Do your best to explain Romans 5

[zoidar]

One chapter I've been reading maybe more than any other chapter in the Bible, that is Romans 5. Since it's a description of the atonement, it's a very central chapter of the Bible. Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5. Let us discuss this chapter and do our best to understand it.

Christ love,

P

 

[Call me Nic]

Romans 5:18 I feel summarizes the chapter in a concise way.

 

[zoidar]

5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgressionresulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[zoidar]

Romans 5:18 I feel summarizes the chapter in a concise way.

You then believe "all men" means all mankind? I know Calvinists would disagree...

 

[sdowney717]

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The many will be made righteous, how many is how many? Only through Jesus Christ and if they become part of the New Covenant by faith in His blood. It just seems to me that most people are not saved, so many here can not mean so many people like we think of many as in most people.

The many are only those who actually obtain salvation. Jesus said few find eternal life, but many walk the broad path to destruction. But it is of those few that do, they are considered the many, a multitude as in also a large company.
Few
Matthew 7:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [a]Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

But a large amount of people are those few. The few are to be considered a multitude.

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

 

[Call me Nic]

You then believe "all men" means all mankind? I know Calvinists would disagree...

Well I'm not Calvinist. God wants all men to be saved (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-4), and Christ is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10), even though not all men receive eternal life by faith (Romans 5:2, John 1:12).

 

[zoidar]

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The many will be made righteous, how many is how many? Only through Jesus Christ and if they become part of the New Covenant by faith in His blood. It just seems to me that most people are not saved, so many here can not mean so many people like we think of many as in most people.

The many are only those who actually obtain salvation. Jesus said few find eternal life, but many walk the broad path to destruction. But it is of those few that do, they are considered the many, a multitude as in also a large company.
Few
Matthew 7:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [a]Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

But a large amount of people are those few. The few are to be considered a multitude.

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

YLT of 5:18 is: "So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;"

Is it possible that Paul says: as one offence "it is" to condemnation for all men, one delcaration of righteous (Jesus crucifixion) "it is" "the means" to all men to justification of life?

 

[sdowney717]

'even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men'
However this can not mean 'all' as in each and every single person, since are all justified to eternal life as in saved? Do you believe in a universal salvation of all men?

All here means all mankind, those of every nation tribe tongue kindred, all over the world, not just Jewish people as Revelation 7:9 so says. You need to remember when the apostles wrote down the scripture, most people assumed the jews were God's favorite, the only ones, and the gentiles were cursed. So the idea is for all men all over the earth Christ died, not just the jews. But not each individual person is justified to-for eternal life because of Christ's death, but only those that believe in Him
.
Romans 5:18 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
18 Well then, as one man’s trespass [one man’s false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man’s act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.

 

[zoidar]

'even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men'
However this can not mean 'all' as in each and every single person, since are all justified to eternal life as in saved? Do you believe in a universal salvation of all men?

All here means all mankind, those of every nation tribe tongue kindred, all over the world, not just Jewish people as Revelation 7:9 so says. You need to remember when the apostles wrote down the scripture, most people assumed the jews were God's favorite, the only ones, and the gentiles were cursed. So the idea is for all men all over the earth Christ died, not just the jews. But not each individual person is justified to-for eternal life because of Christ's death, but only those that believe in Him
.
Romans 5:18 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
18 Well then, as one man’s trespass [one man’s false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man’s act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men.

So the first "all men" means "all men" and the second "all men" means "some men" ?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Z,
I think it's important to know if one believes that Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind, OR if only the effects of that sin were passed down to all mankind.

I believe the bible teaches that God does not impute Adam's sin to all mankind. We are each responsible for our own sins.
Romans 4:8

So what we get from Adam's sin is the effects of his sin.
He disobeyed God and as the representative of all man, he caused the fall of grace of man and man had now acquired the sin nature...that is the tendency to lean toward evil and to be born with the sin nature.

Why did this happen? Because satan tempted Eve and Adam also ate of the fruit. Man left the abode of God, and became a servant, or slave to satan. Man now died, both spiritually and physically. He would now sin due to his sin nature. And if he didn't listen to God, he would die spiritually eternally.

The Ransom Theory of Atonement makes sense to me because Jesus died to win us back from satan. Jesus won death because he came back to life, and He won sin because He never sinned. As our representative, He won us back from satan.

I do not agree that the ransom was paid to satan...Also, there are problems with this theory...

CE. There are very few theologians outside of the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Protestant Word-faith Movement who believe in it today. 1However, one might argue that this concept may be the most accurate theory of all, because it was accepted by Christian leaders within two centuries after Yeshua's (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) and Paul's death. This happened when memories of their teachings were still relatively fresh.


source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone7.htm

 

[συνείδησις]

You then believe "all men" means all mankind? I know Calvinists would disagree...

The justification is there for them if they want it.

 

[Call me Nic]

'even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men'
However this can not mean 'all' as in each and every single person, since are all justified to eternal life as in saved? Do you believe in a universal salvation of all men?

No, the free gift is paid for and freely offered to all men, but not all men receive it. It doesn't deny the fact that Jesus is savior of all, even though not all receive salvation. You're limiting the sacrifice of Christ with your limited atonement garbage.

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Well if he's paid for everyone's sins as the Bible says, why doesn't everyone get salvation?

Because not everyone chooses life like the children of Israel were given the choice to choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19), and receives Christ to become born of God (John 1:12, Romans 5:2, 1 John 5:1).

Well how is that possible, you ask? Because we have free will.

 

[Call me Nic]

Z,
I think it's important to know if one believes that Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind, OR if only the effects of that sin were passed down to all mankind.

I believe the bible teaches that God does not impute Adam's sin to all mankind. We are each responsible for our own sins.
Romans 4:8

So what we get from Adam's sin is the effects of his sin.
He disobeyed God and as the representative of all man, he caused the fall of grace of man and man had now acquired the sin nature...that is the tendency to lean toward evil and to be born with the sin nature.

Why did this happen? Because satan tempted Eve and Adam also ate of the fruit. Man left the abode of God, and became a servant, or slave to satan. Man now died, both spiritually and physically. He would not sin due to his sin nature. And if he didn't listen to God, he would die spiritually eternally.

The Ransom Theory of Atonement makes sense to me because Jesus died to win us back from satan. Jesus won death because he came back to life, and He won sin because He never sinned. As our representative, He won us back from satan.

I do not agree that the ransom was paid to satan...Also, there are problems with this theory...

CE. There are very few theologians outside of the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Protestant Word-faith Movement who believe in it today. 1However, one might argue that this concept may be the most accurate theory of all, because it was accepted by Christian leaders within two centuries after Yeshua's (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) and Paul's death. This happened when memories of their teachings were still relatively fresh.


source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone7.htm

We agree for once.

 

[Chinchilla]

(there will be my opinion so separate it from the Scriptures )

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(regained relatonship with God through his Son by believing in him)

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(We were forgiven by faith and it was God's grace which means not by works , we can now glorify God meaning we can finally worship him in truth and in our happiness )

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
( not only in our happiness but by suffering for him also being tested and growing our patience )

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
(by gaining patience we gain experience and with that we gain hope )

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
(we are not ashemed hoping for resurrection because we have Holy Ghost which was given by faith in shed Christ blood )

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
(when we were dead he died for our tresspasses )

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
(for somebody who is worthy of dying for person could wish to die , even for some people which work good in world would some sacrifice themselfes)

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(but God did not look to die for somebody worthy , Christ loved us to die for these who did not deserve )

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(we are made clean from sin by his blood , we are saved from God's judgement)

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
(We were enemies because God could not have us sinners in his presence , had restores our relationship with him because he put his anger on his own Son instead of us so we could be seen blameless in his sight )

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
( we show our happines in God by receiving his atonement which was Christ )

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Because of Adam sin we all sinned and earn wage of death )

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(Sin was before the Law of Moses , but is not imputed when the payment for it is fulfilled by fulfilling the law)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(we all inherit sin from Adam to Moses , even before the law , even these who did not transgress like Adam , Christ was representing Adam who would reconsile)

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(Because of one man sin , one man can pay the penalty for sin so everybody can be reconsiled by grace through Jesus Christ )

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
( The sin of one was paid by gift of one , because of Adam's one sin we would be judged for all our sins but free gift is enought to take away all of them )

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
(Because of Adam sin we all inherit death and sin , but grace through gift of sinless Christ will reconsile and give us eternal life )

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(Because of Sin of one we were had God's wrath upon us , but by one sinless we all gained free gift and are made without sin to get life )

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Because Adam wilfully decided to disobey and we all sin because of him , so by one who decided to pay the price we are blameles in God's eyes )

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
(Law required sin to be punished , but grace is stronger and make the sin of no effect )

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Sin gives death , but grace through Jesus Christ gives us his righteoussness so we can life forever )



Well most of these verses are speaking all about the same you could sum up the whole chapter in 4-5 verses . The sin from Adam is the curse that he brough upon us and overall the death of not only humans but whole creation is falling apart and Christ came to restore not only relationship but everything , the whole creation .

 

[sdowney717]

So the first "all men" means "all men" and the second "all men" means "some men" ?

Some of you anticalvanist 'haters' are so shallow in your thinking.

what do you think Jesus meant when He taught this,

John 6
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me

So what about everyone else not given to Christ by God before they come, since the ones given by God to Christ come to Him, that leaves the others out. Obviously some are not given to Christ by God and because of that dont come to Christ, they do not believe in Him.

Which is why, Christ also then says this in regards to them that did not believe in Christ. So obviously God the Father does not grant all men to come to Christ, and that explains why people do not believe in Him.
John 6
65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Another atonement view which I can agree with is the Christus Victor theory. It's very similar to the Ransom theory. Jesus came to win us back from satan -- no ransom, although scripture does state this ransom. I find these two theories to be very similar..

Christ’s Victory Over the Powers
According to the New Testament, the central thing Jesus did was drive out the “prince of this world” (Jn 12:31). He came to “destroy the works of the devil” (I Jn 3:8). He came to “destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil” in order to “free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death” (Heb. 2:14-15). Jesus lived, died and rose again to establish a new reign that would ultimately “put all his enemies under his feet” (I Cor 15:25). Though “the strong man” was “fully armed,” one who was “stronger than he” had finally arrived who could attack and overpower him” (Lk 11:21-22). While the cosmic “thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy,” Jesus came into the world to vanquish the thief so that all “may have life and have it abundantly” (Jn 10:10). Jesus “disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them…” (Col 2:15). In a word, Jesus came to end the cosmic war that had been raging from time immemorial and to set Satan’s captives free ( Lk 4:18; Eph 4:8).

source: http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-christus-victor-view-of-the-atonement/

 

[συνείδησις]

I think it's important to know if one believes that Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind, OR if only the effects of that sin were passed down to all mankind.

I believe the bible teaches that God does not impute Adam's sin to all mankind. We are each responsible for our own sins.

I agree with you. Adam died spiritually. Not that his spirit died, but it was separated from GOD's spirit. Adam's sons inherited his defective legacy. Consequently, without the perfect knowledge of how to do GOD's will, all men sin.

 

[zoidar]

No, the free gift is paid for and freely offered to all men, but not all men receive it. It doesn't deny the fact that Jesus is savior of all, even though not all receive salvation. You're limiting the sacrifice of Christ with your limited atonement garbage.

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Well if he's paid for everyone's sins as the Bible says, why doesn't everyone get salvation?

Because not everyone chooses life like the children of Israel were given the choice to choose life (Deuteronomy 30:19), and receives Christ to become born of God (John 1:12, Romans 5:2, 1 John 5:1).

Well how is that possible, you ask? Because we have free will.

Of course I believe you are correct.

One reason I didn't start this thread earlier is because I know it's a serious issue that triggers our emotions. It touches the core of the Christian teaching and the character and heart of God.

 

[Call me Nic]

Some of you anticalvanist 'haters' are so shallow in your thinking.

what do you think Jesus meant when He taught this,

John 6
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me

So what about everyone else not given to Christ by God before they come, since the ones given by God to Christ come to Him, that leaves the others out. Obviously some are not given to Christ by God and because of that dont come to Christ, they do not believe in Him.

Which is why, Christ also then says this in regards to them that did not believe in Christ.
John 6
65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

You're literally adding to scripture. There is no place in that verse that says there is anybody that is not given to Christ, no, in fact, the Lord is saying that he came down to do the will of the Father, which is for everyone that sees him to believe on him.

And everyone has seen him, but not everyone follows the will of God. (Titus 2:11). God's grace has appeared unto all men, because Jesus has drawn all men unto him (John 12:32).

Again, not all choose to receive him (John 1:12).

 

[Call me Nic]

Of course I believe you are correct.

One reason I didn't start this thread earlier is because I know it's a serious issue that triggers our emotions. It touches the core of the Christian teaching and the character and heart of God.

I mean, I think I sound more emotional over the keyboard then I truly am feeling, because my language is stronger than perhaps it should be.