Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

[lesliedellow]

In my opinion a significant percentage of the scientific community are guilty of obscurantism when it comes to objectively

Apart from classifying humans as belonging to the family of the great apes, what might "their" view of humans be?

 

[AV1611VET]

Leviticus 16:10 to be exact.... in the original Hebrew.

Where the original Hebrew disagrees with the KJB, the original Hebrew is wrong.

"but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel."(Leviticus 16:10RSV)

Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Who stuck "to Aza'zel" in there?

The Book of Enoch mentions his name many times.

Good for the Book of Enoch.

I don't recognize the Book of Enoch as authoritative.

You can -- but I don't.

He was king of the 208 Watchers who fell because of the daughters of men.

Nice.

 

[AV1611VET]

I highly recommend it.....

If you haven't figured it out already, I'm a KJVO of the Peter S Ruckman & Gail A Riplinger persuasion.

 

[DennisTate]

Where the original Hebrew disagrees with the KJB, the original Hebrew is wrong.

Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Who stuck "to Aza'zel" in there?

Good for the Book of Enoch.

I don't recognize the Book of Enoch as authoritative.

You can -- but I don't.

Nice.

Interesting.... .my view of many of these doctrinal disagreements within Christianity is that God is using them to test us.... .to see if we will respect each other in spite of those different ideas.

My old church had teachings about other denominations that either was...... an example of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit".... .or it was very close.

Frankly... .even the differences between Atheists and Theists is another test that we might just barely pass..... .or fail miserably at...... or we might get an A?!

 

[lesliedellow]

Where the original Hebrew disagrees with the KJB, the original Hebrew is wrong.

Even you do not believe that.

 

[AV1611VET]

Even you do not believe that.

I beg your pardon?

 

[DennisTate]

Where the original Hebrew disagrees with the KJB, the original Hebrew is wrong.

Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Who stuck "to Aza'zel" in there?

Good for the Book of Enoch.

I don't recognize the Book of Enoch as authoritative.

You can -- but I don't.

Nice.

I can think of at least one particular instance that would cause you to go in that direction.

The issue of Red Sea vs Sea of Reeds, (the original Hebrew apparently is Yom Suph, literally... the Sea of Reeds).

The online footage of chariot wheels in the Red Sea........
would indicate that Red Sea... .could actually turn out to be
the more accurate understanding of those words.......
perhaps due to a later misunderstanding of what the Sea of Reeds could truly mean.

 

[lesliedellow]

I beg your pardon?

Even you do not believe that.

 

[CrystalDragon]

But. Satan. Was. Lucifer. At. One. Time.

Show me WHERE it says that. There is NOTHING to indicate that Lucifer was anything other than the King of Babylon in a proverb. The only reason you or anyone else think otherwise is because you had it drilled into your head and don't read Isaiah 14.

 

[CrystalDragon]

You could be right.... but Lucifer is A Satan, not necessarily The Satan.....
Azazel is another important fallen angel / Watcher that is mentioned in scripture.......

For all I know... Azazel could be more powerful than Lucifer but... according to the Book of Enoch it seems that Azazel and the Watchers / sons of G-d, did not fall until after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Why's Enoch not part of the Bible though? Since it's not should we not count it?

 

[DennisTate]

Why's Enoch not part of the Bible though? Since it's not should we not count it?

It was actually part of the Christian canon for roughly four centuries.

It is kind of big so it got pushed out of the Bible in favour of The Apocalypse / Revelations at the time that Pope Jerome canonized the Christian scriptures.

 

[CrystalDragon]

It was actually part of the Christian canon for roughly four centuries.

It is kind of big so it got pushed out of the Bible in favour of The Apocalypse / Revelations at the time that Pope Jerome canonized the Christian scriptures.

If that was Then shouldn't we discount Revelation completely and put Enoch back in? Isn't to do otherwise spreading misinformation and having people constantly try to predict the end of the world or the second coming?

 

[SBC]

Lucifer. Is. Not. Satan. And. Never. Was.

I have lost count of how many times I've had to correct people on that who have clearly only read select verses of Isaiah 14 and hold onto preconceived notions.

It is not a matter of people reading "select" verses and trusting what Scripture reveals.

There is ONLY ONE supreme Power who IS Himself POWER;
who is thee Lord God Almighty.

All other things are CREATED, and given POWER, by and from thee Lord God Almighty.

It is not a one liner in Scripture, but rather multiple Scriptures that REVEAL "ONE" created thing - that was given GREAT Power - used his RECEIVED POWER to "stand against God".

The ONE - in receipt of such Great Power (from God) has been identified -
called by a Name, descriptions, attributes.

And the most important revelation is He was CAST OUT and DOWN from Heaven.

And one who was called Lucifer WAS CAST OUT and DOWN from Heaven.

That ONLY applies to ONE given Great Power, by and from our Great Lord God Almighty.

Isa 14

[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

It is clearly Lucifer WHO decided HE would have a throne ABOVE GOD.
And clearly Lucifer IS A LIAR and was CAST DOWN to the earth.
And clearly Lucifer DID NOT LOSE HIS POWER - But He DID LOSE his NAME.

Not news men lose their names and they become called by something else.
Abram lost his name - and became called Abraham.
Jacob lost his name - and became called Israel.

Lucifer lost his name - and became called Satan, the Devil, a Serpent, Evil, god of this world, among other things - but yet we know;

Christ Jesus ie the POWER of God - superseded Satan's great Power - and that Satan NO LONGER has the POWER OVER DEATH.

And we know- ALL of Satan's Power shall be overcome and He shall be brought DOWN further from the earth's surface TO the pits of Hell, totaling removing his power FROM affecting the earth and the people thereof.

I have lost count of how many times I've had to correct people

So, what is YOUR Scriptural basis in fact that reveals Lucifer did not become identified as Satan?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[CrystalDragon]

It is not a matter of people reading "select" verses and trusting what Scripture reveals.

There is ONLY ONE supreme Power who IS Himself POWER;
who is thee Lord God Almighty.

All other things are CREATED, and given POWER, by and from thee Lord God Almighty.

It is not a one liner in Scripture, but rather multiple Scriptures that REVEAL "ONE" created thing - that was given GREAT Power - used his RECEIVED POWER to "stand against God".

The ONE - in receipt of such Great Power (from God) has been identified -
called by a Name, descriptions, attributes.

And the most important revelation is He was CAST OUT and DOWN from Heaven.

And one who was called Lucifer WAS CAST OUT and DOWN from Heaven.

That ONLY applies to ONE given Great Power, by and from our Great Lord God Almighty.

Isa 14

[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

It is clearly Lucifer WHO decided HE would have a throne ABOVE GOD.
And clearly Lucifer IS A LIAR and was CAST DOWN to the earth.
And clearly Lucifer DID NOT LOSE HIS POWER - But He DID LOSE his NAME.

Not news men lose their names and they become called by something else.
Abram lost his name - and became called Abraham.
Jacob lost his name - and became called Israel.

Lucifer lost his name - and became called Satan, the Devil, a Serpent, Evil, god of this world, among other things - but yet we know;

Christ Jesus ie the POWER of God - superseded Satan's great Power - and that Satan NO LONGER has the POWER OVER DEATH.

And we know- ALL of Satan's Power shall be overcome and He shall be brought DOWN further from the earth's surface TO the pits of Hell, totaling removing his power FROM affecting the earth and the people thereof.



So, what is YOUR Scriptural basis in fact that reveals Lucifer did not become identified as Satan?

God Bless,
SBC

There you are cherrypicking again.

Isaiah 14:12-15 is the selection of verses that everyone has quoted as a whisper-down-the-lane thing who claim they know what it means because someone told them what it means. It's not about Satan AT ALL. If you actually read the surrounding verses, ALL of them, and not just verses 12-15 that are quoted so much and so misinformed that I'm getting tired of having to explain it...

1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

If you actually read the verses and not just regurgitate the oft-quoted ones, it's clear that it was all a proverb taken up against a Babylonian king ("Morning Star" was used by the way for anyone who had a high position, including Pharaoh and Jesus himself). The king was arrogant and saw him as being greater than everyone else, and mistreated his people, but he would soon be out of power and be seen as no more than the flawed arrogant human that he was.

"Lucifer" is just a proverb-title meaning "Morning Star" given to a king of Babylon. Not Satan. Not a fallen angel. Not a rebellious spirit. Nothing supernatural. Nothing more or less than an arrogant king who saw himself as greater than anyone else.

 

[AV1611VET]

If you actually read the verses and not just regurgitate the oft-quoted ones, it's clear that it was all a proverb taken up against a Babylonian king ("Morning Star" was used by the way for anyone who had a high position, including Pharaoh and Jesus himself).

Matthew 16:23a But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan:

Was Jesus calling Peter "Satan"? or was Jesus addressing Satan in Peter?

 

[lesliedellow]

It was actually part of the Christian canon for roughly four centuries.

It is kind of big so it got pushed out of the Bible in favour of The Apocalypse / Revelations at the time that Pope Jerome canonized the Christian scriptures.

Enoch was never part of the Hebrew scriptures and never part of the Septuagint. The test of canonicity for the New Testament was whether a book was believed to have been written by an apostle or a close associate of an apostle.

Enoch was never part of the Christian scriptures.

 

[DennisTate]

Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?<----OP

It already IS "sadly" being taught in Universities and Schools.

I have NO Issue with University students, (who pay their OWN tuition) or Private Schools (who pay their OWN tuition) to learn about Intelligent Design as an OPTION in conflict with Gods Creation.

I have NO Issue with EXTRA Curricular programs - within the Public School System - for groups of students who want to form and participate in CLUBS - for theater ACTING - for sports SUPPORTERS - for Photography - etc. and Including;
for Creationism - for Intelligent Design -

And absolutely ANY parent who sends their child off to a Public schools SHOULD have a reasonable expectation their child will be TAUGHT a MAINSTREAM education in:
the Basics of Reading, Writing, Math, English, History, and Proven Science.

The EXTRAS - should be by CHOICE, "WITH" the parents Knowledge and Permission for their child to participate.

AFTER a child has been INTRODUCED to a TOPIC, "THEY" and "THEIR PARENTS" can decide to further the "INTRODUCTION" to become a Focused and Specific topic to be discussed and taught and believed.

People WHO DECIDE Creationism IS a topic "THEY" wish to focus on and believe -
Attend Seminaries - Churches - and receive TEACHING specific to THAT belief.

People WHO DECIDE Intelligent Design IS a topic "THEY" wish to focus on and believe -
Can ATTEND __________ Whoops - What is their Specific facilities called?

Why are they INVADING public schools and universities ?
Where are "their" specific facilities?

God Bless,
SBC

Would you like to see Effective...... or Ineffective
anti-suicide prevention methods applied for our young people?

(Yes... that is a rhetorical question).

I am almost certain that it was in his book, Transformed By The Light, Dr. Melvin Morse
where I read about a study done on people who had recently attempted suicide.........

One group was simply given near death experience accounts to read.......

Zero people from that group attempted suicide again during the duration of the study......

Dr. Morse felt that NDE accounts had the potential to revolutionize the treatment for people who are suicidal.

Why?

His guess was that giving people a reason to believe that some logical plan is being worked out in their lives...... can bring their mood up above the level where they attempt suicide.........

I wonder could a similar treatment reduce the tendency to drown our sorrows and anger in drugs and alcohol????????????

 

[lesliedellow]

[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

You could always have started reading at verse 4, which makes it as plain as it could possibly be that the verses which follow refer to the King of Babylon.

 

[DennisTate]

Enoch was never part of the Hebrew scriptures and never part of the Septuagint. The test of canonicity for the New Testament was whether a book was believed to have been written by an apostle or a close associate of an apostle.

Enoch was never part of the Christian scriptures.

The Book of Enoch is quite ancient..... .at least centuries before the time of the Disciples..... at least there are a lot of scholars who think so. The Dead Sea Scrolls research will probably eventually give us a better idea of how old it really is.........

The Apostle Jude obviously felt it was quotable......

 

[Monk Brendan]

Why can't we teach people about ID?

I have no problem with ID. I believe it myself. But if you want to have ID taught in schools, then you either have to get a majority of people in each state to change the law saying that Darwin MUST be taught, or you must have enough money to build schools all around the country that will teach ID (but they will still have to teach Darwin--that's the law). Either way, it will beggar all of the churches, all of the rich donors, etc. I do not have that money. Do you?