Do you think death is random?

[lsume]

There is truly no such thing as randomness. Randomness exist for us that are not all powerful. But flip a coin and the reality is everything can be computed to give a precise measurement to the result. But time we can't control - so randomness is an abstraction to explain the power we lack.

True. My math background reinforces that thought. My Christian understanding Tells me that God is infinite and knows every outcome before it happens. I should have added that God will not lose any of His elect.

 

[lsume]

No, probably for about the 20 or so years for most people, you are getting stronger and better, the opposite of dying. Sometime between then and 30ish you start dying.
Yes, everybody is always fighting the laws of thermodynamics and decay that it results in but for the 1st 20 or so years you are actually winning the fight, beating the enemy. Then it all changes after that.

As I understand it, cellular regeneration is off from the very first iteration.

 

[Sorn]

There is truly no such thing as randomness. Randomness exist for us that are not all powerful. But flip a coin and the reality is everything can be computed to give a precise measurement to the result. But time we can't control - so randomness is an abstraction to explain the power we lack.

Quantum mechanics shows there is randomness in the universe / fabric of reality

 

[Sorn]

As I understand it, cellular regeneration is off from the very first iteration.

No, cellular regeneration can fail from the first iteration and often does but there is an overabundance of repair mechanisms that can fix this or more than adequately compensate so that the organism grows stronger rather than weaker, ie beats death and decay back and overcomes it.
So the onslaught of decay begins from the start & its constant, but we initially beat it back for 20 or so years then it begins to get the better of us.
Eventually though, because it is a constant battle, the repair mechanisms themselves break down or thin out so the overabundance becomes a balance and then a deficit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Tinkering with their moral compasses then??
If He 'tinkered' with ANYTHING in a way that would contribute to them choosing to sin then He is partly responsible. Except any 'tinkering' He did was to steer them away from sin but they still fell because they chose to sin.

Let me put it another way. He made us all as we are. He made them as they were. (Any addition to that is either direct, or indirectly as through other agency. Agency logically does not imply lack of causation, since he caused the agency to exist and act. But it also does not imply blame on his part, since agents and sinners are both willed creatures. On top of that, it does not in any case imply blame on his part, because he does not operate according to our economy but his. He owns it all, and it is all his to do with as he will. Any blame we find ourselves compelled to place on him assumes otherwise.)

To repeat, he made them as they were, and us as we are. The predilection of curiosity, if that was their downfall, or desire to improve their understanding, or even, perhaps, a natural inclination toward self-determination, may have been their downfall, yet in the end, they chose to disobey. Simple as that. THEY did it.

Likewise, and more obviously, people naturally are fraught with sin --slaves to sin-- apart from Christ. They choose according to their at-the-moment desires. And we regenerated believers also choose according to our momentary desires. Do we then blame God for making us as we are? No! We think that is simply base reality!

Also, to accuse God of wrongdoing in any of this structure, is to neglect the fact that he looks upon the heart to judge the deeds. That too, does not imply actual autonomous self-determination on the part of creatures. We do what we are.

I hope it isn't necessary to demonstrate the absolute logic of cause-and-effect in the matter. Fact does not contradict Scripture.

 

[Sorn]

Let me put it another way. He made us all as we are. He made them as they were. (Any addition to that is either direct, or indirectly as through other agency. Agency logically does not imply lack of causation, since he caused the agency to exist and act. But it also does not imply blame on his part, since agents and sinners are both willed creatures. On top of that, it does not in any case imply blame on his part, because he does not operate according to our economy but his. He owns it all, and it is all his to do with as he will. Any blame we find ourselves compelled to place on him assumes otherwise.)

To repeat, he made them as they were, and us as we are. The predilection of curiosity, if that was their downfall, or desire to improve their understanding, or even, perhaps, a natural inclination toward self-determination, may have been their downfall, yet in the end, they chose to disobey. Simple as that. THEY did it.

Likewise, and more obviously, people naturally are fraught with sin --slaves to sin-- apart from Christ. They choose according to their at-the-moment desires. And we regenerated believers also choose according to our momentary desires. Do we then blame God for making us as we are? No! We think that is simply base reality!

Also, to accuse God of wrongdoing in any of this structure, is to neglect the fact that he looks upon the heart to judge the deeds. That too, does not imply actual autonomous self-determination on the part of creatures. We do what we are.

I hope it isn't necessary to demonstrate the absolute logic of cause-and-effect in the matter. Fact does not contradict Scripture.

"To repeat, he made them as they were, and us as we are. The predilection of curiosity, if that was their downfall, or desire to improve their understanding, or even, perhaps, a natural inclination toward self-determination, may have been their downfall, yet in the end, they chose to disobey. Simple as that. THEY did it."
Then don't say God caused them to sin because, as you just said yourself, He didn't. This also means He did not set them up to sin in nay way, otherwise He would be partly responsible.
They were perfectly capable of not sinning but chose to sin. They were not compelled to sin by anything God did to them or their surroundings because He did nothing to bring about sin.
Any other position and God is partly responsible, even if He is God!.

 

[trophy33]

No, He planned for them to sin. The creature was made subject to vanity (not willingly) - Per Romans..

In the context the vanity means death, not sin.

 

[cfposter]

In the context the vanity means death, not sin.

From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.

 

[trophy33]

Quantum mechanics shows there is randomness in the universe / fabric of reality

Not really. There is math for quantum mechanics, wave patterns, quantum entanglement etc. These rules would not be possible in a real randomness.

Its practically accepted that quantum world is not the fabric of reality, but there is something behind it (for example strings and their vibrations).

 

[trophy33]

From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.

Context is more important than dictionary.

I can say about a dog that he is a good boy, but from the context its clear I do not mean that the dog is a young human male.

Definition of boy - a male child from birth to adulthood (Merriam Webster Dictionary).

 

[Halbhh]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

It depends on precisely what you mean when you say 'every little detail' because a very reasonable meaning might be -- 'every little details that actually matters(!)' [but not stuff that is utterly trivial and doesn't matter even a bit]. Or, to some of us, the wording 'every little detail' can have an extremely different meaning (really it can!). It could mean instead that absolutely nothing in your life is ever up to you in any way ever. That even if you swing a hammer imprecisely and hit your thumb that God is doing that to you, instead of you doing it to yourself. So, you see, 2 very different meanings there for 'every little detail' are going to come up in people's minds.

 

[cfposter]

Context is more important than dictionary.

I can say about a dog that he is a good boy, but from the context its clear I do not mean that the dog is a young human male.

Definition of boy - a male child from birth to adulthood (Merriam Webster Dictionary).

Context is telling me the answer. So my understanding of the context is better to me than your opinion.

 

[trophy33]

Context is telling me the answer. So my understanding of the context is better to me than your opinion.

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay
R 8:20-21

Decay, decomposition, death - the fate of everything that is physical, material. Its not about sin. Its about the same thing as "you are dust and you will turn into dust".

 

[cfposter]

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay
R 8:20-21

Decay, decomposition, death - the fate of everything that is physical, material. Its not about sin. Its about the same thing as "you are dust and you will turn into dust".

I suggest you get a Bible with correct verses in it.

 

[TedT]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

In general term HE creates things just to die, in small things and in large...Jonah 4 where HE appoints, ordains (Piel of מָנָה, mānâ) a vine to grow and die, a worm to kill the vine and and an intense east wind to torment Jonah to bring him to repentance...with no real indication that this discipline worked.

 

[trophy33]

I suggest you get a Bible with correct verses in it.

Ah... clever. Probably yours?

I looked at like 20 on biblehub.com and none has "sin" there.

 

[Sorn]

No, He planned for them to sin. The creature was made subject to vanity (not willingly) - Per Romans..

Adam and Eve were NOT finished. Perfect is to have the Spirit of God. Adam and Eve sinned, which is NOT perfection.

They were finished and were perfect but still sinned.
Lucifer was perfect and finished also but he also chose to sin.
God tells us that the only way to ensure sin doesn't happen is to have His Spirit in dwelling. But something can still be perfect and finished without it, it will just be different, like an apple is different from an orange but they can both be perfect and finished.

 

[Cis.jd]

Yes, God would be responsible for ALL Murder, ALL child molestation, ALL SIN!

But man still committed those acts willing through his own conscience and will and must be held ACCOUNTABLE. But God shows He is RESPONSIBLE. God chooses whom He shall save. Jesus told His Disciples, 'You have not chosen me, I have chosen you'.

You see ALL GOOD works are COPYRIGHT by Jesus Christ. He owns them - no matter who does them. They are HIS.

Well you have to make a decision here. Even if Man was the agent in doing such things, if God really purposefully intended all this, then he is the main culprit. Your whole "he chooses whom he saves" is not only irrelevant to the discussion but it makes a horrible god. He chooses who goes into eternal damnation? Really. That is someone we should take as all good? Sounds to me the only reason why you believe in God is fear, the faith you have has no positivity behind it. It's no where different than a north korean making an allegiance to Kim Jong just so he doesn't die.

 

[lsume]

No, cellular regeneration can fail from the first iteration and often does but there is an overabundance of repair mechanisms that can fix this or more than adequately compensate so that the organism grows stronger rather than weaker, ie beats death and decay back and overcomes it.
So the onslaught of decay begins from the start & its constant, but we initially beat it back for 20 or so years then it begins to get the better of us.
Eventually though, because it is a constant battle, the repair mechanisms themselves break down or thin out so the overabundance becomes a balance and then a deficit.

Per your description and my understanding, it seems a different mechanism is engaged in early life to compensate for necessary growth which I assume leaves quickly once optimal growth is achieved. Therefore I must stand on my original post.

 

[Strong in Him]

Our perfect, loving heavenly Father caused Adam to sin SO THAT he can demonstrate his love for us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Really??
God caused Adam to sin and then sent Jesus to die for the sinners he himself had caused?
God caused people to become sinners and evil, and then punished them because they became too evil, as in Noah's time?

If God caused people to sin then he should have been delighted to see them doing what they were made to do and what he had caused to happen - why, then, would he punish them? And why would he send his Son to take all the sins that he had caused upon himself, and then be killed?
That's not love.

Love says, "you chose to get yourselves into that mess and if I punished/killed you for it, you would only have yourselves to blame - but I don't want that for you. I want you to be forgiven and have eternal life, so I'm going to take your punishment myself."
We deserved eternal death and separation from God because of our actions and sin; he chose to forgive us and enable us to have eternal life and every blessing in Christ.