Doctrine of Demons Christians believe in?

[timewerx]

This is probably the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today (see below)

However if you put this philosophy side-by-side with another philosophy that agrees with it, it begins to stand out in a bad way like spilling black ink in white dress.

Here it is:

After you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior >>

If you do works for God, you will be condemned to hell because it means you have not been truly saved yet and you still live in the dark, unable to see God's grace.

On the other hand, if you continue working for the devil (the world) but not God, you will go to heaven because it means you depend entirely on God's grace.


A grave example of Isaiah 5:20 and Jude 1:4?

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

[friend of]

I wouldn't call that the most popular, personally

 

[timewerx]

I wouldn't call that the most popular, personally

Out in the real world, I hear so many believe in such philosophy even preachers preaching the stuff.

But not those two red text philosophies together. Because if you put them together it really stands out.

 

[friend of]

We are saved for good works, comes to mind

 

[HTacianas]

This is probably the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today (see below)

However if you put this philosophy side-by-side with another philosophy that agrees with it, it begins to stand out in a bad way like spilling black ink in white dress.

Here it is:

After you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior >>

If you do works for God, you will be condemned to hell because it means you have not been truly saved yet and you still live in the dark, unable to see God's grace.

On the other hand, if you continue working for the devil (the world) but not God, you will go to heaven because it means you depend entirely on God's grace.


A grave example of Isaiah 5:20 and Jude 1:4?

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

While that is in fact the belief of a good many people, it is nowhere near "the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today". You'll find that idea only among some protestant groups. The majority view within Christianity is that we enter into salvation by faith through grace, but it is our works that determine whether we remain in that salvation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is probably the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today (see below)

However if you put this philosophy side-by-side with another philosophy that agrees with it, it begins to stand out in a bad way like spilling black ink in white dress.

Here it is:

After you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior >>

If you do works for God, you will be condemned to hell because it means you have not been truly saved yet and you still live in the dark, unable to see God's grace.

On the other hand, if you continue working for the devil (the world) but not God, you will go to heaven because it means you depend entirely on God's grace.


A grave example of Isaiah 5:20 and Jude 1:4?

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Who honestly teaches that? I have heard some say that dependence on works for salvation is false, and some say the opposite, and some who propose some sort of combination, but I don't know of anyone who says if you do works for God you are reprobate.

I also know of nobody who says that if you serve the Devil and not God, you will go to Heaven.

 

[HTacianas]

Who honestly teaches that? I have heard some say that dependence on works for salvation is false, and some say the opposite, and some who propose some sort of combination, but I don't know of anyone who says if you do works for God you are reprobate.

I also know of nobody who says that if you serve the Devil and not God, you will go to Heaven.

It's more prevalent than you might think. We have a few antinomians who post here every now and then. The claim goes that if you keep the commandments of God you are relying on your own works for salvation, hence you lack enough faith to be saved. There's a very popular preacher on television that said "if you attempt to add one single thing to faith you are cursed". I'm paraphrasing slightly but that is in fact what he said.

 

[Soyeong]

This is probably the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today (see below)

However if you put this philosophy side-by-side with another philosophy that agrees with it, it begins to stand out in a bad way like spilling black ink in white dress.

Here it is:

After you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior >>

If you do works for God, you will be condemned to hell because it means you have not been truly saved yet and you still live in the dark, unable to see God's grace.

On the other hand, if you continue working for the devil (the world) but not God, you will go to heaven because it means you depend entirely on God's grace.


A grave example of Isaiah 5:20 and Jude 1:4?

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I've run into a number of people who think that if someone does any works, then they are trying to earn their salvation as a wage and that they are not trusting entirely in what Christ accomplished through the cross in spite of the fact that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14), but I would not say that that is anywhere close to mainstream Christian philosophy. I've also come across a number of people who think that if we do any works, then we are not trusting in God alone instead thinking that the way to have faith in God alone to guide us is by doing works that He has instructed, but again that is not mainstream philosophy. Again in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is essential described as being trained by grace to do good works. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it.

 

[timewerx]

You'll find that idea only among some protestant groups.

Some that are rather popular.

We don't see many of them participating in this forum because they simply don't care enough. They're just in it for salvation and nothing else. Salvation is really their god.

 

[timewerx]

I've also come across a number of people who think that if we do any works, then we are not trusting in God alone instead thinking that the way to have faith in God alone to guide us is by doing works that He has instructed, but again that is not mainstream philosophy.

Although we don't see them much, they're there. You just can't make them out from unbelievers because they tend to behave and have similar goals in life as unbelievers.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's more prevalent than you might think. We have a few antinomians who post here every now and then. The claim goes that if you keep the commandments of God you are relying on your own works for salvation, hence you lack enough faith to be saved. There's a very popular preacher on television that said "if you attempt to add one single thing to faith you are cursed". I'm paraphrasing slightly but that is in fact what he said.

You say, "There's a very popular preacher on television that said "if you attempt to add one single thing to faith you are cursed". I'm paraphrasing slightly but that is in fact what he said."

That's a mile away from "if you keep the commandments of God you are relying on your own works for salvation", unless the context shows that's what he meant by it. After all, it is true that if you rely on obedience to save you, what you are relying on can't save you.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've run into a number of people who think that if someone does any works, then they are trying to earn their salvation as a wage and that they are not trusting entirely in what Christ accomplished through the cross in spite of the fact that Christ gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works (Titus 2:14), but I would not say that that is anywhere close to mainstream Christian philosophy. I've also come across a number of people who think that if we do any works, then we are not trusting in God alone instead thinking that the way to have faith in God alone to guide us is by doing works that He has instructed, but again that is not mainstream philosophy. Again in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is essential described as being trained by grace to do good works. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it.

The problem with that logic is that it implies that trusting in God perfectly is a necessary work, when from a Lutheran or Reformed standpoint, it isn't.

From a classical Protestant POV, works do not justify a person before God in any way.

 

[FireDragon76]

While that is in fact the belief of a good many people, it is nowhere near "the most popular / mainstream philosophy in Christianity today". You'll find that idea only among some protestant groups. The majority view within Christianity is that we enter into salvation by faith through grace, but it is our works that determine whether we remain in that salvation.

Grace for outsiders, but not insiders? Does God do a "bait and switch"?

 

[Joined2krist]

'That the righteous demands of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit' ( Romans 8:4)

 

[timewerx]

That's a mile away from "if you keep the commandments of God you are relying on your own works for salvation", unless the context shows that's what he meant by it. After all, it is true that if you rely on obedience to save you, what you are relying on can't save you.

I understand it crystal clear.

But here's the little problem, between God and the Devil, there's not a lot of gray areas. It wouldn't be surprising if there's none at all.

I know it sounds bad for someone to rely on Godly work in their salvation.

But this sounds a lot worse:

To demonstrate your faith in God's Saving Grace, then you don't do Godly works. But if you don't do Godly works, then you are working for the Devil.

Therefore, to demonstrate your faith in God's Saving Grace, then you must continue working for the Devil.

Which can be reduced to this phrase: "In order to be Saved, then you must work for the Devil".


Note, I'm not rallying anyone to quit their jobs nor stop going to school. Just trying to bring home a message that some teachings Christians follow seems to serve the Devil's agenda instead of God's agenda.

Just ask yourself, is the Devil going to be happy that I accepted Jesus as my savior and yet still work for the devil just like unbelievers? You bet he will be happy!

 

[Soyeong]

The problem with that logic is that it implies that trusting in God perfectly is a necessary work, when from a Lutheran or Reformed standpoint, it isn't.

From a classical Protestant POV, works do not justify a person before God in any way.

Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith. While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 the we can earn our justification as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that one doers of the law will be justified, so there must be reasons why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn our salvation, such as faith insofar as Paul said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed through living in obedience to God's law.

Grace for outsiders, but not insiders? Does God do a "bait and switch"?

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us how to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

 

[Soyeong]

You say, "There's a very popular preacher on television that said "if you attempt to add one single thing to faith you are cursed". I'm paraphrasing slightly but that is in fact what he said."

That's a mile away from "if you keep the commandments of God you are relying on your own works for salvation", unless the context shows that's what he meant by it. After all, it is true that if you rely on obedience to save you, what you are relying on can't save you.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed, while it is contradictory for someone to think that we are being saved by relying on God, but are not being saved by relying on what He has instructed.

 

[friend of]

Paul training his body so that when he had preached he would not himself be disqualified comes to mind. Was he working for the devil? Surely not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed, while it is contradictory for someone to think that we are being saved by relying on God, but are not being saved by relying on what He has instructed.

Well, if he himself says the law cannot save you, but awakens you to your sinfulness, then that too is true, and the law is reliable to awaken you to your sinfulness. (And of course, your 'old man' rebels against it, but the regenerate heart delights in it!)

 

[Mark Quayle]

I understand it crystal clear.

But here's the little problem, between God and the Devil, there's not a lot of gray areas. It wouldn't be surprising if there's none at all.

God uses the devil, but he warns us about him.

I know it sounds bad for someone to rely on Godly work in their salvation.

I guess you mean it is sounds bad to rely on the human's 'Godly work' for salvation. With that I agree.

But this sounds a lot worse:

To demonstrate your faith in God's Saving Grace, then you don't do Godly works. But if you don't do Godly works, then you are working for the Devil.

Therefore, to demonstrate your faith in God's Saving Grace, then you must continue working for the Devil.

Which can be reduced to this phrase: "In order to be Saved, then you must work for the Devil".

I agree. That is monstrous. There aren't enough bad words to describe that. "May it never be!" We mustn't "sin that grace may abound."

Note, I'm not rallying anyone to quit their jobs nor stop going to school. Just trying to bring home a message that some teachings Christians follow seems to serve the Devil's agenda instead of God's agenda.

I'm glad I don't know anybody who teaches that.

Just ask yourself, is the Devil going to be happy that I accepted Jesus as my savior and yet still work for the devil just like unbelievers? You bet he will be happy!

Of course he would love that! Not only does it demonstrate that the person doing that is deceived, but the person doing that is demonstrating that he isn't even saved. The Holy Spirit dwells within the regenerate redeemed. He will not let them continue in serving the Devil.