Doctrine of Demons Christians believe in?

[FireDragon76]

Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith. While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 the we can earn our justification as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that one doers of the law will be justified, so there must be reasons why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn our salvation, such as faith insofar as Paul said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed through living in obedience to God's law.

Are you overlooking the fact Luther believed in an Augustinian notion of Original Sin, that, according to the 95 Theses, all our works amount to mortal sins? Obedience in this life is always imperfect, according to both Lutheran and Reformed theology.

 

[timewerx]

God uses the devil, but he warns us about him.

I guess you mean it is sounds bad to rely on the human's 'Godly work' for salvation. With that I agree.

I agree. That is monstrous. There aren't enough bad words to describe that. "May it never be!" We mustn't "sin that grace may abound."

I'm glad I don't know anybody who teaches that.

Of course he would love that! Not only does it demonstrate that the person doing that is deceived, but the person doing that is demonstrating that he isn't even saved. The Holy Spirit dwells within the regenerate redeemed. He will not let them continue in serving the Devil.

There are teachings in our religion that may seem harmless.

But if you analyze it carefully, look at it at different 'wavelengths' like how astronomers study our night skies, in both the visible and the invisible wavelengths of 'light', then you are bound to see hidden details. Hidden details that may go against your analysis in the visible wavelengths.

I'm talking about underlying messages. You won't begin to see until you understand the sharp distinction between good and evil like the visible and invisible light, the black and white. If it doesn't reveal itself against a 'white background' then use a 'black background'.

If you're not sure what makes God happy, then think what makes the Devil happy and use that 'filter' to study Christian teachings, dogmas, creeds, theology, etc.

I'd like to make it clear about about our worldly jobs and why I don't advise quitting your job (unless the Lord told you so), including being just a simple clerk in an honest company and not breaking any rules, loved by everyone in the office. Even if you and your company is totally honest and upright, most of the money it makes still ends up in the hands of those who will use it for evil or unrighteous cause. Simply because we live in an evil world whose god is the devil, this is all written in the Bible.

The vast majority of the money in the world goes in the wrong hands. This is why you cannot love both God and money. It's exactly the same as working for God or working for the devil. No gray areas here if you know how most of the money in the world is used.

This is why Jesus referred to money as "unrighteous wealth". He didn't cared if you're an honest worker working for an honest employer. It doesn't matter.

But Jesus taught us the good ways to use that unrighteous wealth. This is why I'm not telling anyone to quit their jobs. I won't discuss that here, anyone can find it in the Bible. It's not about how honest your employers are or about how honest you are at work, but where you invest that income makes you either a worker for God or a worker for the devil. (But I'll probably drop a hint, invest money to the poor, not on the rich and other worldly things).

Why we end up talking about money because the love of money really is the root of all evil and the fact it has deeply infiltrated all aspects of life in this corrupt world. And because Jesus have demonstrated a few times how you use money is a test whether you are truly saved or not. No gray areas between love of God and love of money. If you would deny / twist / misinterpret a teaching of the Lord or disobey to bless your worldly desires then clearly it is money you love and actually hate God (you cannot love both but will love one and hate the other).

"In order to be saved, you must work for the devil"

The most potent false teaching in the world but many Christians don't see it and fall victim to the trap because it is presented under this guise:

"In order to demonstrate your faith in God's Saving Grace, don't do good works"

But if you don't do good works then you are working for the devil because of lack a gray area there, we all work for something but it's only between two things, we either work for God or the devil. Some may way 'I'm only working for myself' But if you are working for yourself then you are also working for the devil because that highlights the fact, you love yourself more than God.

And by now, it is obvious we can only Love or Hate God. No gray areas there. But if our works declare we hate God. Can someone who hates God be truly saved even if he or she accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior?

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are teachings in our religion that may seem harmless.

But if you analyze it carefully, look at it at different 'wavelengths' like how astronomers study our night skies, in both the visible and the invisible wavelengths of 'light', then you are bound to see hidden details. Hidden details that may go against your analysis in the visible wavelengths.

I'm talking about underlying messages. You won't begin to see until you understand the sharp distinction between good and evil like the visible and invisible light, the black and white. If it doesn't reveal itself against a 'white background' then use a 'black background'.

If you're not sure what makes God happy, then think what makes the Devil happy and use that 'filter' to study Christian teachings, dogmas, creeds, theology, etc.

I'd like to make it clear about about our worldly jobs and why I don't advise quitting your job (unless the Lord told you so), including being just a simple clerk in an honest company and not breaking any rules, loved by everyone in the office. Even if you and your company is totally honest and upright, most of the money it makes still ends up in the hands of those who will use it for evil or unrighteous cause. Simply because we live in an evil world whose god is the devil, this is all written in the Bible.

The vast majority of the money in the world goes in the wrong hands. This is why you cannot love both God and money. It's exactly the same as working for God or working for the devil. No gray areas here if you know how most of the money in the world is used.

This is why Jesus referred to money as "unrighteous wealth". He didn't cared if you're an honest worker working for an honest employer. It doesn't matter.

But Jesus taught us the good ways to use that unrighteous wealth. This is why I'm not telling anyone to quit their jobs. I won't discuss that here, anyone can find it in the Bible. It's not about how honest your employers are or about how honest you are at work, but where you invest that income makes you either a worker for God or a worker for the devil. (But I'll probably drop a hint, invest money to the poor, not on the rich and other worldly things).

Why we end up talking about money because the love of money really is the root of all evil and the fact it has deeply infiltrated all aspects of life in this corrupt world. And because Jesus have demonstrated a few times how you use money is a test whether you are truly saved or not. No gray areas between love of God and love of money. If you would deny / twist / misinterpret a teaching of the Lord or disobey to bless your worldly desires then clearly it is money you love and actually hate God (you cannot love both but will love one and hate the other).

"In order to be saved, you must work for the devil"

The most potent false teaching in the world but many Christians don't see it and fall victim to the trap because it is presented under this guise:

"In order to demonstrate your faith in God's Saving Grace, don't do good works"

But if you don't do good works then you are working for the devil because of lack a gray area there, we all work for something but it's only between two things, we either work for God or the devil. Some may way 'I'm only working for myself' But if you are working for yourself then you are also working for the devil because that highlights the fact, you love yourself more than God.

And by now, it is obvious we can only Love or Hate God. No gray areas there. But if our works declare we hate God. Can someone who hates God be truly saved even if he or she accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior?

You keep preaching as if I oppose you on this. I don't get it. I don't believe there's any gray area between the devil and God. And I don't believe "accepting the Lord" is doctrinally valid, nevermind Biblical language, for how to be saved. My only objection, if any, was that I don't know anyone who teaches this foolishness of work against God to be saved, and such. ...well, I do know several people that seem to have an addiction for the counter-intuitive, so maybe they would qualify, if they were presented with the notion...

 

[timewerx]

You keep preaching as if I oppose you on this. I don't get it. I don't believe there's any gray area between the devil and God. And I don't believe "accepting the Lord" is doctrinally valid, nevermind Biblical language, for how to be saved. My only objection, if any, was that I don't know anyone who teaches this foolishness of work against God to be saved, and such. ...well, I do know several people that seem to have an addiction for the counter-intuitive, so maybe they would qualify, if they were presented with the notion...

No I don't think you are objecting against my post. That's why I liked your previous post I replied to!

I'm just trying to expand, sorry if I sound like I don't agree with you.

 

[Soyeong]

Well, if he himself says the law cannot save you, but awakens you to your sinfulness, then that too is true, and the law is reliable to awaken you to your sinfulness. (And of course, your 'old man' rebels against it, but the regenerate heart delights in it!)

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. God's law was given to teach us how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and teaches us what sin is by contrast.

 

[Soyeong]

Are you overlooking the fact Luther believed in an Augustinian notion of Original Sin, that, according to the 95 Theses, all our works amount to mortal sins? Obedience in this life is always imperfect, according to both Lutheran and Reformed theology.

I'm not sure how that is related, though I'd be interested if you can quote where Luther said all of our works amount to mortal sins because that would be absurd. In Philippians 1:6, he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus. So if we can have perfect obedience in this life, then what would be left to complete on that day?

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not sure how that is related, though I'd be interested if you can quote where Luther said all of our works amount to mortal sins because that would be absurd. In Philippians 1:6, he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus. So if we can have perfect obedience in this life, then what would be left to complete on that day?

The Heidelberg Disputation #3 states that our works are likely to be mortal sins, even though they seem good:

Heidelberg Disputation (1518)

Editor’s Introduction Following Luther’s proposal for a disputation on the subject of indulgences, the Augustinian Order, to which Luther belonged, was generally supportive of his views. The head of the order in Germany, Johannes Staupitz, called for a formal disputation to be attended by the...

bookofconcord.org

Disputation #1 also denies that the Law can help a person become righteous.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This is probably the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today (see below)

However if you put this philosophy side-by-side with another philosophy that agrees with it, it begins to stand out in a bad way like spilling black ink in white dress.

Here it is:

After you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior >>

If you do works for God, you will be condemned to hell because it means you have not been truly saved yet and you still live in the dark, unable to see God's grace.

On the other hand, if you continue working for the devil (the world) but not God, you will go to heaven because it means you depend entirely on God's grace.

That perception demonizes grace, and does not perceive what it is.

 

[Soyeong]

The Heidelberg Disputation #3 states that our works are likely to be mortal sins, even though they seem good:

Heidelberg Disputation (1518)

Editor’s Introduction Following Luther’s proposal for a disputation on the subject of indulgences, the Augustinian Order, to which Luther belonged, was generally supportive of his views. The head of the order in Germany, Johannes Staupitz, called for a formal disputation to be attended by the...

bookofconcord.org

Disputation #1 also denies that the Law can help a person become righteous.

He was making a distinction between the works of man and the works of God, not speaking about our works done in obedience to God likely being mortal sins.

To describe someone as having a character trait is to describe them as being someone who chooses to act in accordance with that trait, so to say that God is righteous is also to say that He does what is righteous, which means that becoming righteous through faith is the same as becoming someone who actings in accordance with God's righteousness through the same faith, and God's law was given as instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteousness, not for how to result in becoming righteous as if it were earned as a wage.

 

[JohnW87]

This is obviously evil but philosophy and a whole has no part or lot among Christian's. Philosophy is mans feigned wisdom and pagan thought. This notion flies completely contrary to the bible in every way.

Colossians 2:8 KJV
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ
1 Corinthians 1:17-21 KJV
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. [18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. [20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? [21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[FireDragon76]

He was making a distinction between the works of man and the works of God, not speaking about our works done in obedience to God likely being mortal sins.

He didn't make that distinction in his theology. The works we do, even in obedience, do not merit the forgiveness of sins or eternal life.

To describe someone as having a character trait is to describe them as being someone who chooses to act in accordance with that trait, so to say that God is righteous is also to say that He does what is righteous, which means that becoming righteous through faith is the same as becoming someone who actings in accordance with God's righteousness through the same faith, and God's law was given as instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteousness, not for how to result in becoming righteous as if it were earned as a wage.

No, this isn't consistent with what Luther taught. He distinguished between the righteousness of faith, which is merely imputed to us, and is not properly our own, and the righteousness of our deeds, which do not merit justification.

 

[timewerx]

That perception demonizes grace, and does not perceive what it is.

It only demonizes teachings that twist the true meaning of God's Grace.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is obviously evil but philosophy and a whole has no part or lot among Christian's. Philosophy is mans feigned wisdom and pagan thought. This notion flies completely contrary to the bible in every way.

Colossians 2:8 KJV
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ
1 Corinthians 1:17-21 KJV
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. [18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. [20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? [21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

WHAT are you referring to that is obviously evil? The OP? Or what the OP talked about? Or some other post? I can't tell to what you are responding.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Michael Collum said:
That perception demonizes grace, and does not perceive what it is.

It only demonizes teachings that twist the true meaning of God's Grace.

You speak against what @Michael Collum said, but I'm thinking you two are speaking past each other. Michael wasn't meaning that your perception demonizes grace, but that the perception against which you were speaking demonizes grace, and does not perceive what it is. He was agreeing with you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is obviously evil but philosophy and a whole has no part or lot among Christian's. Philosophy is mans feigned wisdom and pagan thought. This notion flies completely contrary to the bible in every way.

Colossians 2:8 KJV
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ
1 Corinthians 1:17-21 KJV
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. [18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. [20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? [21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Besides the fact that I don't know to what you are responding, I have this to say: You may not realize it, but we all have a philosophy. That's kind of like someone saying they have no use for theology, when, whether they know it or not, everybody has a theology. As for more formal theology, yes, it is a mistake to trust it to any degree that disputes what Scripture teaches. But formal theological philosophy as whole has produced some particularly good things that thoroughly agree with Scripture, and expound on what Scripture means.

Take, for example, The Attributes of God, developed through formal philosophy; or take, the Arguments for God's Existence.

 

[timewerx]

Michael Collum said:
That perception demonizes grace, and does not perceive what it is.

You speak against what @Michael Collum said, but I'm thinking you two are speaking past each other. Michael wasn't meaning that your perception demonizes grace, but that the perception against which you were speaking demonizes grace, and does not perceive what it is. He was agreeing with you.

We can't be both speaking past each other if @Michael Collum is agreeing with me.

 

[fhansen]

This is probably the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today (see below)

However if you put this philosophy side-by-side with another philosophy that agrees with it, it begins to stand out in a bad way like spilling black ink in white dress.

Here it is:

After you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior >>

If you do works for God, you will be condemned to hell because it means you have not been truly saved yet and you still live in the dark, unable to see God's grace.

On the other hand, if you continue working for the devil (the world) but not God, you will go to heaven because it means you depend entirely on God's grace.


A grave example of Isaiah 5:20 and Jude 1:4?

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

From the beginning the church believed that God, alone, can justify man, not ourselves, based on the law, but God...alone, by grace as we turn to Him in faith. That faith results in union with Him and that vital, life-giving relationship is the basis of authentic justice/righteousness for man. The new testament mentions this gift of righteousness frequently, most often in Romans perhaps. And here in Phil 9 as well:
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

Once justified, now a child of God able to walk by the Spirit, we choose daily whether to continue to follow or not. We can and must walk the talk. Rom 8 sheds light on this:

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

And so this is how we may understand Rom 2:7, for example:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

The new covenant, by grace, accomplishes the righteousness in us that the old covenant, by the law, could not. The NC is about union with God first of all: man plus God (Apart from Me you can do nothing-John 15:5). The OC does not reconcile man with God; with the OC man must prove that he's holy already, apart from Him. With the NC man admits that he's not holy and that the only way he can be so is by subjugating himself to God in a bond based on faith, hope, and love, coming back home from the exile/alienation consisting of our own pride/preference for ourselves over God, that Adam sent us into. Then man can finally begin to be who he was created to be.

Paul was opposed to legalism, the idea that mere works of the law made one holy or righteous. But our obligation to be righteous remains nonetheless even when we're now under grace rather than under the law. Its just that grace again, can accomplish what the law cannot as long as we remain in Him and He in us, doing His will to the best we can, cooperating with His work.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It only demonizes teachings that twist the true meaning of God's Grace.

The OP or post I originally replied regarding appeared to be making a parody of teachings, but not describing teachings that are actually in existence.

 

[fhansen]

'That the righteous demands of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit' ( Romans 8:4)

Exactly, because, by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh. Rom 8:12-14

 

[fhansen]

The Holy Spirit dwells within the regenerate redeemed. He will not let them continue in serving the Devil.

And this concept is the reason why the confusion comes up to begin with. Believers, the "saved", can, indeed, return to the flesh-and thereby compromise their saved status. Our wills are not overwhelmed by grace; grace can be resisted at any point. The real problem is that, depending on the individual's perspective, the doctrine of Sola Fide either removes our righteousness from the "justification equation" altogether, with faith completely replacing the need for our righteousness, or it removes our wills from the equation, with faith guaranteeing that we'll have righteousness. Both of these positions are considered, wrongly, to be an action of grace.