Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

[DennisTate]

Revelation tells me that the fall of Lucifer and his angels took place in the Church Age. Job and 1st Kings and 2nd Chronicles still give Satan a place in heaven.

Or..... Lucifer and his angels go through more than one fall........

 

[DennisTate]

You are trying to tie together Earth's chronology with that of heaven. Remember Revelation also talks about the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world" while we know that according to OUR time, the crucifiction took place in the 30-35 ad time frame.

Revelation 13:8 kjv
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
​

BTW - the devil STILL has a place in heaven. (on occasion) Just as he had to personally petition our Lord to "sift [Peter] like wheat," he has to petition Him to harass us as well.

That verse raises a fascinating question.......
did the fall of Lucifer and his one third of the angels cause The Ancient of Days the Father to know that it would now be necessary to send the Word / Logos to fully mind meld with Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus and set in motion the total swallowing of all the death and suffering set in motion by the choice of Eve and Adam to take of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Could the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..... be at least somewhat like a PROGRAM... that Eve and Adam had the freedom to choose to NOT put on their computer / minds / hearts...... but now like most computers that are sold today..... lots of programs are already on there due to decisions made years or decades in the past?????

Pastor Rick Joyner had a fascinating visionary dream of heaven back in 1995 in which he was given a message from the Patriarch Adam.

This is so brilliantly written that I have to think that either Rick Joyner is one of the most creative writers on earth or......... he had an actual visionary dream of heaven in which he was shown insights that he never could have imagined himself.

You can view the story in posts #1 and #4 here.....

A message from Adam to all of humanity as given to Pastor Rick Joyner!

 

[Apex]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........

Some universities already teach ID. Liberty University, a regionally accredited college, requires all students to take a introductory-level creation course. The key is it is not labeled a "science" class. It is instead viewed as a "creation studies" class.

 

[Instrument150]

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

Denise you are very wise thank you. My heart has yearned for a scripture of this nature. I have a really really really smart and fun plan and this helps so much, you don't even know.

 

[DennisTate]

Some universities already teach ID. Liberty University, a regionally accredited college, requires all students to take a introductory-level creation course. The key is it is not labeled a "science" class. It is instead viewed as a "creation studies" class.

Thank you for that encouraging and useful information. I kind of suspected that......
but I do feel that the Bride of Messiah the Church .... .needs to prepare for a shift in many
important ways.

Allowing in our Theology ........ for God to be moved emotionally...... and saddened..... and to at least some degree somewhat surprised.......(although that may not be the best word for it)..... .as God watched Lucifer and his one third of the angels at first gradually, step by step fall.............and then some rapid throwing down kind of falls .....
sets the stage for our belief in a God who sets in motion new time lines........
that take us generally closer and closer to the salvation of more and more and more people.......
who may have been lost in other time lines...........

This can give us an answer for many troubling Theological questions........
that can assist the Bride of Messiah to usher in the world shown to near death experiencer Howard Storm for the year 2185.... but could that astonishing world be here by the year 2100 in our time line??????

What Howard was shown sure fits with many verses about the Millennium or Era of Moshiach / Messiah in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets.


Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.



The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.



And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.



There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.



What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.



People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.



Animals lived with people, in harmony.

 

[DennisTate]

Denise you are very wise thank you. My heart has yearned for a scripture of this nature. I have a really really really smart and fun plan and this helps so much, you don't even know.

I believe that all of us are being led to play out our role in a paradigm shift that will be so mind boggling............ that.......

Exo 7:3

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signsand my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Isa 8:18

Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Exodus 34:10

¶
And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee."

IF... the time is coming when the Exodus from Egypt will NOT be referred to much at all but instead attention will be on the Exodus from the NORTH......... Then........
that covenant to do signs and wonders must refer to these latter days as well....... doesn't it?


Do you believe a massive Holy Spirit tsunami is coming?


Jeremiah 16:14

¶
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

 

[DennisTate]

And you are removing faith in the process. "Without faith it is impossible to please HIM..."

If...... you think it is impossible to have faith in a God..... who can be surprised......
at least somewhat by an event...... (such as the fall of Lucifer and one third of the angels with him)... then........... perhaps you are viewing faith in too narrow a manner...........

I've been researching evidence for a God who can be somewhat surprised.......
but always already knows an answer to those surprises when they do come........

That may be why prophecies are written in such a way that they seem to fit with whatever happens.... even if it is so different than what somebody who seemed to be a genuine prophet predicted in the past.........

All of these statements fit both with scriptures... as well as with Multiverse Theory:

3. The future is not fixed and can change

During Karen Schaeffer's NDE, she was shown her children's future as it would exist if she decided to remain in the light. Because she decided to return, the future she was shown did not happen. This suggests that the future is always changing from moment to moment based upon our current actions and decisions. This principle supports quantum mechanic principles.

One of Margot Grey's NDE research subjects stated:


"During my experience ... I was also shown events that are likely to happen in the near future, but was made to understand that nothing is absolutely fixed and that everything depends on how we choose to use our own free will, that even those events that are already predestined can be changed or modified by a change in our own way of relating to them." (Grey, 1985, p. 123)

NDE experiencer Howard Storm was given information on how the future is not fixed:


"We have free will. If we change the way we are, then we can change the future which they showed me. They showed me a view of the future, at the time of my experience, based upon how we in the United States were behaving at that time. It was a future in which a massive worldwide depression would occur. If we were to change our behavior, however, then the future would be different." (Howard Storm)

Howard Storm was also told how a single person can change the world:


"All it takes to make a change was one person. One person, trying, and then because of that, another person changing for the better. They said that the only way to change the world was to begin with one person. One will become two, which will become three, and so on. That's the only way to affect a major change" (Howard Storm)

During Ricky Randolph's NDE, he was told virtually the same thing:


"You must return and help others to change by changing your life!" (Ricky Randolph)

Dannion Brinkley was told how the future is conditional upon human beings:


"If you follow what you have been taught and keep living the same way you have lived the last thirty years, all of this will surely be upon you. If you change, you can avoid the coming war. If you follow this dogma, the world by the year 2004 will not be the same one you now know. But it can still be changed and you can help change it." (Dannion Brinkley)


Brinkley was also told that the future is not cast in stone:


"The flow of human events can be changed, but first people have to know what they are." (Dannion Brinkley)


Brinkley also gives the following advice on how people can change the world:


"The quickest way to change the world is to be of service to others. Show that your love can make a difference in the lives of people and thereby someone else's love can make a difference in your life. By each of us doing that and working together we change the world one inner person at a time." (Dannion Brinkley)

The Future and the Near-Death Experience
(near-death .com)

 

[DennisTate]

"God always knew everything about everything....and has no need to learn."

Let's look at this from another angle........
is God powerful enough to set in motion more than one time line.......
in which world events work out differently than they did in other time lines?

Is God powerful enough to initiate applied Multiverse Theory or Alternate time lines.... as Hollywood has dealt with so often in movies?

Near death experiencer Dannion Brinkley was shown a fulfillment of parts of the Book of Revelation...... as well as the time line for those events, during his near death experience in 1975.

Although some of those events obviously DID NOT come to pass yet in our time line..... is it possible that we are part of a new time line where those events have been delayed and delayed and delayed in hopes that they could even not even have to happen??????

Dannion Brinkley:

BOX 12: Technology & Virus

The 11th box was gone & I was into the 12th box. Its visions addressed an important event in the distant future, the decade of the 90's (remember, this was 1975), when many of the great changes would take place. In this box, I watched as a biological engineer from the Middle East found a way to alter DNA & create a biological virus that would be used in the manufacture of computer chips. This discovery allowed for huge strides in science & technology. Japan, China, & other countries of the Pacific Rim experienced boom times as a result of this discovery & became powers of incredible magnitude. Computer chips produced from this process found their way into virtually every form of technology, from cars & airplanes to vacuum cleaners & blenders.

Before the turn of the century, this man was among the richest in the world, so rich that he had a stranglehold on the world economy. Still the world welcomed him, since the computer chips he had designed somehow put the world on an even keel. Gradually, he succumbed to his own power. He began to think of himself as a deity & insisted on greater control of the world. With that extra control, he began to rule the world.

His method of rule was unique. Everyone in the world was mandated by law to have one of his computer chips inserted underneath his or her skin. This chip contained all of an individual's personal information. If a government agency wanted to know something, all it had to do was scan your chip with a special device. By doing so, it could discover everything about you, from where you worked & lived to your medical records & even what kind of illnesses you might get in the future.

There was an even more sinister side to this chip. A person's lifetime could be limited by programming this chip to dissolve & kill him with the viral substance it was made from. Lifetimes were controlled like this to avoid the cost that growing old places on the government. It was also used as a means of eliminating people with chronic illnesses that put a drain on the medical system. People who refused to have chips implanted in their bodies roamed as outcasts. They could not be employed & were denied government services.

This is in chapter 5 of Saved By The Light......
one choice ahead of us is to read this..... and then write off Dannion Brinkley as a false prophet because these events obviously did NOT happen on the schedule that he was shown.........

My suspicion is that Dannion.... was shown events that may have already happened before his near death experience..... .then Dannion goes and decides to write about what he saw.....and travels and teaches about this........ and begins The Twilight Brigade to visit veterans in their final months, weeks, days and hours........ and perhaps that negative fulfillment of the mark of the beast has been delayed and delayed and delayed and delayed in our time line?????

This is actually worth thinking about.........

 

[Kit Sigmon]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

Matthew 5:25 be about brothers (believers)being involved in quarrels/wrongs/ taking one another to court(lawsuits) etc... these matters are to be resolved
quickly and within the body(church)...so believers aren't going to court where
unbelievers witness such conduct amongst children of God (who are to
be Christ's Ambassadors.)
Believers who carry on in such manner aren't being godly witnesses, they are causing God to be mocked.

Where you find in the Bible our Lord trying to find some way to be in agreement with the devil(adversary)? Where do you find the Lord trying
to find some way to be in agreement with those particular Pharisees who continually rejected and plotted against him?


In chapter six of 1 Corinthians...Paul says:
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with
eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of
the intelligent I will frustrate."
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(verses 17 to 19)

 

[DennisTate]

The key to these different time lines seems to be the amount of the Holy Spirit that is poured out on the Bride of Messiah....... as well as on......ALL FLESH?!


Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

Howard Storm's light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.

 

[HereIStand]

It should at least be part of the classroom discussion, especially at the college level.

 

[DennisTate]

Matthew 5:25 be about brothers (believers)being involved in quarrels/wrongs/ taking one another to court(lawsuits) etc... these matters are to be resolved
quickly and within the body(church)...so believers aren't going to court where
unbelievers witness such conduct amongst children of God (who are to
be Christ's Ambassadors.)
Believers who carry on in such manner aren't being godly witnesses, they are causing God to be mocked.

Where you find in the Bible our Lord trying to find some way to be in agreement with the devil(adversary)? Where do you find the Lord trying
to find some way to be in agreement with those particular Pharisees who continually rejected and plotted against him?


In chapter six of 1 Corinthians...Paul says:
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with
eloquent words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of
the intelligent I will frustrate."
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(verses 17 to 19)

Rest assured that Rabbinic Jewish teachers would say something similar to that as they convinced younger Jews to reject the Messianic Jewish movement that had grown to perhaps number near 400,000 people by the time of the Bar Kochba Revolt.

There is a time and a place to apply what you quote in one way... and there are time to apply that very differently......

Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

 

[DennisTate]

It should at least be part of the classroom discussion, especially at the college level.

Yes.... it really should....... and even Theological Seminaries that are already teaching some variations of Intelligent Design are now faced with new information on this that can make scriptures more appealing and logical to the minds of millions and billions of people.

Jeremiah 23:20

The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly."

Now I could be guilty of reading too much into this verse but...... the way that this has been translated into English leaves me with the feeling that the wrath of the Ancient of Days the Father, the Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus could not be fully understood five or three centuries ago..... but will be understood perfectly in our time.... and in the not too distant future.

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] that which Christ spoke, He is telling us to let them have their way, for it in context of the Lord instructing us to take the wrong upon ourselves (the law of Christ). As for so-called intelligent design it would be better for those that name the Name of Christ to learn not to think above that which is written, to avoid exaggeration and over-estimation. As for unbelievers: believers should have nothing in common with them, for we are never to be equally joined together, seeing that righteousness has no fellowship whatsoever with unrighteousness, neither does light have any communion with darkness; so if we were to begin to say we have in common, then it is us who are to blame for compromise.

 

[jax5434]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

It is perfectly possible to teach biology factually without promoting any philosophy regarding it. So teach biology as science and offer classes on the Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design in the philosophy departments where they belong.
God Bless
Jax

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Your poll is deeply flawed by having several no votes and only one yes vote.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

That's exactly what I don't want. We've got enough heresy in the forums without exporting it to the already wayward schools. A better solution would be to teach enough critical thinking, and to analyze the limits of science. When it gets into things that don't normally happen, then it goes off the rails. Other such things include:
The origin of everything.
The end of everything.
The existence of things outside of our universe.
Miracles.
The human soul, and other absolutely unique things
The afterlife.
Anything of a certain kind that has only happened once (science requires repeatability).
Anything that cannot be controlled for the sake of experiment.
The causes of physical and other universal laws.
The change of physical laws, if it ever happened.
Processes that required enormous lengths of time (because they assume uniform conditions during an unknown period).
Subjective experience.
The first cause.
The last effect.

My only gripe against science education is that the teachers seem completely fogged on the difference between science and myth. Without employing actual scientific method, they construct an explanation that uses evidence, and even some high-tech evidence, but this strategy for explaining things is really no different from the way every other myth has ever been created. I'm not so much ashamed of the theistic evolutionist for butchering Christianity as I am ashamed of him for butchering science.

 

[Creech]

To not teach an inherent spiritual nature of the world is to fail to educate children, and presenting what is observed by us from the innate spiritual meaning is withholding truth to children.

Truth cannot be separated, as truth is truth.

 

[lesliedellow]

No. Certainly not in the faculty of science, and probably not in divinity school - except perhaps in the form of natural theology.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Is intelligent design the real battle you want to fight? Instead of that, why not speak about the Gospel, and pray, pray, pray.

 

[Winken]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

Huh? Agree? Hello?