Do you think death is random?

[chad kincham]

This "reality" you reference --is it not God's 'invention', created by him? Or do you think it 'just is'? If God is subject to it, and not its owner and master, he is not God.

The supposedly 'natural', (though it is not falsifiable), law of cause-and-effect, demands that absolutely everything is caused, and within a chain, beginning with first cause. (Well, to be fair, some like the notion of infinite regression of causes, but that is another matter --it doesn't change this point). Therefore, absolutely everything we think is random, spontaneous, chance or autonomous is not, except God[see edit]. It is illogical to even say he can 'hand off' some of it to us.

(Edit: Not at all meaning that God is chance or random.)

That doesn't mean we are robots, because robots have no will. We behave and decide according to our will, Regenerated, or At Enmity with Christ.

Just one example of Calvinistic error - sickness.

The cause of sickness is because Satan is god of this world for now, and it’s Satan who’s the thief who steals, kills, and destroys, and goes about looking for whom he may devour.

God gave dominion to Adam who lost that dominion to the devil when he sinned.

The cause of sickness isn’t God, though 5 pointers think every single thing that happens is due to Gods decree - the cause is Satan.

Jesus went about healing all those oppressed and and made sick by the devil: He never healed anyone made sick by God.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Assuming all causes of everything is God, is an assumption based on incorrect doctrine.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Just one example of Calvinistic error - sickness.

The cause of sickness is because Satan is god of this world for now, and it’s Satan who’s the thief who steals, kills, and destroys, and goes about looking for whom he may devour.

God gave dominion to Adam who lost that dominion to the devil when he sinned.

The cause of sickness isn’t God, though 5 pointers think every single thing that happens is due to Gods decree - the cause is Satan.

Jesus went about healing all those oppressed and and made sick by the devil: He never healed anyone made sick by God.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Assuming all causes of everything is God, is an assumption based on incorrect doctrine.

You say, "Assuming all causes of everything is God, is an assumption based on incorrect doctrine." It's also a misrepresented doctrine. 'God causes all things' is not the same as 'all causes of everything is God'. 'God caused that sin be' is simple logic. God being first cause, and omniscient, implies intent. It also logically follows that first cause began (at least) whatever else follows.

But, 'God caused that sin be', does not at all imply that sin was not caused by other effects down the chain of causation. Satan began it, Satan rebelled. God, outrageously to my mind --I cannot even now understand how it was possible-- created beings that can rebel against their own creator! God uses means to accomplish his ends. Almost all effects are also causes. So there are other causes, down the chain from first cause.

An admittedly poor and incomplete example, to show my point: Rather than have my dog, as is his habit, jump up on me while his feet are muddy, I will train him while his feet are not muddy; when tempted, he will jump up on me, and I will correct him then. Does that mean I tempted him, or that he had no choice --that I forced him to jump up on me? No! HE jumped up on me. I chose the time and place for him to do his own will, and as I planned, he did exactly what I expected.

So Satan is indeed the father of sin --not God-- and Calvinism says no different.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God CAUSED Adam and Eve to sin and disobey him?
Why? So that sin would come into the world, he could punish and kill people for the sin that he had allowed to happen and that one day he could sent his beloved, sinless Son to be murdered in order to sort out the problem?

That would make him a cruel, masochistic God and not a perfect, loving heavenly Father.

Do you suppose God himself, the very creator and designer of FACT and REALITY, is somehow subject to mere CHANCE?

Yes, your representation of the fact would imply that he is cruel. But your representation is false and one-sided. He did not cause Adam and Eve to disobey SO THAT (my emphasis) he could punish and kill people. The very fact that he punishes and kills people should be enough to show you that there is a lot more to the story than that --after all, what would Omnipotence gain from creating for the purpose of destruction? That would be boring, to say the least. Illogical proposition. So he had other purposes for it.

Our perfect, loving heavenly Father caused Adam to sin SO THAT he can demonstrate his love for us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, he's not that controlling.
I had a choice about answering the posts in this thread; I have a choice about the clothes I will wear today and, apart from my voluntary work shift, what I will do, (although I chose to sign up for this shift and even to join this charity.)

Calvinism says no different. Of course you had a choice, and of course you chose. How does that counter the fact that it was predestined by God?

Look at it this way: According to the law of causation, everything is caused, except first cause. Therefore, whether directly or indirectly, your options and choices are indeed caused. They do not cease to be options or choices merely because they are caused. The fact that first cause is the original source of that chain of causation does not change the fact that you had options and you chose.

As with all conversations that take this turn, you will object that if they were caused, they were not actually options, and you may even go so far as to say that if they were caused they were not choices. Ok, then, as you wish, but you can't show the difference between whether God is at the head of the causation or not; so they were indeed caused. I say the supposed options were, to the chooser, real options, and so he chose according to his momentary preference, just as God planned for him to do.

Just a note: the word, 'option', implies by derivation, 'mere choice'. It does not imply actual equal possibility.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'll put it this way, if someone decides to jump in front of a moving bus, I wouldn't say that's something God planned.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'll put it this way, if someone decides to jump in front of a moving bus, I wouldn't say that's something God planned.

How not?

 

[Ceallaigh]

How not?

Because I'm not a Calvinist

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because I'm not a Calvinist

Aha! Well said. As logic and Scripture demonstrate, God causes all things. (No, I didn't say God causes them directly).

You have identified yourself!

 

[Ceallaigh]

Aha! Well said. As logic and Scripture demonstrate, God causes all things. (No, I didn't say God causes them directly).

I'll agree with that, and that's pretty much what I meant.

You have identified yourself!

I only identified what I'm not. You'll have to figure out the rest

 

[Sorn]

Do you suppose God himself, the very creator and designer of FACT and REALITY, is somehow subject to mere CHANCE?

Yes, your representation of the fact would imply that he is cruel. But your representation is false and one-sided. He did not cause Adam and Eve to disobey SO THAT (my emphasis) he could punish and kill people. The very fact that he punishes and kills people should be enough to show you that there is a lot more to the story than that --after all, what would Omnipotence gain from creating for the purpose of destruction? That would be boring, to say the least. Illogical proposition. So he had other purposes for it.

Our perfect, loving heavenly Father caused Adam to sin SO THAT he can demonstrate his love for us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

"Our perfect, loving heavenly Father caused Adam to sin SO THAT he can demonstrate his love for us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"
There is some really odd theology out there that's for sure
God in no way caused Adam or Eve to sin. They chose freely to sin. God set them up for success, but they still blew it (as we all probably would).
This explains it perfectly: Theological FAQ: Eden as Set-up

 

[Sorn]

You won't be called home until it's your time...home however, may not be what most people think.

No, thats not the case. Noone is 'called home', except on a very few rare occasions, like maybe 1 in a billion or so, like real rare.
Even if war, accident, bad luck, crime or disease doesn't get us, our bodies will just wear out one day and we cease to live.
All God has to do is wait. He knows when we are going to die and how (or when we leave this Earth, like Enoch etc) but He does not in anyway cause it (with a few exceptions like those in the bible).

 

[Sorn]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

No, He actually plans very little if anything of the average persons life. He doesn't need to. Except for few chosen events & or people here or there to have history go in the right general direction.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"Our perfect, loving heavenly Father caused Adam to sin SO THAT he can demonstrate his love for us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"
There is some really odd theology out there that's for sure
God in no way caused Adam or Eve to sin. They chose freely to sin. God set them up for success, but they still blew it (as we all probably would).
This explains it perfectly: Theological FAQ: Eden as Set-up

So, plan B? That implies a small god, who must fly by the seat of his pants to accomplish what he set out to do, subject to the whims of chance and mere creatures.

Illogical, not to mention, unscriptural.

Do you honestly think that God did not originally plan to die for those he intended to be with him in heaven?

 

[Sorn]

So, plan B? That implies a small god, who must fly by the seat of his pants to accomplish what he set out to do, subject to the whims of chance and mere creatures.

Illogical, not to mention, unscriptural.

Do you honestly think that God did not originally plan to die for those he intended to be with him in heaven?

No, how about a God so big that He can deal with any situation?

He probably knew they would sin & what it would take to save them, but He didn't set them up to sin, rather the exact opposite, He set them up for success. He is blameless in their fall.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The bible says that "All things work together for the good of those who love God", God does have a way of working each situation out to our benefit. But He is not a cruel taskmaster, micromanaging our every step, to His will.

Roman 8 states in full context:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
If I may, how does God have a way of working each situation to our benefit and at the same time not micromanage our life? This passage has been used to prove predestination a Calvanist view. Thanks for engaging.

 

[cfposter]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

This is correct. God does plan your entire life. Augustine of Hippo wrote a work called On Free Will and Grace and it goes into all of this. It explains how God steers the hearts of all men. The Bible talks of this in Romans.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

God controls the framework in which all thought and decision is made. Free will is not erased just because God is in complete control. In fact, as a result of having free will, we still sin according to our own moral will to sin and so our conscience bears witness of our sins. But God is RESPONSIBLE for our fallen state. For God knew Adam would sin. God knows the end from the beginning. God knew and purposed for Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. If God didn't want them to take of it, He could have protected it as He did the Tree of Life after they sinned.

But God desired for them to know Good and Evil because God knows Good and Evil. And God is creating the GOD Kind - His Family and therefore, they had to know Good and Evil also.

 

[Sorn]

This is correct. God does plan your entire life. Augustine of Hippo wrote a work called On Free Will and Grace and it goes into all of this. It explains how God steers the hearts of all men. The Bible talks of this in Romans.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

God controls the framework in which all thought and decision is made. Free will is not erased just because God is in complete control. In fact, as a result of having free will, we still sin according to our own moral will to sin and so our conscience bears witness of our sins. But God is RESPONSIBLE for our fallen state. For God knew Adam would sin. God knows the end from the beginning. God knew and purposed for Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. If God didn't want them to take of it, He could have protected it as He did the Tree of Life after they sinned.

But God desired for them to know Good and Evil because God knows Good and Evil. And God is creating the GOD Kind - His Family and therefore, they had to know Good and Evil also.

God in no way caused Adam or Eve to sin. They chose freely to sin. God set them up for success, but they still blew it (as we all probably would).
This explains it perfectly: Theological FAQ: Eden as Set-up

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, how about a God so big that He can deal with any situation?

He probably knew they would sin & what it would take to save them, but He didn't set them up to sin, rather the exact opposite, He set them up for success. He is blameless in their fall.

Your implication here is that if he intended for them to fall that he is to be blamed. Read Romans 9.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

God is RESPONSIBLE for our fallen state.

This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I do hope one day you will know Him.

 

[Cis.jd]

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

I don't know if God was in control of every person who died. There are some who died because of their own life style, to those who had their lives taken away from them by someone or something else. I don't think he is the one who says: "this guy will die because this other guy will murder him.. or he will get into a very bad car accident". God can probably for-see it but being the one controlling it is something I can't believe is generally true.