Do you think death is random?

[Macchiato]

I wouldn't say he's micromanaging our life but I would say that he's involved in every detail of our life whether we know it or not.

This is the answer to your own question. Death comes to us all there's no getting around that. I will say that death isnt random at all everyone's days here are numbered and sometimes God let us know that. My cousin who passed from renal failure dreamt that everyone threw a party for her but no one paid attention to her. Everyone saw through her like she was invisible. Days later she passed and they through a big repass in her honor. My cousin wasnt too close to God but He still let her know when her time was coming to a close.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Keeping in mind that foreknowledge does not preclude human will, God uses human will by internally moving it. We willingly agree, we do not act against our will, but in accordance with our will.

I agree, foreknowledge does not prevent anyone from free will. And I will add ,
only those who walk with His Holy Spirit willingly agree with His direction. Thanks for engaging.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You anthropomorphize God to describe the two possibles this way. God needn't "micromanage" to control every detail. He spoke the whole business --complete-- into existence. Looking at it from God's viewpoint, what is the difference? He is not time dependent. He MADE this. The whole thing. Every detail.

You have him swimming in this mess with us, as if he is a better swimmer.

The Bible nowhere, says "God is not time-dependent", which is a man-made construct. An imagination of man.

The bible does say:

Gen 6:6-7 And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

How could God sorrow, repent, over something that He knew in minute detail in advance. He does not have total foreknowledge of every action man will perform.

God certainly has the ability to "know" how we will respond, based upon the state of our heart.

John 13:38 Jesus said in answer, Will you give up your life for me? Truly I say to you, Before the cry of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] you will have said three times that you are not my disciple.

But to blow this out to some time-traveling ability, according to Genisis is not true.

He also has general knowledge "enough to know", that sin would enter the world. The cross was planned before the foundation of the world. God knew if man had a choice the cross was needed.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[timothyu]

I have been struck by the incredible coincidence of two very rarely seen and odd last names popping up at the same time in the obituaries and neither are related or seem to have any connection whatsoever. Almost like there is a non-random pattern rather than extreme coincidence, same as the 'it happens in threes' theory.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And you're saying God caused Adam and eve to sin because of this law? Okay now I see what you mean and agree. It's just seems weird to say God caused evil but if he didn't then who did? I don't think the cause you mean is the same cause people think. Most think if you cause evil you are evil because you caused it but God caused evil more in an indirect way out of necessity it seems.

Aaargh! I spent probably a half hour answering this and got a phone call and it is gone!

Yes, "indirectly" is a good way to put it. Calvinists are accused of claiming God has equal purpose in sending people to Hell as he does in sending anyone to Heaven. But there is more to this subject of evil than that question.

Evil, or the less vague term, 'sin', is unlike any other thing, all of which, except for sin, can be said to made by God, without which nothing has been made. Sin is not in itself a thing, but a privation of good. Apart from the existence of Good, there is no sin --there is simply ....nothing. The opposite cannot be said to be true. The YingYan people like to posit is bogus. Sin has no 'mathematical absolute value'.

So God did not make sin, but agents who can rebel against their own creator. It still confounds me, but I see it is so, though I don't know how God was able to do such a thing.

Sin is also the ONLY thing, I believe, that can actually hurt --damage-- God. Eve's seed crushed the serpent's head, but he bruised her seed's heel. I believe that wound, taken for our sakes, will last throughout eternity --and that is to God's glory. He came that close to the edge of ruin, which demonstrates his enormous control over all things.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Aaargh! I spent probably a half hour answering this and got a phone call and it is gone!

Yes, "indirectly" is a good way to put it. Calvinists are accused of claiming God has equal purpose in sending people to Hell as he does in sending anyone to Heaven. But there is more to this subject of evil than that question.

Evil, or the less vague term, 'sin', is unlike any other thing, all of which, except for sin, can be said to made by God, without which nothing has been made. Sin is not in itself a thing, but a privation of good. Apart from the existence of Good, there is no sin --there is simply ....nothing. The opposite cannot be said to be true. The YingYan people like to posit is bogus. Sin has no 'mathematical absolute value'.

So God did not make sin, but agents who can rebel against their own creator. It still confounds me, but I see it is so, though I don't know how God was able to do such a thing.

Sin is also the ONLY thing, I believe, that can actually hurt --damage-- God. Eve's seed crushed the serpent's head, but he bruised her seed's heel. I believe that wound, taken for our sakes, will last throughout eternity --and that is to God's glory. He came that close to the edge of ruin, which demonstrates his enormous control over all things.

This is all very interesting stuff. What is your view on hell? Do you believe it is forever?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Being a thread which is turning toward "election", some one is bound to bring up the case of Jaccob and Esau.

Rom 9:11-13 Before the children had come into existence, or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose and his selection might be effected, not by works, but by him whose purpose it is, It was said to her, The older will be the servant of the younger. Even as it is said, I had love for Jacob, but for Esau I had hate.


This is a very specific case, there were only two sons, if free will is the key to salvation, either of these sons could have been rigteous, or both sinners. God choose to bless, Jaccob, and the point of it is that as with the law of Moses, as with prophecy, it points to the fact that "not by works", why was Jaccob chosen not becasue he was righteous, no, he was chosen becasue he was the least deserving. As the second born, he had the lower status.

Some will, say that God purposefully hated Esau, condemned him to death, but that is not the case. Condemnation happens in the following way:

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to let his wrath and his power be seen, for a long time put up with the vessels of wrath which were ready for destruction:

We see that "Yes", pharoh was forced by God to resist the signs performed on Egypt, but He had first been proved a vessle of wrath "before hand", as we see God "for a long time put up with". Which fits with the passage "God is long suffering not willing that any perish but all come to salvation", there is a long suffering "before" God dictates our direction, be it for good, or everlasting correction.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is all very interesting stuff. What is your view on hell? Do you believe it is forever?

'Forever' I think is a word God uses for our sakes, 'talking down to us kids', so to speak. In our modern thinking, anyhow, it means a long long time, time without end, in fact. But in God's economy, I think, time has nothing to do with it. (Thus it is, for example, that Christ could suffer absolutely everything that we would have suffered, were he not to be our substitute, yet be resurrected the third day. CS Lewis' whole Narnia series does a good job of showing how our worldview is not altogether 'the way of things' in this matter.) The infinity of eternity is not time, but simple God's fact. Infinity proceeds from God, as does existence and so many other things. These are not facts, in and of themselves, except as he establishes them. (In any of these statements, btw, you could substitute 'First Cause' for 'God', with equal validity.)

So the infinite punishment in the Lake of Fire, in measure according to a person's deeds, is without end, if one's understanding of God's ways can't get past the notion of time. But I think it is more accurate and useful to say that it is done without relenting, without mercy, except by the common mercy of restraint of evil which God has always practiced toward humanity and individual humans during this temporal existence. Nobody will be punished more than they deserve.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Amazing isn’t it? I was talking to someone recently about how several times in our lives we could have died, but were spared. I think everyone has those, but it’s nice for a believer to see God's hand of protection and the blessing of more time.

Many times I "should have died" but didn't. Sobering, isn't it?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible nowhere, says "God is not time-dependent", which is a man-made construct. An imagination of man.

The bible does say:

Gen 6:6-7 And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

How could God sorrow, repent, over something that He knew in minute detail in advance. He does not have total foreknowledge of every action man will perform.

God certainly has the ability to "know" how we will respond, based upon the state of our heart.

John 13:38 Jesus said in answer, Will you give up your life for me? Truly I say to you, Before the cry of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] you will have said three times that you are not my disciple.

But to blow this out to some time-traveling ability, according to Genisis is not true.

He also has general knowledge "enough to know", that sin would enter the world. The cross was planned before the foundation of the world. God knew if man had a choice the cross was needed.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So you see God as obedient to time, instead of its creator, in spite of verses like 1 Peter 1:20 which you quote to show the opposite.

I'm not saying God cannot act within time, but that he is not time dependent. God cannot be governed by external principles and be God.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

'Forever' I think is a word God uses for our sakes, 'talking down to us kids', so to speak. In our modern thinking, anyhow, it means a long long time, time without end, in fact. But in God's economy, I think, time has nothing to do with it. (Thus it is, for example, that Christ could suffer absolutely everything that we would have suffered, were he not to be our substitute, yet be resurrected the third day. CS Lewis' whole Narnia series does a good job of showing how our worldview is not altogether 'the way of things' in this matter.) The infinity of eternity is not time, but simple God's fact. Infinity proceeds from God, as does existence and so many other things. These are not facts, in and of themselves, except as he establishes them. (In any of these statements, btw, you could substitute 'First Cause' for 'God', with equal validity.)

So the infinite punishment in the Lake of Fire, in measure according to a person's deeds, is without end, if one's understanding of God's ways can't get past the notion of time. But I think it is more accurate and useful to say that it is done without relenting, without mercy, except by the common mercy of restraint of evil which God has always practiced toward humanity and individual humans during this temporal existence. Nobody will be punished more than they deserve.

Yeah I view hell as a place for those who aren't quite ready for the kingdom of God to be until they are ready. That all of the pain they experience there is necessary for them to become ready.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yeah I view hell as a place for those who aren't quite ready for the kingdom of God to be until they are ready. That all of the pain they experience there is necessary for them to become ready.

I don't. I haven't seen any reference to such a use for hell (i.e. the lake of fire) in scripture. If, on the other hand, by 'hell' you mean 'the grave', then that is a different subject, though in my opinion still not time related. I don't believe in Purgatory, for example. It's simply not Scriptural.

 

[martymonster]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

Yep, you are spot on!

Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[chad kincham]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

God knows the end from the beginning, and knows the number of days everyone will have, but chooses not to be a Calvinistic puppet-master and control freak, by decreeing every single event that happens in our lives.

And He can change.His mind about our circumstances, such as the King God said was going to die soon, but had pity on him and extended his life by fourteen years.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

I wouldn't say he's micromanaging our life but I would say that he's involved in every detail of our life whether we know it or not. Have you ever looked back at a situation in your life and get that aha moment where you were able to piece together God's involvement in putting you through a difficult situation and getting you through? Well I believe that exists at every level of our life. We just can't see it because we don't think every part of our life matters. If this is true then the implications are huge. It means our life matters, that everything we do matters. That God is in full control of our life and we need not worry over anything. If you believe God is involved in every element of your life then you are free to act authentically without worry about saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing for you know God is in control. Or you could just not believe God is in control and then you have a battle on your hands because you have to figure whos running the show, but I can assure you if you take that path it's not you.

Satan is like a roaring lion, seeking to steal, kill, and destroy, and is temporarily god of this world, so we are told to put on the whole armor of God, so we can win the spiritual battle waged against us.

If our whole life is predestined, there would be no battle to win.

 

[Strong in Him]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

I believe that God takes, and gives life, but I do not believe that he planned, and controls, every detail of our lives.

 

[Strong in Him]

God has the power to get what he wants and not have it infringe on our free will. He can do this by putting us in situations that lead us to doing what he wants. We do have free will but it's layered underneath God's will.

God's will is that people believe in and accept Jesus, John 6:40.
Beyond that, I don't think he minds too much. We are here to live our lives for him and work for him. He is with us in whatever life throws at us and whatever choices we make, but I don't believe he is frustrated/angry if someone chooses to be a nurse rather than a teacher, for example.

 

[Strong in Him]

Amen brother! In fact, every little detail about everything.

No, he's not that controlling.
I had a choice about answering the posts in this thread; I have a choice about the clothes I will wear today and, apart from my voluntary work shift, what I will do, (although I chose to sign up for this shift and even to join this charity.)

 

[Strong in Him]

God knew exactly what was going to happen, because he caused it to happen.

God CAUSED Adam and Eve to sin and disobey him?
Why? So that sin would come into the world, he could punish and kill people for the sin that he had allowed to happen and that one day he could sent his beloved, sinless Son to be murdered in order to sort out the problem?

That would make him a cruel, masochistic God and not a perfect, loving heavenly Father.

 

[Silverback]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

You won't be called home until it's your time...home however, may not be what most people think.