Do your best to explain Romans 5

[RDKirk]

It's not that there is a distinction between mankind and "Jews and gentiles". The difference is in what Paul is saying. Is his focus to point out there is no difference between Jews and gentiles when it comes to being under Adam's sin, or is he simply saying all mankind is under Adam's sin. The point of focus is different.

The difference is: You can say: Jews and gentiles will be saved. It's not the same as saying mankind will be saved. Jews and gentiles don't mean all Jews and gentiles. Mankind means all men, everyone.

No, "mankind" does not inherently mean each and every individual unless other context markers make that intention clear. The Greek grammatically can go either way, as for that matter can the English.

From my reading, Paul is not intending in this place "each and every individual" in the context of proving that salvation is available to gentiles as well as Jews.

 

[mark kennedy]

No, "mankind" does not inherently mean each and every individual unless other context markers make that intention clear.

From my reading, Paul is not intending in this place "each and every individual" in the context of proving that salvation is available to gentiles as well as Jews.

Paul is crystal clear, as in Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive whether Jew or Gentile. The fact remains not all are in Christ', you have to receive Christ by faith, Adam's sin you had no choice in.

 

[112358]

-Stories of Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Job. They all have God's actions and what we view as God not acting on anything.
-Genesis 50:20
-Ezekiel 16
-Romans 3:22-24
-The whole life of Jesus is God acting and sometimes 'not acting' (example the rich young ruler: Jesus told him what was and let him go, he didn't try and do more convincing)
- Frankly, the whole of the Bible

Ok. agreed. God is active. He operates according to His will. Is the argument that man does not/cannot operate according to his will also?

 

[Knee V]

Thanks for sharing your understanding. I think everything fits, except v.19. I believe v.19 must be about those who receive Christ. It feels too loose to say that that Paul just means that Jews and gentiles will be made righteous by Christ. It feels like he specifically means the many that has faith in him will be made righteous.

He does mean that, but he means that within the context of Judaizing. I believe that Paul is emphasizing two points: 1) anyone who has faith in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, is made righteous, as opposed to only Jews, and 2) anyone who has faith in Christ, as opposed to those who rely on the ritual observance of the Law of Moses, is made righteous.
(I say that because those two points reoccur throughout Paul's epistles.)

The question I have is also why would Paul use the different words "the many" and "all men" if he means exactly the same thing (Jews and gentiles) ?

I think that this may be a case of missing the forest for the trees. Paul is writing within a very specific context, and he is making a very specific point. If we glean things from this passage that do nothing to advance Paul's over all point, then it may be that we are looking at things from the wrong angle. "All" vs "many" may be a distinction without a difference, and I would argue that that is exactly what it is; that Paul just used two words that, in this context, mean more or less the same thing.

 

[corinth77777]

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Once you receive the Gospel and believe, you are sealed unto the resurrection of life (Ephesians 1:13).

You lost me....for the first passage one becomes a son... And in the next I guess you are saying a sealed person is a born again person...correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Call me Nic]

You lost me....for the first passage one becomes a son... And in the next I guess you are saying a sealed person is a born again person...correct me if I'm wrong...

What's so difficult to understand? Once you believe, you become a son of God (John 1:12). Once you believe, you become sealed (Ephesians 1:13). They're not separate events.

 

[GodsGrace101]

They offered me the Galaxy Jr. At a good discount but silly me I went with a cheap LG. I really don't think we have to worry about the robots taking over, what happens when they start acting like my rouge spell checker?

We call The Terminator!
Can't that spell check thing be turned off??
I have to check too...

 

[mark kennedy]

We call The Terminator!
Can't that spell check thing be turned off??
I have to check too...

It's pretty good sometimes but it does weird things like it did with Kippur. Recently it changed Israel to is real, it rendered the sentence completely meaningless.

 

[corinth77777]

Ok, you like the analogy of a ship, that actually pretty close to one used in Hebrews. It says Christ has passed through the veil, in other words into the Holy of Holies, or the very pretense of God to make atonement. This is where our faith holds like an anchor. This earthly vessel while tossed and turned on the sea of our sojourn here is anchored to the hope we have I'm Christ'. (See Hebrews 6:19) That's what keeps our earthly vessel from smashing against the rocks of the cares of this life or overturned by the storm. That would be consistant with Paul's exortation to set our minds on Christ who is at the right hand of the Father. So, as Paul explains, we died and when Christ who is our live shall appear we will be raised with him in glory. (Col. 3:1-4)

A ship is the perfect analogy for atonement as discussed in Hebrews 6. The is our earthly life and our faith holds like an anchor at the true mercy seat in heaven.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Yes, but not our faith, but His faithfulness....His faithfulness is unwavering....and is the anchor...we have hope in it.....

 

[98cwitr]

IMO, you cannot explain Romans 5 in context without including Romans 6.

 

[RDKirk]

Paul is crystal clear, as in Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive whether Jew or Gentile. The fact remains not all are in Christ', you have to receive Christ by faith, Adam's sin you had no choice in.

Paul is crystal clear in saying that Jews and Gentiles are in the same state with regard to sin and with regard to salvation, which is the only point Paul intends to make in this particular statement.

 

[corinth77777]

What's so difficult to understand? Once you believe, you become a son of God (John 1:12). Once you believe, you become sealed (Ephesians 1:13). They're not separate events.

Well I'm glad it's not difficult for you.
My question is....if a man is to become a child of God ....you are saying that He is? Which means the 2 words mean the same thing [become and is]. But are they? And where does scripture say Because they were sealed until the day of redemption that, this of and by itself means WE are born again?

 

[mark kennedy]

Paul is crystal clear in saying that Jews and Gentiles are in the same state with regard to sin and with regard to salvation, which is the only point Paul intends to make in this particular statement.

Exactly, when he says all are made alive in Christ, he means all who are in Christ. It's a pretty obvious qualifyer.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes, but not our faith, but His faithfulness....His faithfulness is unwavering....and is the anchor...we have hope in it.....

That's true, but he is the author and finisher of our faith. In other words, who do you think made the anchor in the first place?

 

[FineLinen]

The 'who receive' disqualifies 'all' as in everyone. Not all receive Christ. A wide receiver cannot receive a ball unless someone throws it to him.

This why we can get the doctrine of atonement wrong if we don't understand the doctrine of election. They are all intertwined.

To reign with Christ is not what the masses of Christianity know by their experience. That operation is described in the Revelation as "to those who overcome", mentioned in 7 verses. This statement in Romans 5 goes beyond reigning/overcoming by a few, to the mass/ polus made sinners through one single act of disobedience by Adam1, to the astounding work of the Last Adam making the same mass/polus righteous. It is a perfect equation in union with: "as in Adam all/pas die, so in Christ shall all/pas be made alive." Perfect math, perfect equations with the advantage going to the One who draws, drags with power, draws all/pas mankind unto Himself!

 

[FineLinen]

Exactly, when he says all are made alive in Christ, he means all who are in Christ. It's a pretty obvious qualifyer.

You know what it means to be/en Christ. The following then should be easy for you.
"That IN the Name of Jesus every/pas knee shall bow, and every/pas tongue confess">>>>>>>You are Lord to the glory of God the Father. But there is more: All knees, all tongues, in antiphonal worship>>>>>

"in the heavens, in the earth, and under the earth."

In Mexican= every enchilada.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

IMO that meanness of spirit and "you have to believe our special way" intolerance is baked into Calvinism via gnostic supremacism that Calvin picked up from the writings of Augustine, who followed the teachings of Manichaean gnostics for 9 years.

Yes--in fact, when Calvin first started gaining fame and power, his theology was called, "Calvinistic Augustinianism" so similar was it to the theology of Augustine. IMO, the Western Church definitely took a wrong turn at Augustine. The Eastern Church has never held to some of Augustine's tenets.

 

[needhugs]

I haven't listened to the clips, but isn't L. Ray Smith promoting that everyone will be saved in the end? As much as I would love to believe that, it's not what the Bible teaches. If it was so the warnings would be totally unnecesserary, and also so would repentance. No, what God says he really means. We have to repent and believe.

If we want peace in our lives it's not about believing that everyone will be saved, but believing on Christ unto salvation. It's in fellowship with Christ we find peace.

oh the warnings are TOTALLY needed!! and how!! i've been under hebrews 10 punishment for 20 years!! this is called 'judgement' and nobody, even those of us who KNOW (yes it's biblical) that everyone will be saved 'in the end' (ages from now) also know that judgement is very very real, and that 'it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God'
watch the clips... you will see that it is Biblical
and repentance is always needed, otherwise HOW would you change your mind??
and of COURSE you have to believe, silly billy lol... but everyone WILL, every knee shall bow... go listen to Ray's stuff, study to show thyself approved... if you would 'love to believe it'... then go look into it, it's not rocket science.. it's just that actually NO, most WOULDN'T love to believe it.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

This is saying both Jews and Gentiles need salvation, not about the unborn or infants that have no moral awareness, and not speaking of innate stains of sin as Origen erroneously states.

Yes, Eastern Orthodoxy has never endorsed the idea that infants are born with "Original Sin". Augustine led the Western Church to the idea that, without baptism, an infant goes to hell, should he/she die.

 

[sdowney717]

Of course we don’t “choose Him first.” None of us would have any Gospel of salvation if God hadn’t “so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

It is all according to God’s sovereign grace and mercy that He reaches down to save us. The Lamb of God was slain “from the foundation of the earth”, it was always God’s perfect will and plan. So, yes, we are absolutely not born of God without the provision of God in our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

And we are “born of God”, after we turn to Him in faith and believe, not before. No one is born of God apart from faith in the Son.

You can not have faith in the Son except you are first born of God.
I already showed the relevant verses.
All who are natural born are all carnally minded, And all carnally minded are at enmity with God.
The carnal mind it says cannot be submitted to God's law, so it certainly can not believe in Christ when God tells the carnal mind to repent, God's command is just ignored, it is why they are the sons of disobedience.

Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You can NOT choose to be carnal or spiritual, you are what you were born to be, either carnal or spiritual, there is no inbetween state of existence.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

IF YOU LIVE according to the SPIRIT, than means God made you born of God so that you have eternal life, this is not some kind of personal choice to make, to either at one moment be carnally minded or at another moment spiritually minded.

If you live according to the FLESH, well your dead, spiritually dead and not in Christ.. People have turned this passage into some kind of daily personal decision they can make, which is also being double minded, and an impossibility, since you are either born of God or not.