Doctrine of Demons Christians believe in?

[fhansen]

Our salvation is not dependent on our participation.

Of course it is. Even though we will not participate without the work of grace, we can still resist that grace.

When God changes our will —not 'replaces' it, as you are wont to say— he does so by the gift of the Spirit of God indwelling us, not by our invitation, nor by our accepting anything, but in order to produce the faith through which we believe and are saved.

No this is an error. We must accept. Faith is both a gift-and a choice- a daily choice.

You say, "He...gives us the ability to comply." —Comply with what?, I'm wondering.

Comply with His requirements for us, beginning with faith but ultimately to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. That is the goal, the full culmination of justice/righteousness for man.

Augustine was usually a little more accurate than poetic.

He was often both. But his prose was clever enough. Augustine, as with the Catholic church, was fully aware of the absolute necessity of grace, but not unaware of the necessity of man's will to embrace it. Here's the full quote, from Sermon 169:

“He was handed over for our offenses, and He rose again for our justification (19).” What does this mean, “for our justification”? So that He might justify us; so that He might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you be a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”

 

[Mark Quayle]

While not a majority, the fact that there are some Evangelicals and particularly some Fundamentalist Calvinists who believe in the above is extremely disturbing, and is contrary to the doctrine of Sola Fide as understood by Luther, Calvin, Cranmer and the other Reformers, as my Lutheran, Calvinist and Anglican friends @ViaCrucis @MarkRohfrietsch @hedrick @Mark Quayle @Carl Emerson and @Shane R will agree.

Indeed, the rejection of doing Good Works by this small minority of wacky extremists, including, for example, Westboro Baptist Church, is condemned as heretical by pretty much everyone, whether Protestant, Orthodox, Catholic, Restorationist* or Assyrian.

And the Wesleyan Holiness movement produced entire denominations that believe in Sola Fide but are committed to performing Good Works, for example, the Salvation Army.

*Even the most extreme Restorationists like the Friends (Quakers) would reject this.

I'm honestly having a hard time thinking I am so ignorant as to not be aware of anyone that believes such foolishness. I mean, I know some individuals have reasoned it, but nobody I know of teaches and practices it, nevermind whole churches or denominations. I haven't even, except from you, heard that the Westboro Baptist Church does. I've heard plenty other garbage concerning them, but not this!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Of course it is. Even though we will not participate without the work of grace, we can still resist that grace.

No this is an error. We must accept. Faith is both a gift-and a choice- a daily choice.

Comply with His requirements for us, beginning with faith but ultimately to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. That is the goal, the full culmination of justice/righteousness for man.

He was often both. But his prose was clever enough. Augustine, as with the Catholic church, was fully aware of the absolute necessity of grace, but not unaware of the necessity of man's will to embrace it. Here's the full quote, from Sermon 169:

“He was handed over for our offenses, and He rose again for our justification (19).” What does this mean, “for our justification”? So that He might justify us; so that He might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you be a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that God could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”

Your remarks differ completely with what Augustine is saying, as also you misuse him in your quoting of him, just as I suspected. Here, Augustine is talking about the sense of 'Justifying', not what is usually referred to in salvation as the justification imputed to us in Christ, but as the increase in personal righteousness, i.e. what we call ongoing "sanctification" of the believer already saved, already justified. Notice that he says, "...He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent." But you quoted him as saying, (and this is a copy-paste), "He who made you without your consent does not save you without your consent." He did not say "save" as you claim he said, but in the longer quote you show him saying, "justify".

These, "justify", as Augustine used it, and, "saved", as you quoted him to say, are two completely different things, as the rest of what you quote Augustine to say aptly demonstrates.

 

[fhansen]

Your remarks differ completely with what Augustine is saying, as also you misuse him in your quoting of him, just as I suspected. Here, Augustine is talking about the sense of 'Justifying', not what is usually referred to in salvation as the justification imputed to us in Christ, but as the increase in personal righteousness, i.e. what we call ongoing "sanctification" of the believer already saved, already justified. Notice that he says, "...He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent." But you quoted him as saying, (and this is a copy-paste), "He who made you without your consent does not save you without your consent." He did not say "save" as you claim he said, but in the longer quote you show him saying, "justify".

These, "justify", as Augustine used it, and, "saved", as you quoted him to say, are two completely different things, as the rest of what you quote Augustine to say aptly demonstrates.

Nah, I may have misquoted from memory but to a Catholic, to Augustine, to be justified means to be saved. Because that's the point of justification. To Augustine, as with all the early fathers, we're made just, not merely imputed to be just. Sanctification is the process of continuing to confirm, strengthen, grow in that holiness, that righteousness, that justice, that life of God in us first given in seed form at when we turn to Him in faith.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm honestly having a hard time thinking I am so ignorant as to not be aware of anyone that believes such foolishness. I mean, I know some individuals have reasoned it, but nobody I know of teaches and practices it, nevermind whole churches or denominations. I haven't even, except from you, heard that the Westboro Baptist Church does. I've heard plenty other garbage concerning them, but not this!

Indeed, to be fair, I assumed they teach this based on their “God Hates You” campaign and “God Hates the World” website in which they pour scorn on every ethnicity and also every Christian church. But I realized this was a non sequitur and it seems more probable that in their own twisted way they think they are engaging in good works, by witnessing to doctrinal truth

This idea of good works being damnatory is an extreme minority position obviously and not even a significant minority, let alone the huge majority the OP fears.

So perhaps @timewerx you can take some solace in the fact that neither my friend Mark Quayle nor I can think of any local or parish churches, or let alone denominations that believe what you fear, let alone a majority.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Indeed, to be fair, I assumed they teach this based on their “God Hates You” campaign and “God Hates the World” website in which they pour scorn on every ethnicity and also every Christian church. But I realized this was a non sequitur and it seems more probable that in their own twisted way they think they are engaging in good works, by witnessing to doctrinal truth

This idea of good works being damnatory is an extreme minority position obviously and not even a significant minority, let alone the huge majority the OP fears.

So perhaps @timewerx you can take some solace in the fact that neither my friend Mark Quayle nor I can think of any local or parish churches, or let alone denominations that believe what you fear, let alone a majority.

The good works that are there for born again believers are those that are ordained of God, and these appear as the believer seeks to do the will of God in his life. If we look at Romans 12:2 and Philippians 4:8 we see the criteria on which we can test to see if an action is in the will of God for us. Therefore the good works that believers are to do to remain in the will of God are dependent on the following criteria: Are they:
perfect
acceptable
lovely
virtuous
good
true
consistent with Scripture
edifying
pleasing
right
pure
of good repute
worthy of praise
honourable.

These are the criteria for the good works that God has ordained for the believer. They don't contribute to the believer's salvation because that is achieved through the grace of God alone through Christ alone. But the good works ordained of God for the believers are for their developing sanctification, as they are transformed to conform to the image of Christ.

 

[fhansen]

These are the criteria for the good works that God has ordained for the believer. They don't contribute to the believer's salvation because that is achieved through the grace of God alone through Christ alone. But the good works ordained of God for the believers are for their developing sanctification, as they are transformed to conform to the image of Christ.

So is it impossible for a believer to fail to do good works, and/or to sin? And what would happen to him in that case? The bible seems to instruct and warn believers against such things, with eternal life at stake.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So is it impossible for a believer to fail to do good works, and/or to sin? And what would happen to him in that case? The bible seems to instruct and warn believers against such things, with eternal life at stake.

The genuine believer has a new heart and therefore has the desire to live according to God's will and to glorify Christ. He is also dead to sin, and Paul said, "How can a person continue in sin if he is dead to it?"

 

[fhansen]

The genuine believer has a new heart and therefore has the desire to live according to God's will and to glorify Christ. He is also dead to sin, and Paul said, "How can a person continue in sin if he is dead to it?"

That's right, unless he's not dead to sin. Are you 100% sinless?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's right, unless he's not dead to sin. Are you 100% sinless?

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. I am totally righteous before God, because I have been given the free gift of the righteousness of Christ. That means that God sees me as 100% sinless in Christ. Paul says, "There is no good in me, that is, in my flesh." This is why we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, so that as we walk in the Spirit we are walking in the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. The sinfulness of our flesh will be totally erased when we are resurrected to new life when Jesus comes again.

So, a person who is not dead to sin is not genuinely converted to Christ. He may have the Christian 'badge', but he is still dead in his sins and his Christian profession is hypocrisy.

 

[RileyG]

I believe in demonic possession and demonic activity in the world. How it affects believers, is according to God's will.

 

[RileyG]

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. I am totally righteous before God, because I have been given the free gift of the righteousness of Christ. That means that God sees me as 100% sinless in Christ. Paul says, "There is no good in me, that is, in my flesh." This is why we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, so that as we walk in the Spirit we are walking in the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. The sinfulness of our flesh will be totally erased when we are resurrected to new life when Jesus comes again.

So, a person who is not dead to sin is not genuinely converted to Christ. He may have the Christian 'badge', but he is still dead in his sins and his Christian profession is hypocrisy.

If you claim you are sinless, doesn't that make you prideful? What about future sin?

 

[RileyG]

The genuine believer has a new heart and therefore has the desire to live according to God's will and to glorify Christ. He is also dead to sin, and Paul said, "How can a person continue in sin if he is dead to it?"

Yes. But he or she MUST cooperate with the grace of God. God does not suddenly take away our free will. WE can choose to walk away from Christ if we CHOOSE to.

 

[fhansen]

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. I am totally righteous before God, because I have been given the free gift of the righteousness of Christ. That means that God sees me as 100% sinless in Christ. Paul says, "There is no good in me, that is, in my flesh." This is why we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, so that as we walk in the Spirit we are walking in the light, then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. The sinfulness of our flesh will be totally erased when we are resurrected to new life when Jesus comes again.

So, a person who is not dead to sin is not genuinely converted to Christ. He may have the Christian 'badge', but he is still dead in his sins and his Christian profession is hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy would be to say one is righteous when, in fact, they are not. God's not interested in playing such games-in such pretense- but in restoring authentic justice/righteousness to His wayward creation. That's why Jesus came, and that's why He's the answer to sin and its condemnation: death. To be dead to sin means to be free from it. So John seeks to clear up error in this matter

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you claim you are sinless, doesn't that make you prideful? What about future sin?

I suggest you read the Bible to get a better understanding of what the Gospel is all about. How much of a saviour do you reckon Jesus is?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hypocrisy would be to say one is righteous when, in fact, they are not. God's not interested in playing such games-in such pretense- but in restoring authentic justice/righteousness to His wayward creation. That's why Jesus came, and that's why He's the answer to sin and its condemnation: death. To be dead to sin means to be free from it. So John seeks to clear up error in this matter

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Do you believe that the righteousness of Christ is a free gift that God bestows on us by His grace? One can try to be as good and holy as he can, but if he doesn't have the righteousness of Christ he is still dead in his sins and will be rejected at the Judgment.

 

[fhansen]

Do you believe that the righteousness of Christ is a free gift that God bestows on us by His grace? One can try to be as good and holy as he can, but if he doesn't have the righteousness of Christ he is still dead in his sins and will be rejected at the Judgment.

The righteousness of Christ is a free gift to us…of real righteousness. As we remain in Him, living by the Spirit, we will overcome sin, doing good, living righteously. That’s why there’s now no condemnation in Christ (Rom 8:1). It’s the same as the “righteousness of/from God” in Rom 3:6,22, Rom 10:3, Phil 3:9:

“…and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.”

 

[Mark Quayle]

The genuine believer has a new heart and therefore has the desire to live according to God's will and to glorify Christ. He is also dead to sin, and Paul said, "How can a person continue in sin if he is dead to it?"

That's right, unless he's not dead to sin. Are you 100% sinless?

He says, "consider yourself dead to sin" (Romans 6:11)

 

[fhansen]

He says, "consider yourself dead to sin" (Romans 6:11)

Yes, from here on out do not commit sin, or else you'll have to consider yourself alive to it, and dead to Christ. So the next verse:
"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires."

Why? Rom 6 continues in verses 21-22:
"What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

And this is consistent with Heb 12:14, as an example:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, from here on out do not commit sin, or else you'll have to consider yourself alive to it, and dead to Christ. So the next verse:
"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires."

Why? Rom 6 continues in verses 21-22:
"What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."

And this is consistent with Heb 12:14, as an example:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

The obvious implication from, "...do not let sin reign in your mortal body...", and, "Make every effort...to be holy...", and, "consider yourself dead to sin", and any exhortation from a NT writer to believers to be obedient, pure, dedicated, etc, is the same thing spoken outright by John:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The "old man" must be continually put to death.