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Is the creation account supposed to be interpreted literally?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 50.0%
  • No

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • Yes but with nuance

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Not even a little, big bang baby!

    Votes: 1 7.1%

  • Total voters
    14
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Diamond72

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events recorded in The Bible, like the flood
Noah's flood had world wide implications. But from our perspective, it was more of a local flood. Noah saved the plants and animals that were in Eden. This is the Tigris, Euphrates river valley. History calls this ancient Mesopotamia. This is what we read about in the Bible. Sheep, Goats, grapes, olives, barley and so on. This is what Noah saved on the ark. Biology calls this a biodiverse ecosystem. This was the world Noah lived in and was a part of. God uses science because He wants us to know what He has done.

We can see on a Elevation map where the flood took place. This is actually a floodplain. The Bering Strait is what broke. There was no Persian Gulf before Noah's Flood. This is still a hotly disputed area today. Science does a lot to help us understand what we read in our Bible that Moses gives us for today.

topographical-map-of-saudi-arabia.gif
 
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Diamond72

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As we can see there are two different words being used for breath in this verse
H5301
H5397
I want to focus on the second usage, and where else we can find it in the Bible.
A quick search reveals it is used 24 times!
So you want to look at the man God created in Genesis 1:27 where we read: "28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”

Science calls this man a "hunter gather". Adam & Eve were not given the whole world. They were given Eden. Science calls them food producers. This was the beginning of civilization. For over 100 years a lot of study has gone into understanding Adam. Where civilization began and how it spread to the whole world.

But if you want to talk about the heart and the lungs. How oxygen is carried to our whole body. This begins in Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of flesh is its blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for its blood shall make atonement for the soul."

In communion the Body and Blood of Jesus is in H5301
 
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d taylor

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Noah's flood had world wide implications. But from our perspective, it was more of a local flood. Noah saved the plants and animals that were in Eden. This is the Tigris, Euphrates river valley. History calls this ancient Mesopotamia. This is what we read about in the Bible. Sheep, Goats, grapes, olives, barley and so on. This is what Noah saved on the ark. Biology calls this a biodiverse ecosystem. This was the world Noah lived in and was a part of. God uses science because He wants us to know what He has done.

We can see on a Elevation map where the flood took place. This is actually a floodplain. The Bering Strait is what broke. There was no Persian Gulf before Noah's Flood. This is still a hotly disputed area today. Science does a lot to help us understand what we read in our Bible that Moses gives us for today.

View attachment 335519
-
Fine example of the science cult and one of their lies about the flood.
 
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Job 33:6

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Gen 2:7 And the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 (H853) manH120 of the dustH6083 ofH4480 the ground,H127 and breathedH5301 into his nostrilsH639 the breathH5397 of life;H2416 and manH120 becameH1961 a livingH2416 soul.H5315

As we can see there are two different words being used for breath in this verse
H5301
H5397
I want to focus on the second usage, and where else we can find it in the Bible.
A quick search reveals it is used 24 times!

Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
The Bible describes ancient near east cosmology, not modern science.
Screenshot_20220925-222956~2.png

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

Genesis 1:6



God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Genesis 1:7‭-‬8



And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,

Genesis 1:14



In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

Genesis 7:11



the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

Genesis 8:2



And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”

Genesis 1:20



And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;

Genesis 28:12‭-‬13



“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.

Exodus 20:4



and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.

Exodus 24:10



Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

Job 22:14



He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.

Job 26:10‭-‬11



Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

Job 37:18



Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

Job 37:18



can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?

Job 37:18



Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,

Job 38:22

God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.



So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Joshua 10:13



Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,

Psalms 19:4



The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,

Daniel 4:20



The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.

Psalms 29:10



Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,

Psalm 78:23



you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,

Psalms 104:3



He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.

Psalms 135:7



To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.

Psalms 136:6



Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

Psalms 148:4‭-‬6



Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.

Psalms 150:1



and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.

Isaiah 34:4



It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Isaiah 40:22



Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.

Ezekiel 1:22



And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.

Ezekiel 1:26



And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.

Ezekiel 10:1



He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;

Proverbs 8:28-‬29



The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.

Revelation 6:14



After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Revelation 4:1



“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,

Job 38:4‭-‬6



The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah

Psalms 75:3



For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.

1 Samuel 2:8
 
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dwb001

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Your question is misleading and wrong. It should be, "Do you trust your interpretation of Genesis or do you trust the scientific method.?

Both have room for error. We have to be humble enough to admit that.
Do you trust the eye witness or do you trust conjecture?
 
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Diamond72

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Fine example of the science cult and one of their lies about the flood.
Sounds like a flame to me. You may want to be careful of who you accuse. Why did Jesus say beware of the leaven of the Pharisees? What does this mean in Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. What did Jesus said about the traditions of men?

A world wide flood at the time of Noah is impossible. For example, there are 10,000 islands in the Pacific. Each has their own unique biodiversity that you do not find anywhere else in the world. Noah would have to travel to ever island to pick up the wildlife and take them back to the exact spot after the flood. Noah did not have a motor or a sail. How did he get to the North Pole to save the Polar Bears and how did he get to the Philippines to save the Tazer? How did he get to Australia to save the Kangaroo.

A good example is the Tazer, how many of those were on Noah's Ark? Or the Kangaroo, how many of those were on the ARk. Did they swim back to Australia after the flood? Was Noah from the Middle East. The land where Abraham walked to claim for his descendants? How many Tazers and Kangaroos are there in the Middle East? How many Polar Bears were on Noah's Ark? Polar bears need to live near the arctic circle because if they live in the desert, they will die because they will not adapt well to the weather. Polar bears also live in the Arctic because they camouflage really well, because their fur is white and most of the landscape in the Arctic is white.

If you can do better than Science, if you can come up with a better explanation from the Bible and not just your opinions. Show me what you have. Present your evidence. Give me something that would stand up in a court of law.

screenshot-www.google.com-2023.09.02-08_47_20.png
screenshot-www.google.com-2023.09.02-08_49_50.png
screenshot-www.google.com-2023.09.02-08_52_45.png
 
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Diamond72

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And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
In this context, the "firmament" is often interpreted as the sky or the atmosphere, and the verse describes the act of creating the space between the waters on the Earth's surface (such as oceans and seas) and the waters above (perhaps clouds or a celestial ocean). This separation is part of the process of organizing and forming the world as described in the creation account in Genesis.
 
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d taylor

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Sounds like a flame to me. You may want to be careful of who you accuse. Why did Jesus say beware of the leaven of the Pharisees? What does this mean in Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. What did Jesus said about the traditions of men?

A world wide flood at the time of Noah is impossible. For example, there are 10,000 islands in the Pacific. Each has their own unique biodiversity that you do not find anywhere else in the world. Noah would have to travel to ever island to pick up the wildlife and take them back to the exact spot after the flood. Noah did not have a motor or a sail. How did he get to the North Pole to save the Polar Bears and how did he get to the Philippines to save the Tazer? How did he get to Australia to save the Kangaroo.

A good example is the Tazer, how many of those were on Noah's Ark? Or the Kangaroo, how many of those were on the ARk. Did they swim back to Australia after the flood? Was Noah from the Middle East. The land where Abraham walked to claim for his descendants? How many Tazers and Kangaroos are there in the Middle East? How many Polar Bears were on Noah's Ark? Polar bears need to live near the arctic circle because if they live in the desert, they will die because they will not adapt well to the weather. Polar bears also live in the Arctic because they camouflage really well, because their fur is white and most of the landscape in the Arctic is white.

If you can do better than Science, if you can come up with a better explanation from the Bible and not just your opinions. Show me what you have. Present your evidence. Give me something that would stand up in a court of law.

View attachment 335524View attachment 335527View attachment 335526
-
Your misunderstanding of God's creation, is typical of one who lets science dictate their Biblical knowledge.

It seems to escape you that the current way God's creation is with different areas of land masses scatter throughout the water. Is not the way the land (earth) was at the time of Noah, God's creation was a single piece of circular land (earth) surrounded by water.
 
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The Hour IS AT HAND

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The Bible describes ancient near east cosmology, not modern science.
View attachment 335523
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”

Genesis 1:6



God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Genesis 1:7‭-‬8



And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,

Genesis 1:14



In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

Genesis 7:11



the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

Genesis 8:2



And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”

Genesis 1:20



And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;

Genesis 28:12‭-‬13



“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.

Exodus 20:4



and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.

Exodus 24:10



Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’

Job 22:14



He has described a circle [earths shape] on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.

Job 26:10‭-‬11



Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

Job 37:18



Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

Job 37:18



can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?

Job 37:18



Have you entered the storehouse of the snow, or seen the armory of the hail,

Job 38:22

God stores his weapons and mana in storehouses to help the isrealites in battle, and to give gifts to His people.



So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Joshua 10:13



Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,

Psalms 19:4



The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,

Daniel 4:20



The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.

Psalms 29:10



Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,

Psalm 78:23



you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,

Psalms 104:3



He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.

Psalms 135:7



To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.

Psalms 136:6



Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.

Psalms 148:4‭-‬6



Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.

Psalms 150:1



and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.

Isaiah 34:4



It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Isaiah 40:22



Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.

Ezekiel 1:22



And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.

Ezekiel 1:26



And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.

Ezekiel 10:1



He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;

Proverbs 8:28-‬29



The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.

Revelation 6:14



After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Revelation 4:1



“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,

Job 38:4‭-‬6



The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah

Psalms 75:3



For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.

1 Samuel 2:8
You have already posted this but thank you. I will have to respectfully disagree as I interpret the first chapter of Genesis literally. Thankyou.
 
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So you want to look at the man God created in Genesis 1:27 where we read: "28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”

Science calls this man a "hunter gather". Adam & Eve were not given the whole world. They were given Eden. Science calls them food producers. This was the beginning of civilization. For over 100 years a lot of study has gone into understanding Adam. Where civilization began and how it spread to the whole world.

But if you want to talk about the heart and the lungs. How oxygen is carried to our whole body. This begins in Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of flesh is its blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for its blood shall make atonement for the soul."

In communion the Body and Blood of Jesus is in H5301
Thank you for your reply, it doesnt seem that we will see eye to eye on this matter. I appreciate your input.
 
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Jipsah

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Many years ago I was working on a software package where two machines needed to talk to each other (there's your first example where I reduce something to the vernacular, but I reckon y'all know what it means without a technical dissertation), which they did, quite nicely. Most of the time. The problem was that every now and then, for no obvious reason, the serial link would pack up, and you'd have to restart the application. Couldn't see any reason in the code for it to happen.. Haha! Packet sniffer. (Note, a packet sniffer doesn't literally "sniff" anything,and has no nose. But if this tale was coming from Scripture, some people would insist that it must literally do both. Onward..)

Of course, with the packet sniffer on it ran for weeks and didn't fail This corresponded to the engineering axiom, which must be accepted as true, that It Never Happens When You're Watching." But patience is a virtue, and we rigged up a packet flinger that did nothing but chuck every kind of packet we'd be sending in real life to the other machine. No problems. Set it up on the other end and it took the better part of two weeks for it to fail, but fail it did'

What did we find? That what was killing it was an End of File condition being returned on the serial port. Trick is an EOF is nonsense on a serial port. My logic hadn't been writ to handle it, and so my code proceeded to sit down and do nothing because, well, it had reached an End of File (Note again - code can't literally sit down and light up a smoke, but you got the idea, didn't you?)

Easy fix. Three lines of code, defaulted any trash packet I got as trash and kept on chugging, which is what I should have done in the first place. Now I had to 'splain it to the Suits, who were pretty smart folks, but had little or no tolerance for technical minutiae. So I had to give the a Story.

Story was like this. You have a chicken with corn piled around it. It pecks the corn in from of it, and as long as it can see more corn it will turn to peck that corn as well. But if the chicken has for some reason decided there's no more corn there, it will cease pecking and stand there looking befuddled (as only a chicken can do) until it sees more corn. The EOF on the serial port told my application thjere was no more corn, so it stopped pecking. I changed the code so it continued pecking no matter what.

The suits loved the story, and understood precisely what I had done. None of them asked how I got a chicken into the machine, or why my software required corn to work properly.

It was a story.
To illustrate a fact.
It was not literally true.
It did, however, efficiently and unmistakably convey what the orblem was, and how I fixed it, to people who wouldn't have understood the technical gibberish, and would have had no patience to listen to it.

The Genesis story is like that. It conveys the reality of the Creation in the only way that the original hearers could have understood it. Just as nothing in my chicken story was literally true, it conveyed the truth to my bosses. JUst as much in Genesis is not literally true, it conveys the truth of the Creation to those (like us) who could never understand all our Lord actually did.
 
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dwb001

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Many years ago I was working on a software package where two machines needed to talk to each other (there's your first example where I reduce something to the vernacular, but I reckon y'all know what it means without a technical dissertation, which they did, quite nicely. Most of the time. The problem was that every now and then, for no obvious reason, the serial link would pack up, and you'd have to restart the application. Couldn't see any reason in the code for it to happen.. Haha! Packet sniffer. (Note, a packet sniffer doesn't literally "sniff" anything,and has no nose. But if this tale was coming from Scripture, some people would insist that it must literally do both. Onward..)

Of course, with the packet sniffer on it ran for weeks and didn't fail This corresponded to the engineering axiom, which must be accepted as true, that It Never Happens When You're Watching." But patience is a virtue, and we rigged up a packet flinger that did nothing but chuck every kind of packet we'd be sending in real life to the other machine. No problems. Seti it up on the other endand it took the better part of two weeks for it to fail, but fail it did'

What did we find? That what was killing it was an End of File condition being returned on the serial port. Trick is an EOF is nonsense. My logic hadn't been writ to handle it, and so my code proceeded to sit down and do nothing because, well, it had reached an End ofFile (Note again - code can't literally sit down and light up a smoke, but you got the idea, didn't you?)

Easy fix. Three lines of code, defaulted any trash packet I got as trash and kept on chugging, which is what I shouild have done in the first place. Now I had to 'splain it to the Suits, who were pretty smarty folks, but hd little or no tolerance for technical minutiae. So I had to give the a Story.

Story was like this. You have a chicken with corn piled around it. It pecks the corn in from of it, and as long as it can see more corn it will turn to peck that corn as well. But if the chicken has for some reason decided there's no more corn there, it will cease pecking and stand there looking befuddled (as only a chicken can do) until it seems more corn. The EOF on the serial port told my application thjere was no more corn, so it stopped pecknig. I changed the code so it continued pecking no matter what.

The suits loved the story, and understood precisely what I had done. None of them asked how I got a chicken into the machine, or why my software required corn to work properly.

It was a story.
To illustrate a fact.
It was not literally true.
It did, however, efficiently and unmistakably convey what the orblem was, and how I fixed it, to people who wouldn't have understood the technical gibberish, and would have had no patience to listen to it.

The Genesis story is like that. It conveys the reality of the Creation in the only way that the original hearers could have understood it. Just as nothing in my chicken story was literally true, it conveyed the truth to my bosses. JUst as much in Genesis is not literally true, it conveys the truth of the CXreation to those (like us) who coul;d never understand all our Lord actually did.
Cute story... but Genesis is a first hand eye witness account. Just as your account was. If pressed you could provide greater detail... so could God if He was pressed. But we have what we have.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Do you trust the eye witness or do you trust conjecture?
Who is the "eye witness"?

When you pick up a book and begin to read, do you automatically assume that it is literal historical truth?
 
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dwb001

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Who is the "eye witness"?

When you pick up a book and begin to read, do you automatically assume that it is literal historical truth?
God.

When I pick up this book it has proven itself to be historical truth.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Thankyou for your explanation!
you are welcome. So you see for me it is not a question of "Who or what do you trust?"

Science tries to figure things our based on most reliable evidence. But it does not give us meaning. In fact without scripture we are we do not know how to deal with the knowledge that science gives us. For the meaning and purpose of our existence we need to hear stories. They provide context and wisdom. Science can only provided data.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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God.

When I pick up this book it has proven itself to be historical truth.
I am glad that seems to work for you at this time. i do not wish to challenge your world view. I only wanted to explain mine in the context of the OP.
 
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dwb001

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I am glad that seems to work for you at this time. i do not wish to challenge your world view. I only wanted to explain mine in the context of the OP.
Then you should address th OP and not me
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Then you shouldn't have said in #116 that you were addressing the OP when you were addressing me.
Why? I was addressing your question to me.

You seem to be just looking to argue.
 
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