Do your best to explain Romans 5

[redleghunter]

Pure math! The mass made sinners, the mass made righteous. Was the dreaded "U' word mentioned in my response?

Well the math in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 is subtraction not addition.

 

[Bobber]

Dead people can't choose.

People spiritually dead doesn't mean having no consciousness. It means separation from God. Some people are "dead" while they live. 1 Timothy 5:6

 

[redleghunter]

I think this is too much to go through. Referring to your recent posts. Isn't it better if you explain this by your own words?

Sorry for the length. With all the questions here , the best way is to actually learn the text and conduct an expository examination.

 

[redleghunter]

I will ask you, was the blood sprinkled for the whole Israel or only for those people in Israel that were saved?

It was for all circumcised males and their families. The chosen nation and people. But it was not for the unbelieving Gentile nations.

 

[redleghunter]

Anyone sprinkled with the blood meant their sins were covered by the sacrifice.
Peter uses that term in describing the elect in 1 Peter 1.
Now WHO does the sprinkling? Who obtains it? Why do they get sprinkled? This does not just fall on everybody.
The elect are sprinkled by Christs blood and only the elect, so only the saved get sprinkled and have their sins covered by Christ's blood. The unbelieving world dies in their sins.

1 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the [a]pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Thanks . Never made that connection of 1 Peter 1. Still amazes me....the Gospel on every page.

 

[redleghunter]

You said something that may have clicked. Remember when He tell His disciples that you are clean because of the word spoken to them. It says it is the Spirit that gives life. Those words that He had spoken He said were Spirit and life. So then can it be since the gospel is the power unto salvation. Anyone who hears the word is cleansed ?is this the quikening by the Spirit?

I don't want to post long chapters again so I will post links. Let me know what you think reading the following chapters :

Ephesians 2 NASB

Romans 8 NASB

1 Peter 1 NASB

I think the important chapter for your question is Ephesians 2. Romans 8 is probably best if you are an engineer. 1 Peter 1 is just plain blunt like Peter and why I like it.

 

[Bobber]

How can children of wrath who are spiritually dead in their trespasses accomplish this feat. The dead don't hear. They are dead.

They don't hear eh? "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." Ephesians 5 Well they're being spoken to so they hear. If they choose to come awake God will cause them to arise from the dead and THEN he'll illuminate them...Christ then will give them LIGHT.

 

[Bobber]

I would disagree! Those people who come to Christ, come not because they are born of God, but to be born of God.

Well said!

 

[sdowney717]

I think you misunderstand the concept of spiritual death. It is not the same as physical death. Unless you are an annihilationist (many are). Unlike physical death, where the physical body simply ceases to exist, the spiritual body continues in eternity, whether "alive" in the presence of God, or "dead" separated from Him. And no I don't believe I inherited Adam's sin. I inherited his sin nature, but I was created in the image and likeness of God, so I am not totally depraved. I am capable of making a choice to believe and obey, or not. It was when I made that choice that His grace was imparted to me, when I put on Christ it was then that my old spirit of death (separation from God) was itself put to death, and I arose a new spiritual creature, no longer separated (dead) from Him but now united with Him (alive) through His blood. It is that blood that continues to cleanse me of all my sins, provided I continue in the Faith and walk in the Light.

Same choice Joshua made and challenged Israel to make. Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

Compared to the holiness of God and the holy angels (and those who are in heaven), you are totally depraved unless perfected in Christ. Jesus tells us you must be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
God speaks after the flood and tells us man is totally depraved by this verse, about the heart of man.

Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

This total depravity does not mean you are as evil as can be. But a little leaven leavens the whole loaf.
Unless God does His work in you so that you believe in Christ, you will never believe in Him. You are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus, that means you are spiritually alive in Him and because of Him you are in Christ, and this is not of yourself. Being born of God has nothing to do with your decision, neither does it for them who are naturally born into a family on earth.

John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

1 Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

But they are dead.

Who is sinless?

Infants and young children along with the mentally incompetent.

 

[sdowney717]

Well said!

Nah, they come to Christ to be sealed in the Holy Spirit unto the Day of the redemption of the purchased possession. And this is according To God's purpose and will for the individual.

 

[sdowney717]

They don't hear eh? "Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." Ephesians 5 Well they're being spoken to so they hear. If they choose to come awake God will cause them to arise from the dead and THEN he'll illuminate them...Christ then will give them LIGHT.

To awake and rise from the dead means to be born from above, of God.
If they can hear, means they have been given spiritual ears to hear and respond to God's call.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Did I miss your exegesis on the subject?

A most unkind post. How many of the brethren have you offended with the above post?

How many of the brethren have been offended by Calvinists? How many were murdered by John Calvin as the virtual dictator of Geneva?

 

[redleghunter]

John 6:44-45 says that hearing the spirit and learning of the father happen before coming to Christ. That was definitely my experience.

How do you handle the calling before all that?

 

[redleghunter]

With looking at Chapter 4 Verse 22-25
It begs the question of when is man truly justified before God and can He be more than once born from above?

I don't think so. Justification is based on the Righteousness of Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't want to post long chapters again so I will post links. Let me know what you think reading the following chapters :

Ephesians 2 NASB

Romans 8 NASB

1 Peter 1 NASB

I think the important chapter for your question is Ephesians 2. Romans 8 is probably best if you are an engineer. 1 Peter 1 is just plain blunt like Peter and why I like it.

I really like how the NIV exposes the election that Peter teaches about.

The elect have been chosen by the Father to be obedient to Christ and receive the atonement for their sins.
God does this work by sanctifying us, a work of the Holy Spirit on behalf of the Lord's very own elect, we do not make ourselves acceptable unto God, so this is not about our choices.
The foreknowledge here is the same as Paul says 'For whom He did foreknow', as in a relationship of love as His people, but not what He foreknew about what they would do. Election and foreknowledge is personal.

1 Peter 1 New International Version (NIV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't think so. Justification is based on the Righteousness of Christ.

Just a sidebar but in reference to what you said about being spiritually dead. When God warned Adam of the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit he says you shall surely die. In the Hebrew it more literally reads, dieting you shall die. It's kind of like when the Bible speaks of spiritual darkness, it's seldom pitch black. The curse of sin and death isn't an execution, it's a slow poison

 

[SpiritRehab]

Since it's a description of the atonement, it's a very central chapter of the Bible. Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5.

R5:1
Justified by Faith means, being found innocent and released from criminal charges by reason of our trust or reliance.
Peace with God means, YHWH would have been forced by His righteous character to punish with destruction creatures He loves, but since we have been Justified by Faith, He has no reason to destroy us.
Through Adoni Yahusha Meshiakh means, we trust & rely on Him as our Justifier. Specifically, believing that He took on Himself our crimes & resulting punishment and gave us His innocence & righteousness; rendering us innocent / justified.
R5:2
adds that Meshiakh not only gave us peace with YHWH, but even Grace, meaning undeserved help, loving assistance, Charity. And that our boast is in our hope of YHWH's glory, means we do not boast in our achievements or our ability, but in YWHW's astonishing charitable love, His suffering to save us, the outward expression (glory) of His inward beauty (character).
R5:3
We also Glory in our Sufferings which produces Perseverance, means we show His inner beauty (character) in us, by not allowing our suffering persecution to stop us from sharing His charitable offer of justification.
R5:4
Perseverance > Character > Hope, means the more stronger our will to continue to serve in the face of suffering, the more our selfishness will diminish & our selflessness (charitable love) will increase, which in turn produces more anticipation for YWHW's charitable love toward us and the one's we have shared His offer with.

 

[redleghunter]

Ok. agreed. God is active. He operates according to His will. Is the argument that man does not/cannot operate according to his will also?

Yes we are responsible for every action we make bad or good. In Romans 6, however, Paul says our human will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to the Righteousness of God.

 

[redleghunter]

IMO, you cannot explain Romans 5 in context without including Romans 6.

I would say all of it. The whole book of Romans is a theological treatise.