Do you trust God or Man when it comes to the creation?

[BobRyan]

True. Logic does not start with or belong to a person.
Errors:
* It is an interesting theory by some that the logic of God is somehow different from the logic of men.
Logic is logic regardless of whose mind the thoughts flow through.

Some logic is flawed - God's logic is not.

* Others suggest that the logic and thoughts of God are somehow beyond the ability of men to comprehend.

Again you talk about Bible statements as if God is not the author of His own Word.
"My thoughts are not your thoughts" -

Is 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

There is a huge difference between the flawed logic of man - vs the flawless logic of infinite God.

Man CAN have good logic but is not guaranteed to have it right since we don't start off knowing all the variables - we can't see all that affects a given situation the way God does.

To the one that sees a wide open clear paved road on the left and a gravel road on the right - it is logical to go left.

To the one that sees that the bridge it out 2 miles ahead on the paved road and a one lane bridge is still intact 2 miles ahead on the gravel road - it makes sense to take the gravel road.

Man's logic is often flawed and short sighted.

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

Some logic is flawed - God's logic is not.

Again you talk about Bible statements as if God is not the author of His own Word.
"My thoughts are not your thoughts" -

Is 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

There is a huge difference between the flawed logic of man - vs the flawless logic of infinite God.

Man CAN have good logic but is not guaranteed to have it right since we don't start off knowing all the variables - we can't see all that affects a given situation the way God does.

To the one that sees a wide open clear paved road on the left and a gravel road on the right - it is logical to go left.

To the one that sees that the bridge it out 2 miles ahead on the paved road and a one lane bridge is still intact 2 miles ahead on the gravel road - it makes sense to take the gravel road.

Man's logic is often flawed and short sighted.

Mat 7:12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

[BobRyan]

Does the Bible call them fallen angels? Adam had the breath of life. Science tells us that Adam and Eve or the Semetic people were not the only people alive at that time in the Tigris Euphrates river valley.

science makes "guesses"

The bible tells us that between today's scientist and Adam there is a world wide flood where the fountains of the deep were opened up and even a case where land masses were divided. "In Peleg's days, the Earth was divided" Gen 10:25, 1 Chron 1:19

The idea that we trust the short sighted man of today over the word of God for what actually happened in the past - is not as well thought through as some have at first imagined.

 

[BobRyan]

Mat 7:12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

I have a sermon on that today

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

I have a sermon on that today

God be with you brother.

 

[BobRyan]

What does Genesis 4 mean "I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” ". Who was Cain worried about that would kill him?

Adam lived to be over nine hundred years old and had many children according to the Bible
Seth lived to be 912 years old according to the Bible and had many children according to the Bible.
Even after the flood - some 400+ years after the flood - Abraham marries his half sister.

The only problem with someone marrying a sibling is the defects in genetic code that align when homologous genetic recombination occurs as part of procreation. But if the genetic code is without defect - as Adam and Eve would have been - then it would take a while for those genetic defects to start showing up in the genome of mankind and marrying siblings would not give expression to defects in phenotype for many generations.

We are told in Deuteronomy 7:7 "The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people".

Deut 7 is written 40 years after Sinai in Ex 20. IT is over 2500 years from the time of Adam or Cain. So the idea that many generations after the flood , some descendant group of the line of "Heber" in the line of Shem - would be "few in number" as opposed to the Egptian nation where they lived (or any other nearby nation) is not exactly a "challenge" for either the Bible doctrine on origins in Genesis 1-2 or the flood in Genesis 7.

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

Adam lived to be over nine hundred years old and had many children according to the Bible
Seth lived to be 912 years old according to the Bible and had many children according to the Bible.
Even after the flood - some 400+ years after the flood - Abraham marries his half sister.

The only problem with someone marrying a sibling is the defects in genetic code that align when homologous genetic recombination occurs as part of procreation. But if the genetic code is without defect - as Adam and Eve would have been - then it would take a while for those genetic defects to start showing up in the genome of mankind and marrying siblings would not give expression to defects in phenotype for many generations.

Deut 7 is written 40 years after Sinai in Ex 20. IT is over 2500 years from the time of Adam or Cain.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. .

Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

It seems to me that once Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they had become tainted. God is still addressing satan in Genesis 3:15, "thy seed" or the offspring of the devil. Corrupting their very DNA I would propose. Which is what is meant in Genesis 6:9. Noah was not perfect, as Romans 3:10 tells us no man is perfect (except Jesus), so how then was Noah perfect in his generations? I would put forward it was his DNA as you can find God's name literally written in our DNA. As for the last days being like those of Noah, can you think of anything floating around that has the ability to change peoples DNA?

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that once Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they had become tainted.

Indeed they had a sinful nature -- but they could still produce a child with blue eyes and without a crippled leg etc.

God is still addressing satan in Genesis 3:15, "thy seed" or the offspring of the devil.

Jesus said that the non-Christian Jews that were opposing Christ were "sons of your father the devil"., He did not mean that they were genetically related to the devil. There is no DNA-change when a person is is formerly in Satan's camp converts to Christianity.

Noah was not perfect, as Romans 3:10 tells us no man is perfect (except Jesus),

Indeed all have sinned. Even Adam sinned -- but DNA defects are not created by coveting. DNA defects are created during recombination or via radiation. (Cosmic rays for example). And that takes a lot of time.

Moses is the first generation where God introduces the restriction against marrying a close relative.

 

[Diamond72]

Adam lived to be over nine hundred years old and had many children according to the Bible
Seth lived to be 912 years old according to the Bible and had many children according to the Bible.

So Seth was looking 912 years into the future and saw that Adam and Eve would have more children and they would turn out like him and want to kill him? After they got thrown out like he got thrown out. Looks like you are grasping at straws, but I am sure that is what you have to do to get what you believe to work. We all do the same thing, we try to get the pieces to fit as well as we can even if we have to hammer some of them into place.

 

[Diamond72]

The bible tells us that between today's scientist and Adam there is a world wide flood where the fountains of the deep were opened up and even a case where land masses were divided.

I have studied that quite a bit. It is impossible for Noah's flood to be a "worldwide" flood. There was a worldwide flood at the time of Pangea. So one is a shadow and type of the other. Noah saved the plants and animals of Eden and they did branch out to the world after the flood. We read about grapes and olives and things like that. Saved by Noah and are now worldwide in their distribution. Noah saved civilization and that kept us from going back to being hunter-gatherers. Even if he did like to drink a bit.

Genesis 9:20-27, it is mentioned that after the flood, Noah became a farmer and planted a vineyard. One day, he drank some of the wine he had produced and became drunk.

 

[Diamond72]

DNA defects are not created by coveting.

They are created by inbreeding. I know a lot of people who marry someone from another country and the kids are very healthy and do good in school.

 

[Diamond72]

I refer to them as "earth people" as opposed to the "spirit people" God placed in the Garden.

They refer to them as hunter-gathers and food producers. In Genesis 2:7 we read: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." This was the beginning of civilization. Adam and Eve were the beginning of many things. I tend to be a dispensationalist where a day in Genesis is 1,000 years.

 

[Diamond72]

Thank you for your response. I hope we can "reason" together and be "persuaded" that the entire Bible is one huge Logos (logical) word of God.

I tend to believe the KJV is the word of God. Jeremiah 1:12 "Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it." If anyone has ever performed guard duty, the main requirement is you have to stay awake.

 

[Diamond72]

Again... we are talking about the age of the earth... not when were Adam and Eve created.

The Bible does not tell us the age of the earth, science does. That is why we need BOTH science and the Bible. God wants us to know what He is doing. Although Schroder goes back 1,000 years to Nahmanides. Nahmanides points out, is that there is a qualitative difference between "one" and "first." One is absolute; first is comparative. The Torah could not write “a first day” on the first day because there had not yet been a second day relative to it.

The very first word in the Bible is Beginning. If we do not understand the first word, then we are not going to understand anything that follows. We have to start at the beginning and not in the middle.

Science has shown that there's only one "substanceless substance" that can change into matter. And that's energy. Einstein's famous equation, E=MC2, tells us that energy can change form and take on the form of matter. And once it changes into matter, time grabs hold. Nahmanides has made a phenomenal statement. I don't know if he knew the Laws of Relativity. But we know them now. We know that energy - light beams, radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays - all travel at the speed of light, 300 million meters per second. At the speed of light, time does not pass. The universe was aging, time was passing, but time only grabs hold when matter is present. This moment of time before the clock of the Bible begins lasted less than 1/100,000 of a second. A miniscule time. But in that time, the universe expanded from a tiny speck, to about the size of the Solar System. From that moment on we have matter, and biblical time flows forward. The Biblical clock begins here.

 

[trophy33]

So Seth was looking 912 years into the future and saw that Adam and Eve would have more children and they would turn out like him and want to kill him? After they got thrown out like he got thrown out. Looks like you are grasping at straws, but I am sure that is what you have to do to get what you believe to work. We all do the same thing, we try to get the pieces to fit as well as we can even if we have to hammer some of them into place.

We like systems, since Aristotle got preferred instead of Plato in European and post-European mindset. However, Bible was not written or composed to be systematic or even logical. These are all philosophical Greek concepts. And it was certainly not written to be scientific, its another European concept not known to ancient Mesopotamia.

Thats why all theological systems have problem with many verses and must hammer them down to fit, somehow. Or ignore them.

 

[Diamond72]

since Aristotle got preferred instead of Plato

It is the job of the teacher to get the student started and to go beyond that the teacher can do. When I was in school the student did the work and the teacher just handed out assignments. We tend to procrastinate because if we get our work done to soon, they tend to give you more to do.

 

[eleos1954]

Yes, ok, Logical does come from Logos. Only the word of God is actually Hebrew, not Greek.

Genesis 11
"5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”"

We see a lot of that confusion on Christian websites.

Greek is a good language though. It is exact and precise. A military language used to conquer the world.


What does Genesis 4 mean "I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” ". Who was Cain worried about that would kill him?

We are told in Deuteronomy 7:7 "The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people".

Cain was separated from God ... this was frightening for him .... paranoid (so to speak) of all people.

Deuteronomy 7:7

The fewest of all people (smaller). Instead of God selecting some one of the great nations of the world; instead of that, he had chosen one of the smallest as HIs special treasure.

 

[HTacianas]

False Dichotomy:

1. 
   noun
   A logical fallacy in which a spectrum of possible options is misrepresented as an either-or choice between two mutually exclusive things.
   
   
   Not sure how this is a false dichotomy as the Bible clearly portrays one creation story, and science, another.
   
   Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
   
   Are the words of Jesus also a false dichotomy, as he only presents two options? Also I am asking nobody to trust me, I am asking them to trust the Bible. If the scriptures support some other story of creation I would be happy to see it.

The bible does not clearly portray one creation story. It's actually two creation stories spliced together. But aside from that, Origen, in 220 or so AD, resolved that based on the internal wording of Genesis that the creation could not have been six literal days. Your point of view is that it was. And you offer your point of view as if it is the very word of God. Your question is "do you trust God or man", but then offered only your opinion -as a man- as to the word of God. So in the end, the question is actually "do you trust man or man"?

 

[The Hour IS AT HAND]

Your point of view is that it was. And you offer your point of view as if it is the very word of God. Your question is "do you trust God or man", but then offered only your opinion -as a man- as to the word of God. So in the end, the question is actually "do you trust man or man"?

What about the 26 verses of scripture I use in OP? Which is why I believe what I do. I read what the scriptures say, and that is what I believe. I would disagree, Genesis 1 seems pretty clear to me. In no way am I trying to elevate my opinion to that of the Lord, however I believe the account He has given us.

 

[juanwood]

I personally lean towards a flat earth, not a spherical one, as that is what scripture seems to support. I like your picture, thank-you!

Ah, so you are a deluded anti-facts Qanon'er. Onto ignore you go.