bible, Book, Chapter and Verse, please.

 

[Phantasman]

"She"?

Are you a patriarch?

The Holy Spirit is the nurturer. The feminine of the Father is wisdom. Women nurture. Eve's wisdom saved us. Patriarchy is what will destroy us.

 

[amariselle]

Are you a patriarch?

The Holy Spirit is the nurturer. The feminine of the Father is wisdom. Women nurture. Eve's wisdom saved us. Patriarchy is what will destroy us.

The Holy Spirit is always referred to as "He" in Scripture.

I have absolutely no idea what strange ideology you have become entangled in. It does sound like some form of goddess worship/the divine feminin.

Scary (and completely contrary to Scripture) also that you would say "Eve's wisdom saved us." It was Eve who was directly tempted by the serpent in the garden and gave the fruit to her husband Adam.

As I said, I do not know what kinds of ideology you're involved in, but you're statements above are very worrisome.

 

[amariselle]

Exactly where is that in the Bible, Book, Chapter and Verse, please.

The verses that are the subject of this entire thread.

 

[amariselle]

Give me some specifics, please. Whose life has become am unbearable burden because of the restrictions that you say have been. Also, please give me the raw material of the "research" that you have done. Finally, what type of damage has been done.

If, by any chance, you are trying to pin the pedophilia problem upon lack of marriage, you are SADLY mistaken. Pedophilia is a problem that happens with married and unmarried alike, and it as sinful as you are trying to make the forbidding to marriage to be.

Of course pedophilia is a problem that happens with unmarried and married alike, as does adultery and sex outside of marriage.

Unfortunately, there is no other organization that has throughout history struggled with such problems to such a staggering extent as what has occurred in the Catholic Church. (And no, I am not speaking only of pedophilia, but also of affairs and children born outside of marriage because clergy could not remain celibate as they were required to do).

So, I cannot agree with you that it has nothing to do with forbidding marriage.

The truth is that most people cannot bear such demands. When these demands become part of being faithful to God, then that so often leads to guilt and the belief that ones desires and failures have therefore made them unfaithful to God. How hard it must be for some to leave the clergy and their vows when they no doubt believe they are turning their backs on God?

Remember what St. Paul said,
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. [i.e. unmarried and celibate] But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. I Cor 7:1-9 KJV

Exactly. Marriage was never forbidden. Not for anyone. It was never a requirement even for elders. Placing religious demands on people is in fact something Jesus repeatedly condemned.

 

[Goatee]

It's amazing how many people have no clue about the CC. They just see 'stuff' on the Internet, news or YouTube even and believe all the rubbish that is spouted.

Being Celibate is part of the 'job description' when applying to be a Catholic priest. It's also giving your life to God. Different 'faiths' have different 'rules' / 'joining criteria'.

 

[amariselle]

It's amazing how many people have no clue about the CC. They just see 'stuff' on the Internet, news or YouTube even and believe all the rubbish that is spouted.

Being Celibate is part of the 'job description' when applying to be a Catholic priest. It's also giving your life to God. Different 'faiths' have different 'rules' / 'joining criteria'.

If that accusation of having "no clue" about the CC is directed at me, you are entirely incorrect.

Also, if you think that I just see "stuff" on the Internet, news or YouTube and just automatically believe "all the rubbish that's spouted", you are also incorrect.

I am not an ignorant person. I know full well (as I have no doubt you do as well) that there are many well documented and indefensible things of a sexual nature that have happened in the Catholic Church. Most of which the Church has done their dead level best to deny and/or conviently sweep under the rug.

Countless people have been indescribably hurt and even had their lives destroyed by such things. It makes a mockery of their pain to even suggest that this abuse is "rubbish."

As I said before, surely we can do better than that as brothers and sisters in Christ?

 

[amariselle]

Despite my efforts to clarify that this is not a thread about Catholicism in particular, it has turned into one.

I personally am finished addressing posts that are specifically about the Catholic Church. (Which some chose to focus on and bring up in this thread).

I've addressed that specific subject repeatedly now. Although I am not surprised this came up, it is not the intended purpose or point of this thread.