Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

[ladodgers6]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

Please explain, "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

 

[ladodgers6]

Is intelligent design the real battle you want to fight? Instead of that, why not speak about the Gospel, and pray, pray, pray.

Why can't we teach people about ID?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

I wan't Christianity taught in schools, not a nameless, faceless, impersonal "designer".

 

[DennisTate]

Your poll is deeply flawed by having several no votes and only one yes vote.



That's exactly what I don't want. We've got enough heresy in the forums without exporting it to the already wayward schools. A better solution would be to teach enough critical thinking, and to analyze the limits of science. When it gets into things that don't normally happen, then it goes off the rails. Other such things include:
The origin of everything.
The end of everything.
The existence of things outside of our universe.
Miracles.
The human soul, and other absolutely unique things
The afterlife.
Anything of a certain kind that has only happened once (science requires repeatability).
Anything that cannot be controlled for the sake of experiment.
The causes of physical and other universal laws.
The change of physical laws, if it ever happened.
Processes that required enormous lengths of time (because they assume uniform conditions during an unknown period).
Subjective experience.
The first cause.
The last effect.

My only gripe against science education is that the teachers seem completely fogged on the difference between science and myth. Without employing actual scientific method, they construct an explanation that uses evidence, and even some high-tech evidence, but this strategy for explaining things is really no different from the way every other myth has ever been created. I'm not so much ashamed of the theistic evolutionist for butchering Christianity as I am ashamed of him for butchering science.

In the poll there area actually three No answers..... and only one yes answer. All three no's count together but some are even stronger no's than others.
.........


If I am not mistaken it was in the book Transformed By The Light by Melvin Morse M. D. where a study was referred to where near death experience accounts were given to people who had already attempted suicide.

Zero people from the group given NDE accounts to read attempted suicide again during the duration of that study.

This is rather impressive evidence that the rate of suicide among our young people could be reduced if they were given a better explanation for what is going on here than what Richard Dawkins Ph. D. and his minions can offer.

I would like to see young people given an explanation that make the NDE of young Colton Burpo quite logical, which it actually is!

.........

 

[DennisTate]

Why can't we teach people about ID?

Here is a very simple explanation for how we could do this:


The magnitude of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy X The Law of Complexity Consciousness = The Evolution of Intelligence in ETERNITY in the past. (It is illogical to confine Evolution to less than 4.5 billion years, (the age of the earth)/ (A Theistic version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe / Multiverse which would be quite a contrast from the Atheistic / Agnostic version of it that Stephen Hawking Ph. D. gives in chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe).

........

"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)

X

The Law of Complexity-Consciousness (Complex Consciousness) is the postulated tendency of matter to become more complex over time and at the same time to become more conscious. The law was first formulated by Jesuit priest and paleontologist Pierre Teilhard de Chardin in his 1955 work The Phenomenon of Man.[1]

Teilhard holds that at all times and everywhere, matter is endeavoring to complexify upon itself, as observed in the evolutionary history of the Earth. Matter complexified from inanimate matter, to plant life, to animal life, to human life. Or, from the geosphere, to the biosphere, to the noosphere (of which humans represented, because of their possession of a consciousness which reflects upon themselves). As evolution rises through the geosphere, biosphere, and noosphere, matter continues to rise in a continual increase of both complexity and consciousness.

=

A Theistic Version of The Cyclic Model of the Universe / Multiverse.

 

[DennisTate]

Based on the results of the poll so far it is not going to be easy to convince many leaders in Christianity to take seriously some fascinating personal testimony on a more Theistic Version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe from former Atheist Mellen Benedict that I gave in post #6.

 

[DennisTate]

It is perfectly possible to teach biology factually without promoting any philosophy regarding it. So teach biology as science and offer classes on the Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design in the philosophy departments where they belong.
God Bless
Jax

That is definitely a good idea.

It was in Grade 2 or perhaps Grade 3 when I first heard an Atheistic version of the Evolutionary Theory taught and I almost immediately began to call myself an Atheist, (1967 or 1968).

I did not even think much about theology again until I was about thirteen when I heard televangelist Garner Ted Armstrong do a good job of refuting Evolutionary Theory on one of his broadcasts.

I had been rather offended by a hellfire and brimstone sermon a couple of years before I first heard Evolutionary Theory taught so I was ready to give up on God for some important years of my life. I was also all set up to accept the very flawed "soul sleep" theory until the near death experience account of Dr. George Ritchie caused me to look at other relevant scriptures differently.

 

[DennisTate]

Huh? Agree? Hello?

Have you seen the movie "Heaven is for Real?"

I read the book and saw the movie and consider Mr. Colton Burpo an exceptionally credible witness.

Tens of thousands of people are beginning to take the Bible more seriously after seeing that movie. One part of the book or movie that may offend many Christians is that Colton reports meeting animals in heaven................ if we humans are made in the image of the Elohim..... why could not animals be made in the image of certain types of angels?

For example.... the Psalms reports that Messiah will return riding on a cherub.

The book of Revelation reports Messiah returning riding on a white horse.

Could some types of cherubs look like horses? Could some look like the legendary Pegasus?


Psalms 18:10

And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind."


Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

[DennisTate]

[for me anyway] that which Christ spoke, He is telling us to let them have their way, for it in context of the Lord instructing us to take the wrong upon ourselves (the law of Christ). As for so-called intelligent design it would be better for those that name the Name of Christ to learn not to think above that which is written, to avoid exaggeration and over-estimation. As for unbelievers: believers should have nothing in common with them, for we are never to be equally joined together, seeing that righteousness has no fellowship whatsoever with unrighteousness, neither does light have any communion with darkness; so if we were to begin to say we have in common, then it is us who are to blame for compromise.

But if unbelievers happen to be thirty or forty percent correct in their ideas on a topic we have a responsibility to use our metaphorical swords accurately..... and give them credit for the parts of their ideas that could well be accurate.

We also need to be sure that we do not take statements in the Bible and use them to Nail Down other scriptures in a way that is illogical. Or... to use those nailed down scriptures to become offended by accurate testimonies that God has put in our paths to wake us up.

The Soul Sleep teaching that I had been taught in 1972 - 1989 was so ingrained in my thinking that I misunderstood many important scriptures until 1990 when I began to research near death experience accounts.

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

 

[DennisTate]

To not teach an inherent spiritual nature of the world is to fail to educate children, and presenting what is observed by us from the innate spiritual meaning is withholding truth to children.

Truth cannot be separated, as truth is truth.

So true.... and during those years when I called myself an Atheist (7 or 8 - 12 )........ I actually influenced some of my classmates toward Atheism and they are still there over forty years later.

 

[DennisTate]

Is intelligent design the real battle you want to fight? Instead of that, why not speak about the Gospel, and pray, pray, pray.

You could well be onto something with that........

Word has it that there are 4.3 TRILLION USA Petro Dollars out there floating around.

Some people are calling for them to be dumped on the markets to devalue the USA Dollar.

I believe that we are all set up for those funds to be diverted to the Bride of Messiah for a massive push at this time that will come to be known as the Great Awakening.

Pastor Shane Warren shared a visionary dream on the Sid Roth program back in 2012 in which he was shown that the time was coming when governments would come to the church......... for assistance with problems that governments had no idea how to begin to address.

Could it be that soon the best schools... the most well funded..... will be backed up by churches again?????


North American churches should each have their own currency!

 

[DennisTate]

No. Certainly not in the faculty of science, and probably not in divinity school - except perhaps in the form of natural theology.

Thank you for expressing your strong opinion on this........
One department that could get into this is the Economics Departments at universities........

The idea that seems to be in the minds of many of us Theists that God did very little in four dimensional space time until much less than a hundred thousand years ago......... is setting us up to place an astonishingly LOW VALUATION on human life..... on our family members.... our friends.... our pets...... the resources that we do have available to us.........

A more Theistic Version of Evolutionary Theory has massive implications for the government budgets of all nations.....

Is flawed central banking policy at the heart of the pro-life issue?

We really need to line up our valuation of human life more so with the value that God places on our lives........ and the lives of our families and friends...... and even on the lives of our pets.

Jonah 4:11

"And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?"


Again we go back to......

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

 

[CrystalDragon]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

Lucifer is not Satan. And there's nothing about other Angels fallibg. Lucifer was just a name used for a Babylonian king and nothing more. It's directly stated if you read ALL of Isaiah 14 and don't just cherrypick verses 12-15 that everyone seems to focus on.

 

[DennisTate]

This assertion can certainly assist to generate some debate.


Wave Theory and Gender: Why Sex

"Pulling and gravitation, which resemble basic feminine traits, are the dominant properties of the magnetic loop. Consequently, magnetic loops have a capacity for storing energy and act to maintain the structural integrity of the entire wave formation. The electronic/energetic loop consists of expanding properties that disperse energetic matter that “disappears” into space. This is synonymous with masculine characteristics." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you want to see Intelligent Design taught in universities and schools?

No.

Intelligent Design is a joke.

Creationism should be taught instead.

 

[DennisTate]

Lucifer is not Satan. And there's nothing about other Angels fallibg. Lucifer was just a name used for a Babylonian king and nothing more. It's directly stated if you read ALL of Isaiah 14 and don't just cherrypick verses 12-15 that everyone seems to focus on.

If you are correct... then I already have a good idea which side of this conflict you will probably eventually end up on:

The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

The Book of Enoch that was part of Christian canon for over four centuries or so .... ......elaborates on how sons of G-d, the Watchers..... .also fell....... and took wives of the daughters of men..... had children who were giants with voracious appetites who eventually decided that humans made a good source of food.

Lucifer is not the only Satan...... but Isaiah combined with the near death experience of Dr. Richard Eby indicates that he may have been the first Covering Cherub to fall.

If.... the phrase........"restore all things" is meant to be understood as an absolute.......
then I suspect that Lucifer may turn out to be thinking far more like Stanley Milgram Ph. D. than many of his minions would care to imagine......

Matthew 17:11

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things."

I do have a discussion going on that theme.......


Yom Kippur/The Rapture connection?!

 

[DennisTate]

No.

Intelligent Design is a joke.

Creationism should be taught instead.

You could be onto something AV1611VET.....but in order to assist President Trump's new Secretary of Education we can assist her more if we get the most useful wording for this..........

 

[AV1611VET]

You could be onto something AV1611VET.....but in order to assist President Trump's new Secretary of Education we can assist her more if we get the most useful wording for this..........

Sure thing:

Teach a literal six-day creation as spelled out in Genesis 1 of the King James Bible.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I certainly want ID taught in universities and schools but.........
it seems to me that we Christians need to apply this advice before it
can happen:

Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

What I believe Messiah Yeshua - Jesus means by this is...... agree with our opponents to the degree that our adversaries are perhaps correct...... or at least could be correct..... because there is so much information that each of us cannot possibly know enough about to be dogmatic on all subjects.

An Ancient of Days the Father, an Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit and Seven or fourteen Elohim led by the Word / Logos, who made Adam and Eve in their image....... may be first and foremost scientists, composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.... according to String Theory........ who existed from eternity in the past.

If... in a sense God planned and choreographed an essentially infinite number of Big Bang or Big Flash events...... over eternity in the past.......... then perhaps before creating our ancestors Adam and Eve... maybe God got better and better and better at creation?

Before the creation of Adam and Eve it seem that Lucifer and one third of the angels had already fallen.

So..... our understanding of this statement could help to put a form of Intelligent Design back into schools........... "GOD EVOLVED BUT ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED."

This is my attempt to agree with our Agnostic and Atheistic adversaries.... to at least some degree.

Matthew 5:25 is talking about reconciling your differences with your adversaries. It's not saying that we should agree with them. If your adversary is stating something that directly contradicts the scriptures you don't have to agree with them. You have to examine the full context of what is being said when quoting the scriptures. You can't take a single sentence and form an idea that is not in line with the context of what is being said.

“Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:21-25‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Here are some verses that teach us that God is all knowing.

“because if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:20‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:33-34‬ ‭ASV‬‬

From this we can conclude that God cannot learn. Part of being all knowing is knowing the past, present, and future.

“declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭46:10‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭139:16‬ ‭ASV‬‬

So if God is all knowing and omnipresent He cannot evolve. To say that God became better and better at creation suggests that He wasn't all knowing to begin with. What is the point of all the speculation? No one will ever understand creation or God's plan. At least not in this world. Perhaps God may reveal it to us who knows but as of now He hasn't.

 

[DennisTate]

Matthew 5:25 is talking about reconciling your differences with your adversaries. It's not saying that we should agree with them. If your adversary is stating something that directly contradicts the scriptures you don't have to agree with them. You have to examine the full context of what is being said when quoting the scriptures. You can't take a single sentence and form an idea that is not in line with the context of what is being said.

“Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:21-25‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Here are some verses that teach us that God is all knowing.

“because if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:20‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:33-34‬ ‭ASV‬‬

From this we can conclude that God cannot learn. Part of being all knowing is knowing the past, present, and future.

“declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭46:10‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭139:16‬ ‭ASV‬‬

So if God is all knowing and omnipresent He cannot evolve. To say that God became better and better at creation suggests that He wasn't all knowing to begin with. What is the point of all the speculation? No one will ever understand creation or God's plan. At least not in this world. Perhaps God may reveal it to us who knows but as of now He hasn't.

Good point... but you see I actually do believe that God in a real sense "evolved" and got better and better and better at creation over infinite time in the past.

And yes... I believe that Adam and Eve were created....... probably millions of years after the Covering Cherub known to Christians as Lucifer.